Omg Skyrim is gender biased!

[MidevalGuy]

 

@some of the others who've replied: In my original post I asked that you refrain from replying of you're already hostile to this topic as a whole. I repeat that. You don't have to agree with me, but if you've got a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim or have no interest in discussing the topic in such a manner, please refrain from replying altogether. Thanks!

 

Translation:

 

I have an agenda, I am going to force that agenda whether you like or not because my ego demands validation.

 

Have fun with your intellectual masturbation thread. The rest of us have real lives to live.

[Hyacathusarullistad]

Actually I did read most of your examples. And I find most of your conclusions to be, in my opinion, incomplete interpretations of the data.

 

Take the Thieves Guild for example. Yes, the leader of the Guild is a man. But I'd like to point out that said man is a lying, scheming, selfish, manipulative villain determined to acquire wealth and power for himself even if it means betraying not only his mentor and best friends, but also the dozen or so other people who've come to trust and rely upon him for twenty-odd years. The female character who reveals his berayal, on the other hand, is an altruistic, compassionate, and relatively (for a career thief) selfless person who's devoted the last twenty years of her life to seeing the man who killed her lover and mentor brought to justice by the Guild, not kill him herself in petty vengeance.

 

The Companions. Again, yes, the Harbinger and many of its high ranking members are strong male warriors. And sure, there's only one female Companion of any consequence. Right now. Keep in mind, though, that Aela comes from a long line of women Companions - her mother was one, and her mother's mother, all the way back to the days of the original Five Hundred themselves. A legacy of women who've cast aside "tradtional" female roles in such a society (roles that are only arguably applicable in this fantasy setting) and become members of the most honourable and celebrated group in the province. Also keep in mind that half the high ranking male members of the companions are killed off simply for the sake of driving the plot - one as a direct result of his own recklessness and arrogance.

 

Jarl Elisif. I'll admit that she's weak, helpless, and entirely under the control of the men surrounding her. But I'll also point out that not only are both she and her late husband both described as young - Proventus even goes so far as to actually refer to Torygg as a "boy". So she's not just a helpless little woman, she's arguably a helpless young girl, one who was never expected to have to take the position she ultimately did. Her husband has also only been dead for less than a year. Meanwhile her counterpart, Ulfric, is a sociopathic megalomaniac who has no qualms about using the fears and misgivings of the people to fuel his own lust for power. Elisif may be a helpless little girl, but Ulfric is hardly a paragon of righteousness and wisdom. He's a selfish coward with an agenda.

 

I've admittedly only ever done the Dark Brotherhood questline a few times. I'll just say that however flawed a woman Astrid may be, Cicero makes enough of a counter-argument that I really don't feel the need to dignify her use as an example against my argument with a proper response.

 

All Thalmor are nasty, conceited, condescending, and deceitful. It's just how they are. Male or female is irrelevant. Trying to argue otherwise, or say that one character is more these things than another because she's a woman and Bethesda hates women just makes one look petty, really.

 

Bottom line, I think you're choosing to see what you want to see in who you want to see it, rather than seeing them in the context of Skyrim as a whole. You see Elisif, but not her situation nor Ulfric. You see the limits in character creation for females, but not those for males. I admire and even share your base opinion as it applies to the gaming and comic industries as a whole, but I feel that Skyrim is a very poor example of the negative tropes involved in the problem.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Hyacathusarullistad

[rizon72]

 

@some of the others who've replied: In my original post I asked that you refrain from replying of you're already hostile to this topic as a whole. I repeat that. You don't have to agree with me, but if you've got a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim or have no interest in discussing the topic in such a manner, please refrain from replying altogether. Thanks!

 

From my experience online, whenever I see a quote like this, it brings into question how much debate the person wants. Or to be more blunt, I translate it to: if it doesn't agree with my views, it must be false and the person saying it must be uneducated.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

@some of the others who've replied: In my original post I asked that you refrain from replying of you're already hostile to this topic as a whole. I repeat that. You don't have to agree with me, but if you've got a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim or have no interest in discussing the topic in such a manner, please refrain from replying altogether. Thanks!

Then don't open a topic in the open forum. Not sure how you will define a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim. Your post seems to indicate that you think at least someone here has already posted in such a manner. I see no sign of that. Your comment certainly can raise the ire of other members (and we call that flaming) and replies in kind are inevitable.

 

To save what was an otherwise interesting thread I would suggest all of you (OP and others) take a deep breath and keep your comments within the rules of this site. Up until now things had been going fairly well. Should this thread continue to degrade I will come back and close it.~Lisnpuppy

[Zzimith]

@Hyacathusarullistad

I think you're choosing to see what you want to see in who you want to see it, rather than seeing them in the context of Skyrim as a whole

 

 

You're absolutely right! And , in regard to seeing what I want to see, I likely have that in common with just about everyone :smile: I get the impression at least, that you're doing pretty much the same but from your angle. But it is Skyrim as whole I'm looking at, and tried to give as much examples from as I could to show the larger picture. I do believe I mentioned some of the exceptions you refer to. First I'd like to repeat (again) that I do recognize many examples of strong independent, non-stereotypical women in Skyrim, as well as some men presented in a non-stereotypical manner. However, the game as whole is rather gender biased still. Take the companions for example. You bring up Aela, and yes, she's there in all her badassedness and I appreciate that. But no matter how badass she is, women are in minority in the companions. And while you can find examples of this throughout factions, the fact remains they are often an exception. Let's make a thought experiment! Picture that genders in Skyrim were swithed - every male was a female and the other way around. I'll show just a few, short examples of this brand new Skyrim:

 

• The Companions - led by a wizened old veteran female and her closest advisors were a brute names Farkasia and a sligthly more level headed warrior named Vilka. Most of the memebers and all of the Circle except one were females.
• The Civil war - the two main figures: Ulrika Stormcloak and general Tullia. One served bu the brutish Gorka and the other by the competent and loyal man Rikko
• The College - led by a woman
• The Thieves guild - led by two women, challenged by a wronged man
• The Jarls - 6 female, 3 male, those involved in the main quest, all female
• The Graybeards - female exclusive

 

I could go on and in some cases, it wouldn't change a lot but if you did this throughout the whole game, you would get something pretty amazing, and something many gamers would likely react to much more vocally than I have, despite a few choise words to some participants :wink: Don't you agrre? My impression is that you single out the exceptions to my argument and hold on to them a little too dearly. I recognize they are there, but they don't change a pattern than I think is all too obvious.

 

You see the limits in character creation for females, but not those for males.

 

 

I do, and as I stated in one of my earlier replies, I think I should have put more emphasis on that, so let's be clear: Men are, at large, also presented in a stereotypical manner in Skyrim, not less so than women, I believe, and I regret that. And I did also mention the complete lack of lbqt people in the game, which I also regret. If I wanna crete a skimpy, sissy man who strut around like a queen and has green eye tint, I can't, which I also regret, btw :)

Edited September 29, 2013 by Zzimith

[Zzimith]

 

 

@some of the others who've replied: In my original post I asked that you refrain from replying of you're already hostile to this topic as a whole. I repeat that. You don't have to agree with me, but if you've got a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim or have no interest in discussing the topic in such a manner, please refrain from replying altogether. Thanks!

Then don't open a topic in the open forum. Not sure how you will define a less than informed, educated or intelligent opinion about gender in Skyrim. Your post seems to indicate that you think at least someone here has already posted in such a manner. I see no sign of that. Your comment certainly can raise the ire of other members (and we call that flaming) and replies in kind are inevitable.

 

To save what was an otherwise interesting thread I would suggest all of you (OP and others) take a deep breath and keep your comments within the rules of this site. Up until now things had been going fairly well. Should this thread continue to degrade I will come back and close it.~Lisnpupp

 

 

I does seem to indicate that, yes! :) However, frustration got the better of me, I guess. I was very hesitant to discuss this subject here in the first place, and perhaps it was a mistake. But I hope not. Will try my best to keep a level head!

[NemesisTheWarlock]

Gender mixing in vanilla Skyrim is a FACT.

The Orcish females that you specifically targeted CANNOT move like seductresses, or catwalk models, unless specifically modded to do so, in the vanilla game they stomp around like every other Orc.

There are many more examples of ambiguous gender in the vanilla game, both men and women whose gender is ambiguous, they just typically go unnoticed.

​The spread of powerful women in Skyrim also far outmatches their representation in our "real" world.

Marriage is available to whichever gender you choose and no-one bats an eyelid and it's condoned by the church no less.

Now, I don't know on what planet you live, but here on earth? That is not something you're going to see in my lifetime.

As for the unenlightened attitude of the young white male, I don't see such liberal, open-minded attitudes amongst other cultural minorities. No death penalty for homosexuality in the free west for example.

All in all, your initial premise seems utterly specious and your true agenda suspect.

[rizon72]

So how would you like the women to be depicted? More women in control? Less? Better movements? I'm scratching my head about what you specifically are looking for I the game. You acknowledge there are strong women in the game, then call it sexist. What would it take for you not to call it sexist?

[Honorgirl]

This is silly, being fair to genders doesn't mean that 50% of men get this and 50% of women also get this. It's just choosing not to discriminate or stereotype people in roles. Using this thread's logic, Skyrim is not only gender biased, it's also RACIST. Think about it, where are the black leaders? why is it that all the black people (Redguards) are into something violent and deadly? or have some type of problems with their families? Why is their a lack of mods for Redguards? Using your logic, Skyrim is racially biased towards white people.

[Hyacathusarullistad]

<Removed by author.>

Edited September 29, 2013 by Hyacathusarullistad