Nevex Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I am personally not with or against any religion, I prefer the consept that we are all responcible for our own fate if or if not there be such a force to be interpreted as God, religion never seems to be a topic that goes over well. We as beings of sub-par perfection do not have complete comprehetion of the workings of known actions. We as creations maybe of another or random chemical reactions need a way of explaining our existance and some maybe less likely than others..we as of creatures of intelligent thought have made many such ideas of creation be it the notion of Adam and Eve though physically and structurly impossible as well as judging by findings highly unlikly. Though some religions pave way not for just a notion of existance but also a way or foundation to live by to allow us to co-exist with our fellow beings in peace, without the barbaric acts that we still visit constantly to this date in time. I'm finished though I'm sure this won't make too much sense, oh well...I guess I'm a bit of a philosopher. Anyways I feel people should be free to believe as they do but yet understand the points of what they follow and not do so blindly because it is forced upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrash123 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 FlyingFox: That's an interesting POV. I'd like to read that paper you wrote sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeLLL Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Id second that. Maybe you should post it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark0ne Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 yess and i suppose our entire being and universe just magically fell into place over millions of years of evolution from a random occurence in such an incredibly structured way... Look at it this way. I believe time is infinite - yes, time began (according to humans) when the universe began, but before then there must have been time also (just not as we know it). Now, imagine the chance of our universe existing through a quantum phenomenon. Its probably somewhere within the 0.0 to the power 1 trillion - 1. that is 0.0000 - one trillion other zeros - 1 Time is infinite - therefore the possibility of the universe being created as it has been is almost dead set - because time has an infinite amount of tries at getting it right. Therefore the probability of an action happening (that is, the universe being created as it has been) is never really in question - because no matter how low the probability, time is infinite and therefore it doesn't matter. --- Now, as for the "Principle of Sufficient Reason" - this is a blatent rip-off of Thomas Aquinas' "Five-Way Theory for the Existance of God" - just swapping "God" for "Universe". I'd recommend you go to google and search for Aquinas' five-ways and review them, you'll see blatent similarities. Thomas Aquinas' work has been quite rigourisly attacked by other philosophers and I believe the criticisms of his Five-Ways also work for this "Sufficient Reason" theory. --- At the end of the day, humans trying to explain the cause for the universe is a failed venture - all one can do is guess, predict or try and reference current day (or historic) events to its creation and come up with a scientific diagnosis of the situation. I would say it was just as pathetic to say an "all-loving, all-caring, all-knowing entity" created the universe as it is to say La-La from the "Teletubbies" pulled it off. We cannot know how many universes there have been before ours or even if there is more than one at this current time. We can't even disprove the "Men In Black" theory that our universe is a part of an alien's marble game - so what justification do we have in claiming that either a super-entity created the universe or that "nothing" created the universe? In my opinion: None. May God set me straight himself if he exists. --- As for science. Science is the most unpredicatable of all beliefs at the moment. Pratical task for today: find a physics, chemistry or biology book written in 1973 and read through it. You'll find that the majority of the theories put across in the text book, that is the book that people learnt from in 1973 (!!!) have been disproven and falsified. Now, doesn't that make you think that the science you've learnt today will have been disproven within the next 30 years? More than likely. Science is as reliable as God - neither of them talk to us unless through followers (in science reference, scientists). Science is by no means fact - a person who bases his life on science is basing his life on false pretenses. --- Final Note: A protestant is a Christian. I was informing rather than questioning :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeLLL Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 :D You have a valid point Dark0ne. Oh by the way the Principle of sufficent reason was derived by a paper created by a Bahai' scholar. <could be the same guy; I would have to asked human that.> Myself I don't really believe that we as humans can grasp the full concept of time. As you said time in one form or another must of exsited before the universe was created. You never no our universe could be the result of an infinite loop where by a paradox exists that our universe was created in some what by a previous universe <or pararel universe>. Interesting thought about time is that there is no real single instant in time. Thus if there is no instant of time is it possible that time has never begun and because of that will never end? <but we know time is here you might ask. well do you know it is. change the tools in an experiment and you will get different results ;) > Maybe we are asking the wrong questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 yess and i suppose our entire being and universe just magically fell into place over millions of years of evolution from a random occurence in such an incredibly structured way... Look at it this way. I believe time is infinite - yes, time began (according to humans) when the universe began, but before then there must have been time also (just not as we know it). Now, imagine the chance of our universe existing through a quantum phenomenon. Its probably somewhere within the 0.0 to the power 1 trillion - 1. that is 0.0000 - one trillion other zeros - 1 Time is infinite - therefore the possibility of the universe being created as it has been is almost dead set - because time has an infinite amount of tries at getting it right. Therefore the probability of an action happening (that is, the universe being created as it has been) is never really in question - because no matter how low the probability, time is infinite and therefore it doesn't matter. --- Now, as for the "Principle of Sufficient Reason" - this is a blatent rip-off of Thomas Aquinas' "Five-Way Theory for the Existance of God" - just swapping "God" for "Universe". I'd recommend you go to google and search for Aquinas' five-ways and review them, you'll see blatent similarities. Thomas Aquinas' work has been quite rigourisly attacked by other philosophers and I believe the criticisms of his Five-Ways also work for this "Sufficient Reason" theory. --- At the end of the day, humans trying to explain the cause for the universe is a failed venture - all one can do is guess, predict or try and reference current day (or historic) events to its creation and come up with a scientific diagnosis of the situation. I would say it was just as pathetic to say an "all-loving, all-caring, all-knowing entity" created the universe as it is to say La-La from the "Teletubbies" pulled it off. We cannot know how many universes there have been before ours or even if there is more than one at this current time. We can't even disprove the "Men In Black" theory that our universe is a part of an alien's marble game - so what justification do we have in claiming that either a super-entity created the universe or that "nothing" created the universe? In my opinion: None. May God set me straight himself if he exists. --- As for science. Science is the most unpredicatable of all beliefs at the moment. Pratical task for today: find a physics, chemistry or biology book written in 1973 and read through it. You'll find that the majority of the theories put across in the text book, that is the book that people learnt from in 1973 (!!!) have been disproven and falsified. Now, doesn't that make you think that the science you've learnt today will have been disproven within the next 30 years? More than likely. Science is as reliable as God - neither of them talk to us unless through followers (in science reference, scientists). Science is by no means fact - a person who bases his life on science is basing his life on false pretenses. --- Final Note: A protestant is a Christian. I was informing rather than questioning :) good lord lol sometimes i wonder how ur brain doesnt blow up with all that smart uve got stuffed in there :P well after all that i'd still hate to think that all those people wasted there lives making a 1000+ page book called the bible :P also I would say it was just as pathetic to say an "all-loving, all-caring, all-knowing entity" created the universe as it is to say La-La from the "Teletubbies" pulled it off. isnt that almost verging on flaming on ur own board? :P newhos, i still cant believe that reality cud be this structured from a random quantum phenomenon... everyone has really valid points tho, this is why i hate philosophical debates, it always gets very... confusing :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Ahhh...but you see, for every universe in which there is a planet Earth where intelligent (?) life evolved there are countless others where it didn't happen! It just so happens that we live in the one where it did. It's like the much quoted example of the 1000 monkeys with typewriters - give them long enough and they will write a Shakespeare play. Getting back to probabilities, in the sum over all possible universes there will be one where life on Earth happened. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark0ne Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 well after all that i'd still hate to think that all those people wasted there lives making a 1000+ page book called the bible Heck, its a brilliant story book with excellent ideals, but anyone can write such a book with such profound ideals given the right technical prowess. Its not as if its the biggest book in the world - page-wise. Yes, the bible is the biggest selling book worldwide, and Christianity is the widest spread (and spreading) religion there is - but one has to ask themselves why? IMHO, its because they got to Africa and managed to spread the word first. Almost exploitative of the African populus, if you ask me. newhos, i still cant believe that reality cud be this structured from a random quantum phenomenon... Our universe is structured? Thats news to me! Look past this world, and you'll find space is a very fragile thing. Well, even the earth is a fragile thing which isn't perfect (look at natural "disasters" for instance). If we were to move the sun a few miles in either direction, our solar system would more than likely collapse. Get a nuke into the middle of a star and watch as the whole system collapses and the star goes super-nova. No offense, but our universe could be a lot more ordered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Our universe is structured? Thats news to me! Look past this world, and you'll find space is a very fragile thing. Well, even the earth is a fragile thing which isn't perfect (look at natural "disasters" for instance). If we were to move the sun a few miles in either direction, our solar system would more than likely collapse. Get a nuke into the middle of a star and watch as the whole system collapses and the star goes super-nova. No offense, but our universe could be a lot more ordered. Entropy. As for why Christianity is so widespread - I think it might have something to do with becoming the established religion of one of the big powers at the time - the Roman Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 well after all that i'd still hate to think that all those people wasted there lives making a 1000+ page book called the bible Heck, its a brilliant story book with excellent ideals, but anyone can write such a book with such profound ideals given the right technical prowess. Its not as if its the biggest book in the world - page-wise. Yes, the bible is the biggest selling book worldwide, and Christianity is the widest spread (and spreading) religion there is - but one has to ask themselves why? IMHO, its because they got to Africa and managed to spread the word first. Almost exploitative of the African populus, if you ask me. newhos, i still cant believe that reality cud be this structured from a random quantum phenomenon... Our universe is structured? Thats news to me! Look past this world, and you'll find space is a very fragile thing. Well, even the earth is a fragile thing which isn't perfect (look at natural "disasters" for instance). If we were to move the sun a few miles in either direction, our solar system would more than likely collapse. Get a nuke into the middle of a star and watch as the whole system collapses and the star goes super-nova. No offense, but our universe could be a lot more ordered. i never said the universe wasnt fragile, but it seems quite structured to me. i mean the fact that the sun isnt a few miles in either wrong direction and that our solar system (and we) have survived this long is amazing enough. neways we have no idea wot it was like before the big bang, so really IMHO the universe started by a random quantum phenomenon because it had infinite time to happen thing could be just as "pathetic" as a telly-tubby pulling off the creation of the universe :P we dont even know that there WAS time before the big bang neways, we all believe what we believe, lets just leave it at that, my head hurts lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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