Omg Skyrim is gender biased!

[Derok]

Skyrim is supposed to represent the medieval world. A world made of racism, hate, ignorance, war and why not, sexism.

In my opnion there are already too much female warriors to be realistic (look at Mjoll). In almost all ancient cultures, females were basically slaves, mere objects.

I'm not sexist, but that's the truth.

In Cyrodiil, that is already in a "Renaissance" period, females are better considered, and we have female countess etc.

Said this, we don't have gay characters for the same reason we don't have sex.

 

If you want a more actual world filled with gay characters, drugs and more, I suggest you playing Fallout New Vegas.

I'm sure you'll love it.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Derok

[rhowington]

It sounds to me that what you are really saying isn't that Skyrim is gender biased (which it is) but hetrosexist. You want more realism of how things were in a medieval world, where is the raping. Yes, I said rape, a well known action by bandits and conquering armies through the ages. The latest example being what Japan did to China and Korea during World War II. You want realism of how women were treated, think of harems, slavery, and todays sex trade. Want to talk about homosexuality a thousand years ago, there wasn't a closet to come out of, it was a kill or be killed world, nobody cared about your orientation as long as you kept it private and were ready to fight when the king called.

 

Skyrim is a game and not meant to reflect reality. Females are the most modded companions because they are in demand and get the most endorsements. You give the consumer what they want just like the rest of society. If you play a fantasy game you get fantasy and not everybodies fantasy is the same but, as always, majority rules.

[Zzimith]

Skyrim is supposed to represent the medieval world. A world made of racism, hate, ignorance, war and why not, sexism.

In my opnion there are already too much female warriors to be realistic (look at Mjoll). In almost all ancient cultures, females were basically slaves, mere objects.

I'm not sexist, but that's the truth.

In Cyrodiil, that is already in a "Renaissance" period, females are better considered, and we have female countess etc.

Said this, we don't have gay characters for the same reason we don't have sex.

 

If you want a more actual world filled with gay characters, drugs and more, I suggest you playing Fallout New Vegas.

I'm sure you'll love it.

 

As I think I mentioned, we choose what parts of history we want to use in a fantasy game. There's a huge difference between Skyrim presenting a certain amount of racial issues, as long as it's directed at some obscure cat people. I think racism is fine in Skyrim as long as it's aimed at fantasy races. I don't think it'd be much appreciated by consumers if the game world showed a lot of hate towards black people or portraying black people in a stereotypical manner, do you? Why are women an exception to this?

 

What do drugs and sex have to do with gay characters? If Henrik and Bjorn instead of Henrik and Freya lived happily in a cabin by the coast, about to celebrate their upcoming anniversary, how does that introduce more sex and drugs into the game? I'm not getting your point here.

[ilikecheese1337]

Skyrim is supposed to represent the medieval world. A world made of racism, hate, ignorance, war and why not, sexism.

In my opnion there are already too much female warriors to be realistic (look at Mjoll). In almost all ancient cultures, females were basically slaves, mere objects.

I'm not sexist, but that's the truth.

In Cyrodiil, that is already in a "Renaissance" period, females are better considered, and we have female countess etc.

Said this, we don't have gay characters for the same reason we don't have sex.

 

If you want a more actual world filled with gay characters, drugs and more, I suggest you playing Fallout New Vegas.

I'm sure you'll love it.

No, no it's really not. The mediaeval world didn't have printed books, still less advanced science and magic. The races of Skyrim don't explicitly have differences in physical strength between sexes. There's no evidence of discrimination within the acutal lore, just reflections from the developer's inclinations, which I'm sure are unintentional. As for why there are no explicitly gay or lesbian characters, it's because stupid people have far too much political power.

[devilrejected]

You know Skyrim is moddable right ? Get off your ass and mod in characters you want and shut up about it.

[Lachdonin]

Ok, so, actually read the entire thing... And i have to ask a serious question. Are we actually condemning a game for reflecting the society in which it is marketed? And if so, why the hell are we targeting Skyrim with this clearly misguided attempt at bringing about social reform? Why not, say, Saints Row, or God of War, or hell, even Mass Effect (ever see an overweight person in Mass Effect?). Entertainment products reflect the socially normative values of the society in which they are produced, and it has been this way since the dawn of time (or at least people sitting around playing music).

 

Now, here is where it's my turn to rant... And this IS about the feminists and, to a lesser extent, the LGBT community... Targeting depictions in entertainment products has never been shown to be an effective way combat prejudice. Yet these groups constantly rail against any perceived slight, often resorting to attacking totally irrelevant things (look at the complaint at BlizzCon a few years ago about no gay characters in WoW) when there are legitimate complaints to be made, but are ignored. Complaining about the lack of gay NPC's in Skyrim, or the lack of disabled people, is irrelevant.

 

But why is it irrelevant? Because entertainment is often the LAST medium where changes in social values show up. Look at how long writing and illustration continued to depict Blacks after the civil rights movement. Look at how entertainment continued to depict women even after they won the right to vote. Look at how the media depicted the Japanese long after the end of WWII. Changes of this type start at the top, and work their way down, typically through legislation and education. Trying to treat the symptom doesn't do anyone any good. Particularly when everyone already recognizes the problem in the first place.

 

. The races of Skyrim don't explicitly have differences in physical strength between sexes. There's no evidence of discrimination within the acutal lore, just reflections from the developer's inclinations, which I'm sure are unintentional. As for why there are no explicitly gay or lesbian characters, it's because stupid people have far too much political power.

 

I'm sure you'll love it.

 

Not actually true. There are several established sexual divides, and dozens of established Racial divides in the Elder Scrolls. Titles and positions within organizations, affiliations with Gods and even household responsibilities (for instance, Orc women are the ones who do most of the smithing) are all established in the background, though they tend to be poorly reflected in game.

 

The point is, this type of critique is out of place because A; We all know all this anyway and B; It's doing nothing to address the cause of the problem, simply complaining about the results.

 

Specifically dealing with homosexuality, though... Bear in mind the world we're talking about. Mortality rates tend to be high, and all known races, save the Argonians (who we really know little about) put significant emphasis on bloodlines. Homosexual relationships are non-reproductive by nature (unless you include magical conception, which is rare) meaning you produce no new bodies for the grinder, as it were, and no continuation of the bloodline. The real-world prejudice is actually valid in the context of Tamrielic society. We know homosexuals exist, but because of the context relationships are likely to be short term or unofficial in order to ensure reproductivity and lineage.

 

The amount of absolute cra.... i mean, socially and sexually biased mods out there, does rather frequently churn my stomach... but again, there is the important point that these are as SYMPTOM, not the cause.

[Zzimith]

Ok, so, actually read the entire thing... And i have to ask a serious question. Are we actually condemning a game for reflecting the society in which it is marketed? And if so, why the hell are we targeting Skyrim with this clearly misguided attempt at bringing about social reform? Why not, say, Saints Row, or God of War, or hell, even Mass Effect

 

Now, here is where it's my turn to rant... And this IS about the feminists and, to a lesser extent, the LGBT community... Targeting depictions in entertainment products has never been shown to be an effective way combat prejudice. Yet these groups constantly rail against any perceived slight, often resorting to attacking totally irrelevant things (look at the complaint at BlizzCon a few years ago about no gay characters in WoW) when there are legitimate complaints to be made, but are ignored. Complaining about the lack of gay NPC's in Skyrim, or the lack of disabled people, is irrelevant.

 

But why is it irrelevant? Because entertainment is often the LAST medium where changes in social values show up. Look at how long writing and illustration continued to depict Blacks after the civil rights movement. Look at how entertainment continued to depict women even after they won the right to vote. Look at how the media depicted the Japanese long after the end of WWII. Changes of this type start at the top, and work their way down, typically through legislation and education. Trying to treat the symptom doesn't do anyone any good. Particularly when everyone already recognizes the problem in the first place.

 

The amount of absolute cra.... i mean, socially and sexually biased mods out there, does rather frequently churn my stomach... but again, there is the important point that these are as SYMPTOM, not the cause.

 

I've taken the liberty to keep the parts of your post I wanted to address. If this results in things feeling out of context, feel free to yell at me.

 

First of all, I'm not condemning a game, I'm condemning an aspect of it (albeit one that's important to me). I absolutely adore Skyrim. I've not commented on the games you mention because I haven't played them.

 

Why is it relevant to criticise a game? You're quite right games in general aren't the first to adapt to new ideas, but as I tried to describe in my original post (probably failed, didn't I), games aren't an isolated part of our culture that have the liberty to change after the rest of society. The gaming industry has no being reactionary assholes-free ticket. They are an integral part of our world and our culture and plays a role in creating our reality (as contradictory as that may sound), along with all other media. Therefore the gaming industry has a choice how to present their products to consumers like you and me. Media plays a huge part in how values in society are reproduced (or changed) and the gaming industry isn't free of responsibility here; they reach and influence billions of people (especially young people) globally, every day. To critize a game (especially one with such a large audience as Skyrim) when it reproduces values that are actually rather crappy, is more than valid as I see it.

 

I'm not prepared to discuss your views on the feminist and LGBT movement on these forums. :happy:

Edited September 23, 2013 by Zzimith

[rizon72]

All I can think of, its a game, not real life. People can say all this stuff about how something means xyz. In the end, its a fantasy game. What does on in this game won't make one bit of difference in my real world.

[Zaldir]

Fantasy games are not a reflection of real life, and as such, any gender bias, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc that goes on in these games are not there because of the views of the developers, but because it strengthens the story in some way. Racism, sexism or any other kind of real life bad thing is not a bad thing to have in such games. They are there for a reason. Starting a campaign to get rid of such "issues" in such games is pointless and bad for the medium as a whole.

Those issues are not raised in those games to make people think that they are okay in real life, they are there to strengthen a story that may revolve around such issues in that fantasy world. That is a very important word in this matter: fantasy - it is not real, and nothing in it is supposed to be construed as such.

 

Now, if you want to complain about sexism, racism or anything like that in the media, you should be focusing on "music" where they sing about such matters in a way that makes it seem legit behaviour, and in a real world setting. This is what causes kids to think it is okay. Not games. And not on these forums. Games are almost exclusively fiction, and if you can't handle sexism or racism in fiction, then you really need to re-think things and chill out. It is not there to offend the player - it is there to, again, push the story forward, or raise an issue in the world/alternative universe that the medium takes place in.

 

Stop trying to analyze and complain about such things in games, and rather spend your energy on real issues, like racism or sexism in real life. Things that actually matter.

[Shubal]

Better FPS with a gay Skyrim?

 

It's a very malleable (modding) fantasy game. It can be whatever you want it to be and is the last place I want progressive social ideas for reconstructing society baked into scripts.