Help! External Changes Confusion

[AugustaCalidia]

 

@Zanderat

 

Please let us know how this turns out for you.

 

@HTR

 

 

Like I said, I think the part of the message in Parentheses is Incorrect.

 

Why is it incorrect?

 

 

Consider this, Why would the "SAVE" option (Which even says SAVE CHANGES in the Drop Down), remove the files permanently?

 

Wouldn't SAVE, (SAVE CHANGES) actually do what it says and SAVE THE CHANGES?

I would never clikc on something that says SAYS CHANGES, that actually REMOVES FIles Permanently

 

There's something in that message that is wrong, because I was always comfortable hitting SAVE CHANGES before, until I took the time to read the message, and now the SAVE option claims it's going to DELETE things permanently.

 

According to the Vortex message in Zanderat's thumbnail, links were deleted outside of Vortex. If it's your wish to make those deletions permanent, then you "save" this new game state in which the links no longer exist. If that's not your wish, then you "revert" to the game state preexisting the deletion of the links. That seems perfectly clear to me.

 

EDIT: Admittedly, however, it took me a while to figure this out when I first encountered it in Vortex many moons ago. Somewhere in this forum in 2018 there was a big discussion about the terminology employed for external changes and how confusing it could be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the current terminology and explanations were a result of that discussion.

[HadToRegister]

"External changes" means something outside of Vortex has interfered with the Data folder, in this case links have been deleted somehow.

 

 

"Save change" makes permanent any changes that have occurred, "Revert change" will change things back to the way they were before.

 

"Save change" on a modified .esp will copy those changes to the original file in the staging folder. Thats not what has happened here though, links have been deleted. Hitting "Save change" on that will remove the original files from the staging folder too. "Revert change" would restore the links (and preserve the original files).

 

I agree its easy to get confused though been there myself a few times.

 

 

 

 

 

According to the Vortex message in Zanderat's thumbnail, links were deleted outside of Vortex. If it's your wish to make those deletions permanent, then you "save" this new game state in which the links no longer exist. If that's not your wish, then you "revert" to the game state preexisting the deletion of the links. That seems perfectly clear to me.

 

 

 

 

OK, from the looks of it, what's happening then, is what I initially thought?

 

That because he uninstalled Majestic Mountains, that by doing so, vortex deleted a bunch of links to all of the other Landscape Mods in the list, that interacted in some way, or had their textures/meshes overwritten by Majestic Mountains?

 

And now he must decide whether to Revert those changes or make the link removal Permanent by SAVING?

[AugustaCalidia]

@HTR

 

 

And now he must decide whether to Revert those changes or make the link removal Permanent by SAVING?

Yes.

 

Also, please note the edits to my earlier post. Do you remember the forum discussion that I alluded to?

[HadToRegister]

@HTR

 

 

And now he must decide whether to Revert those changes or make the link removal Permanent by SAVING?

Yes.

 

Also, please note the edits to my earlier post. Do you remember the forum discussion that I alluded to?

 

 

Sort of, because the first time I ran into this same message that Zanderat got, it confused the hell out of me.

I usually just hit SAVE CHANGES, because I pretty much have every single ESP/ESM in my load order edited, and there's no way, I want to Revert them.

 

However, I "think" I'm getting it now, this is talking about Editing an ESP and "Breaking" the Link from the Mod Staging Folder, and actually physically writing the ESP to the Data folder?

 

I that's the case, That's exactly how I want it to work.

I used to do that with NMM too, edit the ESP, and break the Links.

 

Am I understanding it better now?

 

 

[AugustaCalidia]

 

@HTR

 

 

And now he must decide whether to Revert those changes or make the link removal Permanent by SAVING?

Yes.

 

Also, please note the edits to my earlier post. Do you remember the forum discussion that I alluded to?

 

 

Sort of, because the first time I ran into this same message that Zanderat got, it confused the hell out of me.

I usually just hit SAVE CHANGES, because I pretty much have every single ESP/ESM in my load order edited, and there's no way, I want to Revert them.

 

However, I "think" I'm getting it now, this is talking about Editing an ESP and "Breaking" the Link from the Mod Staging Folder, and actually physically writing the ESP to the Data folder?

 

I that's the case, That's exactly how I want it to work.

I used to do that with NMM too, edit the ESP, and break the Links.

 

Am I understanding it better now?

 

 

 

If I have understood your example correctly, I think the correct answer is "yes." However, what do you mean by "actually physically writing the ESP to the Data folder?" Are you talking about ESP edits in the game folder made by xEdit and/or the CK?

[HadToRegister]

 

If I have understood your example correctly, I think the correct answer is "yes." However, what do you mean by "actually physically writing the ESP to the Data folder?" Are you talking about ESP edits to the game folder made by xEdit and/or the CK?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. what I mean is this

 

 

1. Mod Staging Folder with ESP--------------------------------------->Data Folder with HARDLINK to ESP

 

2. I edit ESP with CK or (preferably) Xedit.

 

3. Mod Staging Folder with Esp---------//HARDLINK SNIPPED//--------->Data Folder with PHYSICAL WRITTEN ESP.

 

Is the best way to portray it without me spending time in Photoshop doing it

[AugustaCalidia]

 

 

If I have understood your example correctly, I think the correct answer is "yes." However, what do you mean by "actually physically writing the ESP to the Data folder?" Are you talking about ESP edits to the game folder made by xEdit and/or the CK?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. what I mean is this

 

 

1. Mod Staging Folder with ESP--------------------------------------->Data Folder with HARDLINK to ESP

 

2. I edit ESP with CK or (preferably) Xedit.

 

3. Mod Staging Folder with Esp---------//HARDLINK SNIPPED//--------->Data Folder with PHYSICAL WRITTEN ESP.

 

Is the best way to portray it without me spending time in Photoshop doing it

 

 

Thank you for the chart. It really helps me to understand what you're saying. Returning to your original question, I answer "yes."

 

At the same time, your example makes me keenly aware of my ignorance about what actually happens under the hood when one edits and/or deletes an ESP in a Vortex managed game.

 

My problem stems in part from the fact that your example does not describe Zanderat's case. He did not edit any ESP's. Rather, he removed an entire mod with all of its content, including an ESP. When he did that, what happened under the hood? Were links actually deleted from the game data folder, or were they simply marked for deletion, pending further action? Whatever, Zanderat's choice was to enforce the deletion (I.e., save) or to cancel the deletion (i.e., revert).

 

In your example of editing an ESP in the game data folder, is the ESP link deleted ("snipped"), marked for deletion, or neither one, but simply altered? Whatever, if one saves the edit rather than reverting, how does the edit make its way into the Mod Staging Folder and thus become a permanent feature of the mod in question?

 

Regardless of my confusion about all of this, the fact remains that "save" means to keep the changes made (whether by the addition or subtraction of mod content), and "revert" means to undo the changes.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

My problem stems in part from the fact that your example does not describe Zanderat's case. He did not edit any ESP's. Rather, he removed an entire mod with all of its content, including an ESP. When he did that, what happened under the hood? Were links actually deleted from the game data folder, or were they simply marked for deletion, pending further action? Whatever, Zanderat's choice was to enforce the deletion (I.e., save) or to cancel the deletion (i.e., revert).

 

In your example of editing an ESP in the game data folder, is the ESP link deleted ("snipped"), marked for deletion, or neither one, but simply altered? Whatever, if one saves the edit rather than reverting, how does the edit make its way into the Mod Staging Folder and thus become a permanent feature of the mod in question?

 

Regardless of my confusion about all of this, the fact remains that "save" means to keep the changes made (whether by the addition or subtraction of mod content), and "revert" means to undo the changes.

 

 

CAPS used for EMPHASIS

 

 

OK, Imma try this....spit balling here...

 

He has

 

Realistic Water 2 - LOOSE FILES Textures/Meshes

Sept landscapes - LOOSE FILES Textures/Meshes

xLodgen output

Sky Flora Overhaul - LOOSE FILES Textures/Meshes

Northern shore - LOOSE FILES Textures/Meshes

 

Installed

 

He installs

 

Majestic Mountains - LOOSE FILES Textures/Meshes

 

Now....here's yet ANOTHER Landscape mod, being installed on top of all of those other landscape mods, which most likely have some conflicting textures/meshes etc

 

During the installation of Majestic Mountains, once it's finished, any and all of the LOOSE FILES from Majestic Mountains, and the other mods I pointed out, are overwriting, or being overwritten by whichever mods are being told to LOAD BEFORE and LOAD AFTER.

In other words...Being Externally Edited/Changed during the Manage Rule Process, so yes indeed Augusta, as you said "Under the hood"

 

Meaning there's a LOT of Files being overwritten, deleted etc by Vortex in order to accommodate the load order.

 

Now....When Vortex needs to deploy, it complains about all of those External Changes (Which I don't agree with, if my Hypothesis is right....this should be Standard operating procedure

 

Anyway, this is what I'm trying to point out, is that maybe Vortex is not handling exchanging/removing/installing/replacing/swapping/ meshes/textures as it should and is detecting its own file operations and making an error if the number of files goes over a certain limit?

[AugustaCalidia]

@HTR

 

 

Anyway, this is what I'm trying to point out, is that maybe Vortex is not handling exchanging/removing/installing/replacing/swapping/ meshes/textures as it should and is detecting its own file operations and making an error if the number of files goes over a certain limit?

 

Your issue here is different from (though related to) the one that puzzled me, viz., what actually happens to hardlinks in the game data folder throughout the entire "external changes" process?

 

However, your point here is an excellent one, because it raises an equally puzzling question: when does Vortex consider a change to be an external change?

 

Finally, to return to the meanings of "save" and "revert" (where this whole thread presumably started), I think soupdragon1234 has given the clearest explanation of those terms.

[AugustaCalidia]

"External changes" means something outside of Vortex has interfered with the Data folder, in this case links have been deleted somehow.

 

Because I ALWAYS hit SAVE CHANGE in order to save any changes I made to the esps.

 

"Save change" makes permanent any changes that have occurred, "Revert change" will change things back to the way they were before.

 

"Save change" on a modified .esp will copy those changes to the original file in the staging folder. Thats not what has happened here though, links have been deleted. Hitting "Save change" on that will remove the original files from the staging folder too. "Revert change" would restore the links (and preserve the original files).

 

I agree its easy to get confused though been there myself a few times.

 

 

You're hardly a "clueless n00b." Your explanation of "save change" and "revert change" is very helpful.