Laser rifle recoil

[AeonsLegend]

I'm talking about realism as far as you can take that within the confines of this game. I mean games like this aren't super realistic obviously, but they take certain facts and use them so you can understand and accept the environment. Such as gravity and the way you expect things to work on a basic level. When you put a scatter option on a laser rifle it becomes like you're firing a sniper rifle on full auto with one hand. On the other hand we have people holding a minigun straight without any sort of recoil nor injury to the user. Have you ever tried to use a full minigun without a proper anchored stand and hit a target? That's near impossible. Feels like it should be the other way around.

 

Do photons have mass? If light has no mass, why does a solar sail work?

It's energy, which is a type of mass, but it has no weight. so it cannot push, but it can be pushed.

[HeyYou]

I'm talking about realism as far as you can take that within the confines of this game. I mean games like this aren't super realistic obviously, but they take certain facts and use them so you can understand and accept the environment. Such as gravity and the way you expect things to work on a basic level. When you put a scatter option on a laser rifle it becomes like you're firing a sniper rifle on full auto with one hand. On the other hand we have people holding a minigun straight without any sort of recoil nor injury to the user. Have you ever tried to use a full minigun without a proper anchored stand and hit a target? That's near impossible. Feels like it should be the other way around.

 

Do photons have mass? If light has no mass, why does a solar sail work?

It's energy, which is a type of mass, but it has no weight. so it cannot push, but it can be pushed.

It's a 'wavicle'...... :)

 

It most certainly can push. That has been demonstrated quite some time ago. It's also the whole idea behind solar sails, or using a laser to push something thru space.

[AeonsLegend]

There's a couple things that aren't applicable in your statement HeyYou. First. Radiation pressure is only effective in outer space where there is no friction, because the momentum caused by radiation pressure is almost unnoticable. It's also not the same as a laser beam of any kind. It just works differently. A solar sail would simply not work inside the atmosphere. So a laser rifle has no recoil. At least not inside the atmpshere. It's as simple as that I'm afraid.

[HeyYou]

There's a couple things that aren't applicable in your statement HeyYou. First. Radiation pressure is only effective in outer space where there is no friction, because the momentum caused by radiation pressure is almost unnoticable. It's also not the same as a laser beam of any kind. It just works differently. A solar sail would simply not work inside the atmosphere. So a laser rifle has no recoil. At least not inside the atmpshere. It's as simple as that I'm afraid.

Oh, I am well aware that mere photon pressure isn't gonna do squat inside the atmosphere......

 

Of course, that is in our 'real' world. Now, the FO universe is based on SCIENCE!, so, things are likely a tad bit different...... after all, they developed fusion power quite some time ago.... something we STILL haven't been able to manage. Their tech may 'look' old, but, in someways, it is more advanced than ours..... The topic at discussion here is a prime example, a man-portable directed energy weapon, that actually works. And then we have plasma rifles......

 

Of course, we could get into the whole discussion about why an energy 'bolt', and not a beam? And a whole host of other nitpics, but, as has been said already in this thread.... It's a video game. :) So they don't really need a reason to do it. Simply 'it looks cool' is reason enough. (even if we don't think it does. :) )

[geala]

Laser guns would have no considerable recoil, period. There is no force involved to produce it. Recoil of powder weapons (very simplified explanation) mainly results from the explosion of the powder which tries to apply force to all directions. The force is directed forward by the chamber and barrel and because of physical laws that a force always works in both directions, so about the same force working forward also works backward. That's recoil. How it is felt actually also depends on the bullet weight, the weight of the gun, the amount of powder burned, so barrel length, how many mowing parts of the gun decrease it and so on.

 

If you think about it you also can judge about the movies in which people are flying around when hit; the shooter experiences about the same force as the person shot but usually does not fly away...

 

Why do laser guns have recoil in FO4? Why have automatics 30% less damage despite shooting the same round as semi-automatics? Gameplay balance, simply.

 

Is this kind of balance necessary? Not at all in a SPG in my opinion, therefore laser weapons have no recoil in my game and automatics have the same damage as other guns.

[Zzyxzz]

Bethesda does a lot, just for balance and gameplay reasons.

 

A bloatfly with more health than a super mutant?

NPCs sitting on the ground after they catched a rocket with their face?

 

 

But we can talk about, why do Bethesda laser rifle have recoil? Is there a special mechanic in the rifle that spins and releases, which causes the recoil? Or is the laser using a kinetic force, a development of the army to penetrate material more efficient? Everything is possible.

[StormWolf01]

In my mind, lasers would not have recoil. In some of my older game builds, lasers did not have recoil.

I can see it as a balancer mechanic... but only as that.

[AeonsLegend]

Well I have way more issues with the implementation of the minigun than any other weapon in the game. The minigun is not a portable weapon and almost completely useless even if it is an infantry type with small ammo like 5mm and very slow muzzle. A minigun normally fires 7.62×51mm NATO rounds at a minum of 2000 rounds per minute (33 per second), but upto 6000 rounds per minute. It's impossible for a human to hang on to this weapon without being blown away by recoil. There's actually cases where a minigun killed it's wielder because it wasn't mounted correctly. There's so much force behind this thing it's nuts. Even if you use a portable variant. There have been attempts to create them so you can wield one with two hands and shoot, but the recoil is really high and requires immense strength to wield, but it's still impossible to aim correctly with it. You're better off with a normal rifle in most circumstances.

 

So on one hand we have a minugun that can be hand held (and from the design it's not designed to be hand held, because hand held miniguns are much much smaller) and has 0 recoil. And then on the other hand we have a laser rifle that by definition should have no recoil, but does. Even has the most recoil in the game if you add a scatter muzzle on it. Can't hit the broad side of a barn with that thing.

 

when we talk about balance, that is not something that you fix by altering numbers. You fix this through availability. Did you get a Power Armor in Fallout 1 at the start of the game? No. Was it the most powerful armor? Yes. Introducing things like miniguns, power armor, laser weapons at the start of the game is a mistake in game design. These are more powerful weapons that should simply not be obtainable at level 1.

Edited January 17, 2020 by AeonsLegend

[HeyYou]

Well I have way more issues with the implementation of the minigun than any other weapon in the game. The minigun is not a portable weapon and almost completely useless even if it is an infantry type with small ammo like 5mm and very slow muzzle. A minigun normally fires 7.62×51mm NATO rounds at a minum of 2000 rounds per minute (33 per second), but upto 6000 rounds per minute. It's impossible for a human to hang on to this weapon without being blown away by recoil. There's actually cases where a minigun killed it's wielder because it wasn't mounted correctly. There's so much force behind this thing it's nuts. Even if you use a portable variant. There have been attempts to create them so you can wield one with two hands and shoot, but the recoil is really high and requires immense strength to wield, but it's still impossible to aim correctly with it. You're better off with a normal rifle in most circumstances.

 

So on one hand we have a minugun that can be hand held (and from the design it's not designed to be hand held, because hand held miniguns are much much smaller) and has 0 recoil. And then on the other hand we have a laser rifle that by definition should have no recoil, but does. Even has the most recoil in the game if you add a scatter muzzle on it. Can't hit the broad side of a barn with that thing.

 

when we talk about balance, that is not something that you fix by altering numbers. You fix this through availability. Did you get a Power Armor in Fallout 1 at the start of the game? No. Was it the most powerful armor? Yes. Introducing things like miniguns, power armor, laser weapons at the start of the game is a mistake in game design. These are more powerful weapons that should simply not be obtainable at level 1.

See, I have a slightly different take on that. I think EVERY weapon/armor should be availble right from the get-go. Of course, that also means that the NPC's ALSO have a chance of having those weapons/armors...... I find the whole idea of 'level scaling' to be abhorrent. Beth really took it to extremes in Oblivion.... the entire world scaled with the player. Regardless of where you went. I played for about 45 minutes, and hated it. Leveling was pointless. I didn't play again until a couple years later, when FCOM came out. The ENTIRE world was instantly unleveled. You could find any enemy, anywhere, sorta..... The further you got from civilization/roads, the meaner the enemies got, regardless of what level you were. It was possible to run into enemies that were 30+ levels beyond you. (and yes, they would make very short work of you.) THAT made the game fun to play again. You actually had to be careful.

 

I would love to see someone come up with something like that for Fallout. Make the world a whole lot more dangerous.

[AeonsLegend]

 

Well I have way more issues with the implementation of the minigun than any other weapon in the game. The minigun is not a portable weapon and almost completely useless even if it is an infantry type with small ammo like 5mm and very slow muzzle. A minigun normally fires 7.62×51mm NATO rounds at a minum of 2000 rounds per minute (33 per second), but upto 6000 rounds per minute. It's impossible for a human to hang on to this weapon without being blown away by recoil. There's actually cases where a minigun killed it's wielder because it wasn't mounted correctly. There's so much force behind this thing it's nuts. Even if you use a portable variant. There have been attempts to create them so you can wield one with two hands and shoot, but the recoil is really high and requires immense strength to wield, but it's still impossible to aim correctly with it. You're better off with a normal rifle in most circumstances.

 

So on one hand we have a minugun that can be hand held (and from the design it's not designed to be hand held, because hand held miniguns are much much smaller) and has 0 recoil. And then on the other hand we have a laser rifle that by definition should have no recoil, but does. Even has the most recoil in the game if you add a scatter muzzle on it. Can't hit the broad side of a barn with that thing.

 

when we talk about balance, that is not something that you fix by altering numbers. You fix this through availability. Did you get a Power Armor in Fallout 1 at the start of the game? No. Was it the most powerful armor? Yes. Introducing things like miniguns, power armor, laser weapons at the start of the game is a mistake in game design. These are more powerful weapons that should simply not be obtainable at level 1.

See, I have a slightly different take on that. I think EVERY weapon/armor should be availble right from the get-go. Of course, that also means that the NPC's ALSO have a chance of having those weapons/armors...... I find the whole idea of 'level scaling' to be abhorrent. Beth really took it to extremes in Oblivion.... the entire world scaled with the player. Regardless of where you went. I played for about 45 minutes, and hated it. Leveling was pointless. I didn't play again until a couple years later, when FCOM came out. The ENTIRE world was instantly unleveled. You could find any enemy, anywhere, sorta..... The further you got from civilization/roads, the meaner the enemies got, regardless of what level you were. It was possible to run into enemies that were 30+ levels beyond you. (and yes, they would make very short work of you.) THAT made the game fun to play again. You actually had to be careful.

 

I would love to see someone come up with something like that for Fallout. Make the world a whole lot more dangerous.

 

I'm not talking about scaling. I'm talking about weapon availability. This allows powerful weapons to be truly powerful, without invalidating every enemy in the game from the start. Imagine you get the Ultima Weapon right at the start of Final Finasy. It would complely kill all the fun. If you go your way and have everything available then you'd have to have some other ways to deal with it. Such as gimping weapons.

 

And I mean that with availability it also has to do with enemy scaling as you suggest. All of that is fine, as long as you cannot walk to location x at level 1 and pick up end game loot.