Omg Skyrim is gender biased!

[Zzimith]

Fantasy games are not a reflection of real life, and as such, any gender bias, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc that goes on in these games are not there because of the views of the developers, but because it strengthens the story in some way. Racism, sexism or any other kind of real life bad thing is not a bad thing to have in such games. They are there for a reason. Starting a campaign to get rid of such "issues"in such games is pointless and bad for the medium as a whole.

 

I beg to differ, for reasons I have explained in previous replies. Games contributes to reproduce rl values, just like other media. And contrary to your opinion, I believe discussions on how sexism, homophobia and racism are present in the games we play and what effect this may have is both interesting and important. For gamers and consumers have a reflective and critical view of the games they spend hundreds of hours playing, I'd say is something to encourage. And good for the medium as a whole :smile:

Those issues are not raised in those games to make people think that they are okay in real life, they are there to strengthen a story that may revolve around such issues in that fantasy world. That is a very important word in this matter: fantasy - it is not real, and nothing in it is supposed to be construed as such.

 

I agree. I think (and hope) it's an expression of ignorance and/or neglect from the designers' side. I don't propose Bethesda hate women or gay people.

 

Now, if you want to complain about sexism, racism or anything like that in the media, you should be focusing on "music" where they sing about such matters in a way that makes it seem legit behaviour, and in a real world setting. This is what causes kids to think it is okay.

Not games. And not on these forums.

 

But this is the forum for discussions of the game Skyrim, right? If I'd feel inclined to discuss sexism in music, I'd do that somewhere else.

Games are almost exclusively fiction, and if you can't handle sexism or racism in fiction, then you really need to re-think things and chill out. It is not there to offend the player - it is there to, again, push the story forward, or raise an issue in the world/alternative universe that the medium takes place in.

 

Okay. And how do you think presenting women in a consistant stereotypical manner pushes the story forward in this case?

Also, I think this topic may have run it's course now. I don't get the impression it'll get more exciting atm :smile:

Edit: That color code was sure tricky to handle when quoting. If post looks a little screwed up, it's my lacking forum skills I'm afraid! Also, the quotes are from Zaldiir's reply.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Zzimith

[Georgiegril]

Full disclosure, I am a female gamer, and I am strongly for the full spectrum of human rights and dignity, including lgbt, rights of the disabled and any other underrepresented group.

Also, I have been gaming a long time. Like, since pong.

 

So, here is my opinion on Skyrim: It is not a utopia. If it were, I would probably have gotten bored of it a long time ago. From a game construction view, it is better than many, many games I have played, in that one can play a female dragonborn, and play it successfully. One can marry either gender, if one chooses (though personally I can't stand all the marital simpering, so I avoid this altogether.) There are characters missing eyes, disabled from battle, etc. There are female leaders of holds and the suggestion that the High King of Skyrim may end up being a woman. Possibly the most powerful person in Skyrim is a woman, Maven Blackbriar. One might argue that making her so unlikable is sexist, but there are equally unlikeable men in high positions of power in the game--I think that it is more a commentary by the creators on what sort of person, male or female, tends to amass power.

 

Personally I feel that games are more a reflection of culture, rather than a force that shapes culture. The existence of games like Grand Theft Auto do not correlate with increased crime levels, nor did the Oregon Trail correlate with increase sharing and altruism. I sincerely doubt that creating a utopian Skyrim would make any real difference in battling real-world inequality. That said, one of the greatest strengths of Skyrim is it's ability to be modified. If you do not like something, create a mod to make it better fit your taste. Certainly there are plenty of mods that make Skyrim more sexist, and there is the same opportunity for you to make it less.

[Zzimith]

Full disclosure, I am a female gamer, and I am strongly for the full spectrum of human rights and dignity, including lgbt, rights of the disabled and any other underrepresented group.

Also, I have been gaming a long time. Like, since pong.

 

So, here is my opinion on Skyrim: It is not a utopia. If it were, I would probably have gotten bored of it a long time ago. From a game construction view, it is better than many, many games I have played, in that one can play a female dragonborn, and play it successfully. One can marry either gender, if one chooses (though personally I can't stand all the marital simpering, so I avoid this altogether.) There are characters missing eyes, disabled from battle, etc. There are female leaders of holds and the suggestion that the High King of Skyrim may end up being a woman. Possibly the most powerful person in Skyrim is a woman, Maven Blackbriar. One might argue that making her so unlikable is sexist, but there are equally unlikeable men in high positions of power in the game--I think that it is more a commentary by the creators on what sort of person, male or female, tends to amass power.

 

Personally I feel that games are more a reflection of culture, rather than a force that shapes culture. The existence of games like Grand Theft Auto do not correlate with increased crime levels, nor did the Oregon Trail correlate with increase sharing and altruism. I sincerely doubt that creating a utopian Skyrim would make any real difference in battling real-world inequality. That said, one of the greatest strengths of Skyrim is it's ability to be modified. If you do not like something, create a mod to make it better fit your taste. Certainly there are plenty of mods that make Skyrim more sexist, and there is the same opportunity for you to make it less.

 

I agree, Skyrim does contain a lot of both strong and interesting female characters and overall isn't a complete failure in that area. Many things regarding gender in Skyrim I appreciate and regnozie as a step forward. However, as long as things are as bad as they still actually are, I feel there's a point of nagging. I doubt the degree of success Bethesda can actually boastwith regarding gender is a product of consumder preassure; the increasing number of female gamers and male gamers who aren't comfortable with this type of stereotypes dominating games.

 

When it comes to games being more of a reflection of society, rather than the opposite, I'm not completely in agreement with you: I think the two correlates more than we'd like to think. I also agree the explicitly misoginous games like GTA rarely cause people to directly behave violently. However, if that kind (GTA, not Skyrim, mind you, I'm not too comfortable comparing the two) of behaviour and values are repetead in game after game I'm convinced it does change us a little bit and I do think I'm right about that :) Remember also that despite any PEGI recommendations, tons of very young people play GTA, or watch their older siblings do it. But to think people are immune to being affected by media just because they're adults is a bit naive, I think. I don't think Skyrim causes anyone to promptly go raping anyone, it's more part of a pattern that simply isn't contributing a lot to make societey better in the regards of gender.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Zzimith

[Honorgirl]

mate you just nitpicked so much. Like seriously nitpick, nitpick, nitpick :pinch: . Skyrim is no more gender biased then life itself. Hell you could say Skyrim is less gender biased then it should be seeing as it's a game that follows medieval era tropes yet women serve in the military and become leaders just the same as men with no noticeable discrimination. Hey there are women in fighting organizations, serving as the leader of countries, ambassadors, and leading warrior organizations throughout the lore of the game.

 

My friend I think you're just looking for sexism :wink:

 

 

EDIT: Also games can reflect real world values or just reflect the values of that game's world. To say it HAS to reflect our real world values is just being restrictive for silly reasons. Games and real life is different.

 

TES games are an example of this. The Wood Elves eat the things they kill, INCLUDING PEOPLE. Old Orcs go out into the wilderness to die just because they are growing old. These things we personally find bad, as well as some other races feel this is bad. But it's acceptable in THEIR culture and in THEIR world. They don't reflect the values of our real world nor do they have too.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Honorgirl

[djjohnjarvis]

It's a game. It's not supposed to be political or represent minorities and just follows the norms of media in general which will always target the majority which is understandable and not in the least abnormal. I don't see what Bethesda would gain out of pushing some political agenda that affects few people and that most people do not realise or care about and that no other developers have bothered contemplating. Skyrim represents women in every role possible and has many more than most games. You also need to bear in mind the limitations and time constraints. For example there are only two body types, one for male and one for female and the whole marriage system is a rushed job and a total joke but it doesn't matter because it isn't the focus of the game. Obviously due to this they are going to focus on implementing the figure typically used in this kind of fantasy setting over something that most people probably wouldn't relate to. I'm a heterosexual male like most of the developers would be so obviously if I was making the game I wouldn't be thinking about how to implement content to appease the gay/feminist crowd and would instead focus on the story and mechanics. Personally I don't care if someone is gay or not or their political views just as long as they don't try and thrust it upon me. Also I'm not homophobic but the sight of 2 guys kissing and cuddling or anything that might conjure up that image kind of makes me feel uncomfortable which is not my fault and I try not to be and I imagine I'm not the only one. Does that mean I hate those people or disagree with them, no, just that I'm not accustomed like most people so would rather avoid the subject as I do not need to make a statement about being heterosexual myself. Everything these days is either racist, sexist, homophobic, not politically correct or upsets a small minority of people that are upset too easily when it is not intended to do so or has no real relation to any of those things and is just looking for an issue that doesn't exist. If it genuinely is intended to upset someone then it is a different story and I would totally be annoyed but when it's petty stuff then I'm like what difference does it make. When people play the sexist card (or any other for that matter) too much it kind of loses any kind of relevance which is a shame when it could be used for much more important things than video games that I would totally support e.g equal employment etc.

[rizon72]

Personally, if Bethesda had wanted to be sexist, then you would only be able to play as a male, you would only be able to marry a female, and there would be no female housecarls, guards, or warriors.

 

Re-reading your OP, not seeing where the women of the College of Winterhold (ie Mages Guild) are evil. The only one really who is a bad guy is Ancano.

Edited September 25, 2013 by rizon72

[Deleted31005User]

Like said before, there are females in every aspect of the game and we can marry the same gender, that's as far as I'd like it to go.

I do not mind gay people, however I live by a simple rule: "to each their own", meaning gay people can do whatever they like with whoever they like, but I do not need to be aware of that nor do I want their beliefs be forced on me.

So filling skyrim with that aspect would be a big no-no for me, maybe a character or two wouldn't hurt, but I certainly would not want to see men holding hands in every city I enter...

After all its a game I play for my entertainment.

 

But I agree that those skimpy armor sets and whatnot take it a bit too far sometimes, a few bodybuilder females in the game would be interesting indeed :)

Edited September 26, 2013 by Guest

[Bluttrinker]

Zzimith, on 22 Sept 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

 

I think racism is fine in Skyrim as long as it's aimed at fantasy races. I don't think it'd be much appreciated by consumers if the game world showed a lot of hate towards black people or portraying black people in a stereotypical manner, do you?

 

So discrimination against real races in a media has to be a bad thing?

 

I'm sure you hate Philladesphia, there was so much hate towards gay and HIV positive people in it.

[Hyacathusarullistad]

First of all, full disclosure - I've not read the entire thread here. I'm basically addressing the issue as I understand from the title of the thread. Sorry if I'm missing the point here.

 

Historically, I never considered gender bias to be a significant force in the fandoms with which I identify. Predominantly male protagonists, marginalised and over-sexualised female characters, etc. are and pretty much always have been the norm. I was never really consciously aware of these things until quite recently - the last four or five months - when I was introduced to a female gamer screen-named Sam Maggs who's devoted a good amount of both her personal and professional (as a freelance gaming and "genre" columnist) efforts to raising awareness in people like myself. She's proven on a consistent, almost daily basis that she is a more hardcore, passionate fan of most of my fandoms than I am. And I've discovered that I really don't have a problem with that (apart from the fact that no one, male/female gay/straight alive/dead, loves or is as devoted to Doctor Who as I do or am). I now consider myself a proponent of equality in "genre" media, be it video games, movies, comic books, graphic novels, or what have you.

 

That being said, I don't think Skyrim itself is an example of how women are demeaned and/or trivialised in gaming. The primary issue that I take with many elements of the genre is how women are presented as scantily clad, under-written, and obscenely proportioned and positioned objects to be conqured. Where males - even ones presented with minimal clothing, limited personality, and obscene proportions/body types - are presented as an ideal to be achieved. Women are objectified where men are idealised - she's a porn star, he's a body builder. This is an important distinction that many defenders fail to make.

 

In the vanilla Skyrim game, the female variants of any armour or clothing are no more revealing or sexualised than the male variants. The idle and combat stances for female characters are no more ridiculous or sexualised than the males'. For every vapid, obnoxious young woman there's also a boring, insipid male character - and for every beefy male warrior there's also a big no-nonsense woman warrior to match him. And, most obviously, playing a female character makes no meaningful change to the story or gameplay experience beyond a few throwaway lines of dialogue (Alvor's wife Sigrid, for example). Anything a male PC can do, a female can do and vice versa.

 

Yes, the fantasy environment in which the game takes place is based on medieval concepts of sexuality, race, and physical capacity. But in the end, Skyrim is, quite honestly, far closer to an idyllic society than we are, as far as gender and sexual equality is concerned. And I think this is precisely because of the fact that neither gender differences nor sexuality are addressed in the game whatsoever. They're just not discussed. There's no focus on them at all. It isn't relevant. And whether this is an attempt at socio-political commentary, or it was simply easier and less time consuming to make the game that way, the end result is the same.

 

The modding community is another issue entirely that I'm not sure I'm comfortable getting in to. I don't have sufficient knowledge of the composition of the community (male to female ratio, etc.), nor of the technical limitations of the process, to comment properly. All I'll say is that yes, there is an extensive number of skimpy lady armours, body models and poses. But from what I understand - and please correct me if I'm mistaken - the author of one of the oldest and most widely used female body mods was made by a female gamer (Caliente). And again if I'm not mistaken, the most widely used male body mod to my knowledge, Schlongs of Skyrim, was in fact created by a male. Take from these facts what you will, but I believe this is a reflection of progress, and a sign that a fandom, regardless of the intentions or mindset (conscious or otherwise) of a developer, can and will compensate for any socio-political shortcomings of said developers. And I think that's brilliant.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Hyacathusarullistad

[Zzimith]

@Hyacathusarullistad First of all: thank you for an intelligently written reply! You should read the original post :smile: I'm also interested to know what your columnist friend think of Skyrim (if she's played it).

 

I too appreciate Bethesda's effort not to make the game gender biased, their effort is apparent. However, I don't think they're quite there yet, as I hope my examples show. Cool Caliente is possibly a female, I didn't expect that, actually. However, women are by no means immune to being gender biased. Gender is a mutual agreement and reproduced by both men and women and both are (almost) equally internalized. The way we behave in terms of gender is something we've inherited culturally throughout the generations since we first became farmers. Men and women both are often also initially hostile to the notion men and women are unequal in terms of power and freedom because of gender, since it challenges our values and way of life. I can't presume to know anything about Caliente as an individual, or her intentions though :smile: I also have no problems with skimpy mods per se, I appreciate tits as much as anyone so inclined, it's the pattern I'm criticizing; the mass of tit mods and the lack of dick mods, basically :wink:

 

@some of the others who've replied: In my original post I asked that you refrain from replying of you're already hostile to this topic as a whole. I repeat that. You don't have to agree with me, but if you've got a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim or have no interest in discussing the topic in such a manner, please refrain from replying altogether. Thanks!

Edited September 28, 2013 by Zzimith