Proposal for the Standardization of Mod Packaging

[nosisab]

LHammonds is right. I shouldn't have posted that without waiting longer. For now, it's hidden from the public until we get more input and work out the kinks as well as get the go ahead from the mod manager programmers, other mod developers, etcetera.

I think this thread was good. Not because some 'de facto' standard should arise here. Indeed most of the discussion was about part of a standardization, the file organization. This organization is by itself a good thing, where it isn't against the game engine it help identifying relevant mods, it's folders and so its files, this is yet more meaningful on uninstalling certain mod than even installing it. But is only part of the a larger panorama that could minimizes the chances of conflicts and load ordering to a minimal.

 

I hope saying than the end user should concern to unpack just in the game root folder isn't confused with me saying all the files should go there, such would be against everything I said, mainly where even the idea of grouping calls for greater control. What is said is the mod is packed such a way it cares to place the complete structure, should begin with only a /data folder at it's first level if needed so, but some utilities may claim that root for their files... to the end user wouldn't matter. And just talking about an ideal world I don't even believe is that simple to achieve. Indeed the installation under a MM charge is the better, OBMM (FOMM?) like from the start... minimal user handwork installing, uninstalling mods. give the modder some standardization like the ones proposed by Wrye, the utilities developers close toward integrating their works in a consistent way. If this is achieved soon enough, most of the conflicting issues that plagued Oblivion would be minimized. What a wonderful world, I wish it were so easy.

 

Let aside the way the user choses to store their mod installers... I save mines in a similar way Dezdimona or Myrmaad said (sorry I'm not sure without verifying)... They go under a directory /Games Stuff classified by game names, classified by utilities, misc, mods, patches ... /Mods classified by groups like Weapons, Gears, Quest, Environment, Misc, etc... The Games Stuff folder being not even in the whole partition "Games" where the actual games are installed... But this is just a way I do things, each one does the way he deems better.

 

Edit: Forgot to say, each mod I download goes first to a Pool, from there to a /Under test folder ... and if it pass the test, and only so, is moved to it's final category folder.

[hoots7]

This is nice, but it's also a lot to ask of people. Okay, not a lot, but given that they're already spending time and effort to create something to be given away for free, it can seem like a lot. Really, I would settle for a Readme file that actually makes sense, and has more than, "Made by *mod maker's name*, please don't steal my textures!" Something which is far too common.

 

However, a lot of beginning modders, especially don't really know how best to package their mods, so they just do the best they can. But lots of people use LHammonds Readme generator, so why not keep this example of file structure with that resource or linked to it.

Understand though, that some modders use different file structures because their mods require a different approach.

 

And really there's no real problem with a structure that reads:

 

bongos/data

/meshes

/textures

 

Terming that "outrageous" is a bit outrageous.

 

I personally prefer a meshes and textures substructure as well so instead of

Oblivion/data/meshes/bongo.nif

I much prefer

Oblivion/data/meshes/bongos/bongo.nif

Oblivion/data/meshes/bongos/bongo_black.nif

&

Oblivion/data/textures/bongos/bongo_brown.dds

Oblivion/data/textures/bongos/bongo_black.dds

for example.

 

It would be easy and intuitive to standardize "SS" for the Screenshot directory:

Oblivion/data/SS/bongos/bongo_screen.jpg

 

But for readmes, less so.

I do hate generically named "readme.txt" readmes, which means that I either have to skip unpacking them or rename them myself.

I agree with myrmaad, I like his sub structure (sub directory) and we should also stick with the example LHammonds has laid out for us.

No matter what the standardization winds up being I still think it is a great idea to have one.

[Circuitous]

Well that was quick and didn't really get much feedback from the community before stamping it as a done deal. I didn't even get a chance to reply and explain that the "LHammonds Example" by Circuitous was done incorrectly.

 

- Grouping assets is a good idea but I think they need to reside under the appropriate sub-folder. Such as Meshes\Weapons\MyMod\ and NOT Meshes\MyMod but this is my personal opinion which can be debated but my reasoning is to match the design of the game architecture as much as possible rather than going off the beaten track. Keep in mind that some content HAS TO be placed under certain sub-folders before the game will work correctly. Textures\Menus is just one example.

- It is NEVER a good idea to include the mod's version number as part of the plugin name. NEVER. Well, there might be a need but 99.99% of mods should not include a version number and many have learned that lesson the hard way.

- The only "mention" of a version number should be inside the readme file, the description and the archive filename itself. The other filenames should not contain version numbers. If screenshots need to be noted as to which version it depicts, it should be part of the image.

 

- Apologies for this. In my defense, it wasn't a weapons/armor mod. :whistling: But yes, a new example would probably be a good idea for that reason alone.

- You're right.

- Correct.

 

Author name as part of the mod name? Really? Some individuals do that for recognition and branding but I do not think it would be wise to make it a "standard." What about mods that involved several authors / contributers? Who gets their name on the file name? How long can it get before it becomes ridiculous?

 

I never proposed the title to be part of the standard. The mod was simply "Bingo's Bongos." If your mod is "The Darker Part of A Wide Field" then you'd use that instead.

 

I will never support a method where people are advised to extract an archive to the game's program directory where the .EXE files live. The "Data" folder is there for a reason which is to separate content from the game engine. If it becomes "acceptable" to package and extract mods to the "Fallout3" folder, do not be surprised if you see .esp plugins, readmes, screenshots, etc. showing up beside Fallout3.exe as well as the games "readme.txt" being overwritten by a mod file readme. This would be a poor mistake.

 

I've been saying this since the beginning, so I assume this is no longer directed at me.

 

The standard should really be driven by tools as it is a bit much for every-day modders to figure out the 200 steps to standards compliance.

 

That is why I have promoted things such as creating OMOD-Ready archives where the mods have already been added to a mod delivery tool and is the output of such a tool in a common and expected delivery format (how files are arranged in the mod).

 

I've never made an "OMOD-ready Archive" but I've used them before - it doesn't seem any easier than just using your mod's name in a couple extra folders and remembering not to pack the Data folder. Unless, of course, it's an automated process. Of course if it's automated anyway then what's wrong with one of these suggestions?

 

Other helpful tools such as TES4Files was brilliant and a major time-saver to package your mod files (if you had more than just a plugin) and ensured that you consistently produce a high-quality archive by not "missing" files that should have been included in the archive. Here is a tutorial I wrote on how to prep mod files using TES4Files. I hope a similar tool will be created for FO3. NOTE: The TES4Files author wanted the "Data" folder included in the distribution archive but my tutorial steps around it. I've already stated why mods should not be made to extract to the game folder.

 

The "Mod Info" folder would also need to be discussed much further in greater detail. I am not sure having a sub-folder that contains a space is a good idea for several reasons. NOBODY is releasing mods in this fashion and like I said before, if it is not being done this way, there needs to be a VERY strong case for why it should be done. A prettier file listing is NOT a valid argument to harass authors into re-packaging their mods to fit that standard. If a mod manager can "pick up" files (readme / screenshots) in the archive regardless of where they are located and handle them appropriately, this is a moot point. It would be even better if said manager could then export / package the archive for distribution and places those files in a truly standard location.

 

Until you fellas get actual feedback from big names such as Timeslip, Wyre, MentalElf and others, this is just another "talk" page that has no capability of enforcing a policy...let alone call it a standard.

 

 

For a standard to work, it needs to be widely accepted and supported. Posting an article and calling it a standard isn't going to make this happen and might actually work against it if done prematurely.

 

I didn't intend to harrass anybody into doing anything, for what that's worth. I'm just making a proposal - I want the input of "big-name" modders, people who actually do this stuff on a regular basis. It won't be my job to enact any such standard - it'll be theirs. I wanted to get the ball rolling and have everyone discussing it until we could all find something we agree with. Yes, a few people got excited and took off out of the gate a little early, but that wasn't my intention.

 

This thread have good intentions but the process is being done backward. The first thing, this can't be easily changed, is keep in mind the best is the way the engine will find the mod and locate every file it needs. This requires deep understanding of the way the engine works. People from OBMM is working just now at doing the FOMM and they have experience with it already. Second, the whichever mod manager will be and I think FOMM is a good candidate if not the only, need a way to organize things the simpler and human readable way possible.

 

I've read this post like twice and I still have no idea what you're talking about. All I'm saying is, lay your mods out in a sensible, understandable fashion so that people know what they're installing, it's easy for external programs to understand the contents, and uninstallation is a relatively painless process. I fail to see how the engine's even really involved.

 

Also, and I'm just going to say it, expecting everyone to rely on external programs is a far bigger pipe dream than getting a bunch of people to put some thought into their file structure. What if I don't want FOMM trying to handle everything?

 

If your mod can't be installed manually, you have a problem. That's all I'm saying.

[nosisab]

This thread have good intentions but the process is being done backward. The first thing, this can't be easily changed, is keep in mind the best is the way the engine will find the mod and locate every file it needs. This requires deep understanding of the way the engine works. People from OBMM is working just now at doing the FOMM and they have experience with it already. Second, the whichever mod manager will be and I think FOMM is a good candidate if not the only, need a way to organize things the simpler and human readable way possible.

 

I've read this post like twice and I still have no idea what you're talking about. All I'm saying is, lay your mods out in a sensible, understandable fashion so that people know what they're installing, it's easy for external programs to understand the contents, and uninstallation is a relatively painless process. I fail to see how the engine's even really involved.

 

Also, and I'm just going to say it, expecting everyone to rely on external programs is a far bigger pipe dream than getting a bunch of people to put some thought into their file structure. What if I don't want FOMM trying to handle everything?

 

If your mod can't be installed manually, you have a problem. That's all I'm saying.

It's Ok, I think this thread was good as stated before. I'm just pointing the name conventions and directory structure pertains to a part of the possible "standardization" which is the "structure organization".

 

Standards are very complex to be made and they must cover several aspects of the process. To make a good mod one should be aware of important things like potential conflicts; it is good having a way to say the installer "where" put the esp in the load order... several 'small' things that plagues Oblivion modding yet today. Let alone other aspects like good programing practices, and blah blah, what indeed here is not the place to discuss.

 

Yet the structure organization is relevant enough to stand for itself in a thread, but even here the engine have the ultimate saying (at some places it will require a skeleton, a male/female definition, etc), albeit in this sense it have good flexibility.

 

One of the bad things such hurried "organization" would face is conflicting with the planed Mod Manager implementation. No good to anyone, modders, utility creators and, mainly, the end user. But I sense many mods will be made before even the CS being released (if it will be), and unless things changes, the MM will wait for a time, at least, to it...

 

So, if at least, a minimal organization is achieved it will help, but honestly, it already is done in Oblivion, maybe some Fallout 3 modders never did a mod to Oblivion, probably several will come from the 'anarchic' systems as pointed here somewhere above, and tho these, knowing Fallout 3 uses a relatively well structured organization may help, although that structure isn't well known yet (People is working to open the ESMs, ESPs, XMLs. INIs... graphical files and such, and trying to make sense of their structures). For now, anything beyond placing folders with the modname at the each "possible" substructure root is a shot in the dark.

 

PS: Last but not the least. A 'dirty' mod will be a dirty mod don't matter how well defined where its files will be placed.

[LHammonds]

I think the best clarification is the use of examples in various cases to see how things would be applied as well as finding any weaknesses for specific scenarios.

 

So I will start with the following examples and add on to them as I have time (keep in mind I have not made any Fallout 3 mods, this is just based on Oblivion modding knowledge)

 

Examples formatted based on LHammonds' recommendations:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: Texture Replacer

Mod Category: Armor

Mod Title: Captain America Enclave ReTex

 

Textures\Armor\EnclavePowerArmor\EnclaveArmor01.dds
Textures\Armor\EnclavePowerArmor\EnclaveGlove01.dds
Textures\Armor\EnclavePowerArmor\EnclaveHelmet01.dds
Captain America Enclave ReTex Readme.txt
Captain America Enclave ReTex-1.jpg
Captain America Enclave ReTex-2.jpg
Captain America Enclave ReTex-3.jpg

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: New Weapons

Mod Category: Weapons

Mod Title: Lightsabers

 

Meshes\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_blue.nif
Meshes\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_red.nif
Meshes\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_green.nif
Textures\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_blue.dds
Textures\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_red.dds
Textures\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_green.dds
Textures\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_g.dds
Textures\Weapons\Lightsabers\lightsaber_n.dds
Textures\Menus\Icons\Lightsaber\lightsaber_blue.dds
Textures\Menus\Icons\Lightsaber\lightsaber_red.dds
Textures\Menus\Icons\Lightsaber\lightsaber_green.dds
Lightsabers Readme.txt
Lightsabers.esp
Lightsabers Menu.jpg
Lightsabers 1st Person.jpg
Lightsabers 3rd Person.jpg
Lightsabers Map Location.jpg

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: Texture Replacer

Mod Category: User Interface

Mod Title: US Army UI

 

researching...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: New Sounds

Mod Category: Audio

Mod Title: Lightsaber FX

 

researching...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: Body Replacer

Mod Category: Models and Textures

Mod Title: Muscular Bodies

 

researching...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mod Type: New Animation

Mod Category: Animation

Mod Title: Poser

 

researching...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ComicKaze]

Ideally everybody would make esps or like Oblivion we could hopefully get an omod system going but you know what? I am grateful enough for the amount of work people put into their mods not to be so picky as to how they package them. I don't mind hunting for files or even making the archive invalidation line myself if they don't include it. It's the nature of the beast.

[LHammonds]

Yes but having a standard or some "document" to read on how to do things makes it much easier for a modder to release a mod and avoid tons of newbie questions.

 

It also helps having tools to make this process easier...thus allowing a relatively new modder crank out very professional-like mods that are well-organized in such a way that veteran players can easily adapt such as an easy-to-understand file package and a detailed readme covering most of the commonly asked questions (description, install/uninstall, permissions, history, etc.).

 

Once these tutorials and tools are made available, it becomes easy for somebody new to modding to pick up where the experts left off...thus learning from the older generation and not making the same mistakes and raising the bar of quality amongst all mods...something I think all modders appreciate.

 

This allows very high-level tutorials to be made which point to more detailed tutorials allowing people that want to mod to find the information they want very quickly and even be able to tell if something is more complex than they originally thought...thus saving their precious time for other activities. Look at this page I created called How To Make Mods which describes the high-level areas around the different approaches to making mods.

 

LHammonds

[Handbasket]

Modders: please refrain from the extreme laziness endemic in the mod community, which leads folks to make readmes named "readme.txt".

 

Use "modname_readme.txt", please.

 

And if you don't want to include a readme file at all, please don't upload your mod.

 

Thank you.

 

Also, with regard to the topic... is it permissible to rate mods based on how they are packaged? I have done this, and will continue, until told otherwise. I usually deduct a point if there is no readme, and I have to go back online, find the mod at nexus, and read the (if any) description again. I also do so if the package gives no clue whatsoever as to which folders the textures or meshes must be placed.

 

A mod I downloaded today got an 8 for those reasons. No readme, and the mod was packaged as a zip/rar, unzipped it was a folder /modname/, containing a few textures. No idea where to put them...they should have been inside a /textures/dungeons/xxxxx folder. Had to go back to Nexus and read the modder's description.

 

If you're smart and hard-working enough to make a mod, packaging it so it is easy to install should be no problem. Same with naming your readme something besides readme.txt. Is it too much to ask?

 

-HB

[sumoftwosins]

So many people need to follow something. The mods I make... as far as meshes and textures, I have sub-folder with my mods name. It's a pain in the ass trying to sort whose textures are whoses with everyone using the default locations.

 

So take 5 minutes and move all your new stuff to your own sub-directory.

 

I also recommend people who are re-doing items to make duplicates and rename them. No conflicts when you have 10 people doing a new version of the same thing.

[Skree000]

I think this thread is good. Its a wakeup call to the new modders in the community that either A. Dont know, or B. dont care where their files go.

 

File structure and naming conventions are KING

 

If you want your mod enjoyed and thoroughly played, ease of use is essential, content aside.

 

 

A good post, thanks!