The Pope Has Died

[Peregrine]

I didn't find it funny, and several others found it offensive.

 

And several found it funny. And I bet the ones who found it offensive would have laughed at a joke made about a dead guy they didn't respect. And would definitely laugh at jokes about someone else's non-death misfortune.

 

I'm sure they would, if they were true Christians. Maybe not as much concern, but a religious leader should no doubt deserve more concern and respect when he has done so much for his people, in their opinion. I watched a mass service on BBC News 24, and the bishop prayed for all the people in the world [today] who are suffering, hurting, etc. etc.

 

I see. So a religious leader whose bad policy decisions have produced significant harm deseves more respect that some average person who could only do good things for their family. Why don't those people's actions count? Just because their good intentions didn't get them enough power to operate on a large scale? Glad to know you're guilty of the celebrity worship I hate.

 

As for "true christians", that's a hopelessly idealistic concept. Very few people actually fit that definition. Nice example with the bishop though, too bad words are cheap, and I'm not too impressed with the "goodness" required to make a nice-sounding public statement.

 

Wrong. A true Christian, one who believes in following the life of Jesus would never laugh at the death of another person, whether it were Hussain, Hitler, Stalin or whoever.

 

And why not? Where did jesus ever say "don't have a sense of humor"? But I suppose you're going to use a definition of "true christian" that pretty much consists of "be 100% innocent and good as Dark0ne defines it".

 

If you want to go by what jesus said, none of the people on this forum are true christians. All of them are guilty of selfishly keeping material possessions instead of giving them away to the less fortunate, in direct contradiction of jesus' orders. You can't just pick the parts of jesus' commands that fit your point.

 

Ok...and...?

 

My point being that if I wanted to disrespectfully celebrate the pope's death, "some random god-guy is plant food" would not have been what I said. If I really felt like being offensive, I would've posted something a lot nastier. A minor joke is a lot different from "thank god he's dead, I just wished he'd suffered longer first." The point is that I don't care either way, and since I have a sense of humor, I made a joking post about a major news event.

 

I'd say it is. You're already on strike 2 and strike 3 is just a hair's length away.

 

Good to know you can read my mind. The fact that I didn't post a long rant celebrating his death has nothing to do with your opinion of me, and everything to do with my lack of hatred for him.

I didn't find your comments the slightest bit humorous. Maybe you're just not funny? Can't see anybody else laughing.

 

I guess you missed Darnoc's post? And the real-life friends I told it to laughed as well.

 

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For all of you who are getting so upset over one joke, I'd like to know why death transforms someone into a perfect person deserving of total respect. Why should someone get more respect just because they died?

 

I didn't respect the pope when he was alive, and I would've made the same "some random god-guy" if he'd appeared in the news for something else. So why should I pretend that he didn't have any flaws, and that I respect him?

 

And repeating "you need to show respect for the dead" doesn't count. I know you find jokes about your respected leader offensive just because he's dead, but I want to know WHY the dead deserve more respect.

[Switch]

What the hell is your peoples problem? If Peregrine wants to state what he thinks about this matter then let him, even if it pisses people off he still has the RIGHT to say it. Personally I didnt really know much about the pope but he seemed like a pretty good guy to me. I am a Christian and I dont like it when people die, but there are people dying all the time so they need our prayers too not just the pope. If anything he is in heaven now and he is having a great time. Im sure he would want us to pray for other people and not him because he is in heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it's against the rules. You shouldn't state your opinion if it's going to be blatantly offensive to some. If you do, you should at least be tactful. Peregrine however is not being so, which could, potentially, encite a flamewar. :P

[Peregrine]

What the hell is your peoples problem? If Peregrine wants to state what he thinks about this matter then let him, even if it pisses people off he still has the RIGHT to say it. Personally I didnt really know much about the pope but he seemed like a pretty good guy to me. I am a Christian and I dont like it when people die, but there are people dying all the time so they need our prayers too not just the pope. If anything he is in heaven now and he is having a great time. Im sure he would want us to pray for other people and not him because he is in heaven.

Because it's against the rules. You shouldn't state your opinion if it's going to be blatantly offensive to some. If you do, you should at least be tactful. Peregrine however is not being so, which could, potentially, encite a flamewar. :P

 

Oh really? Where in the rules does it state that you aren't allowed to post unpopular opinions? I see rules about not flaming or disrespecting forum members, but last time I checked, the pope didn't have an account here.

 

As for tact, it's a worthless thing. Ever here of a style over substance fallacy? The way an opinion is presented is completely irrelevant. I would be just as offended by a statement whether or not it's said in nice polite terms. Tact is just an excuse for people to be offensive and get away with it, and I refuse to waste time with it.

 

And by that standard of offensiveness, you should ban yourself as well. I find the way you trivialize the deaths of everyone else who died yesterday (by caring only about the pope) extremely offensive. And I'm also offended by the hypocrisy of being lectured on respect by people who would laugh at the misfortune of others just as much, if it was a different person.

 

So which is it, Switch? Do you have principles, or just a problem with me?

[Dark0ne]

Oh really? Where in the rules does it state that you aren't allowed to post unpopular opinions? I see rules about not flaming or disrespecting forum members, but last time I checked, the pope didn't have an account here.

 

I believe there's a rule against undermining the authority of the moderators, you've already done that.

 

And by that standard of offensiveness, you should ban yourself as well. I find the way you trivialize the deaths of everyone else who died yesterday (by caring only about the pope) extremely offensive. And I'm also offended by the hypocrisy of being lectured on respect by people who would laugh at the misfortune of others just as much, if it was a different person.

 

Oh lordy. Next you're going to tell me I can't mourn the death of my mother because thousands of other people died on her funeral day as well. That's absa-bloody-ridiculous.

 

I see. So a religious leader whose bad policy decisions have produced significant harm deseves more respect that some average person who could only do good things for their family.

 

That's your opinion, I'm sure many people agreed with his decisions. So by mourning the loss of one man is offensive to the thousands of others who aren't being mourned for because they weren't known? Doesn't really make sense. Why would I mourn for a person I knew nothing about? I think you're just deliberately trying to be s#*&#33;-stick-witted.

 

As for "true christians", that's a hopelessly idealistic concept. Very few people actually fit that definition. Nice example with the bishop though, too bad words are cheap blah blah blah

 

:yawn:

 

It's verging on a religious debate, so I'm just going to scrap quoting and answering your bone-idle dumb-founded questions. Why? Because I can.

 

My point being that if I wanted to disrespectfully celebrate the pope's death, "some random god-guy is plant food" would not have been what I said.

 

No. Your point was quite clearly that you are able to, and have, done such a thing on another forum. A completely irrelevent point to the situation. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks.

 

Good to know you can read my mind. The fact that I didn't post a long rant celebrating his death has nothing to do with your opinion of me, and everything to do with my lack of hatred for him.

 

No, instead you trivialised his passing. In the process insulting many Catholics mourning his death. An apology would be appropriate please.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Commenting upon anyone's death that so-and-so is 'plant food' now is in very poor taste, and if it's an attempt at humour.... well, I guess some people find anything amusing. :rolleyes:

 

 

Whether you are a catholic or not, the pope undeniably was important to a lot of people, and has, for better or for worse, affected many lives. As such I think some reflection upon his death is not inappropriate.

 

I have not followed the edicts of his papacy with any great interest, since IMO it is an outdated institution, but I have gathered that he was very outspoken against poverty and advocated third world debt relief, which is to his credit. His stance on contraception, however, was IMO very damaging - a less ultra-conservative stance, IMO, might have done much to slow the spread of AIDS as well as improve the quality of life of many women in countries where his church still has some influence.

 

I would doubt that his immediate successor will adopt a more modern approach, and I don't think the pope's death will result in any great upheaval - either within the church or in a wider context.

[Peregrine]

Oh lordy. Next you're going to tell me I can't mourn the death of my mother because thousands of other people died on her funeral day as well. That's absa-bloody-ridiculous.

 

You know perfectly well that's not the same thing, because your mother is a lot closer to you than some religious leader you've never met. The more appropriate example would be refusing to show respect for one of your country's dead politicians I disagreed with.

 

That's your opinion, I'm sure many people agreed with his decisions. So by mourning the loss of one man is offensive to the thousands of others who aren't being mourned for because they weren't known? Doesn't really make sense. Why would I mourn for a person I knew nothing about? I think you're just deliberately trying to be poo-stick-witted.

 

No, what's offensive is how everyone expects massive respect for the pope, far more than I would've given him in life, but they don't care a bit about any of the other people who died that day. Apparently you missed the post in here where someone said in clear terms that the pope deserved more respect than all those other random people.

It's verging on a religious debate, so I'm just going to scrap quoting and answering your bone-idle dumb-founded questions. Why? Because I can.

 

Translation: you concede that your definition of "true christian" is heavily biased towards producing the result you want.

 

No. Your point was quite clearly that you are able to, and have, done such a thing on another forum. A completely irrelevent point to the situation. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks.

 

Is this really that hard to understand? The point was that I have made two different posts, about people I have very different opinions of:

 

1) The post here, a minor joke about the pope that would've been perfectly fine if he had still been alive.

 

2) A nasty rant on another forum, celebrating the approaching death and suffering of one of the most disgusting "people" on this planet.

 

 

 

One was a joke, one was intentional disrespect and an attack on a person I hate. See if you can figure out which is which. If I hated the pope and wanted to offend people, I would've posted one like #2.

 

I hope you're intelligent enough to see the difference in insult between "some random god-guy" and "I'm glad he's dying, I hope it's as painful as possible".

 

No, instead you trivialised his passing. In the process insulting many Catholics mourning his death. An apology would be appropriate please.

 

Fine, you'll get an apology as soon as I get apologies for the following things:

 

1) The hypocrites who demand my head on a pike for insulting the pope, but who would laugh at jokes about other dead people. And don't tell me they wouldn't, if the terrorist pretzel had succeeded in its attack on Bush, I'm sure many of the same people would've been laughing about it.

 

2) The catholics who mindlessly praise and ignore the flaws of a man whose bad policy decisions are responsible for the death and/or suffering of countless people. While the pope is not purely evil like some people, I find it offensive that people think his harmful actions are forgiven just because he died.

 

 

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And since I'm tired of this thread hijack, which is completely unrelated to the subject I wanted to discuss...

 

http://forum.gamingsource.net/index.php?ac...t=0#entry112588

 

If you want to disagree with me, go do it there.

 

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I would doubt that his immediate successor will adopt a more modern approach, and I don't think the pope's death will result in any great upheaval - either within the church or in a wider context.

 

Probably true, sadly. From what I've heard, the best we can hope for is a moderately conservative replacement.

 

And you're probably right, if that happens, I doubt we'll see any dramatic changes. Just a growing lack of relevancy to society, as the last bits of the church's power slip away.

[Abramul]

Dark0ne, may as well lock this, and turn it into a sticky titled "How Not To Debate". Only way you can get him to listen is banning him from Debates for a few days.

[Peregrine]

Dark0ne, may as well lock this, and turn it into a sticky titled "How Not To Debate".  Only way you can get him to listen is banning him from Debates for a few days.

 

 

Of course, since daring to post an opinion someone finds offensive is the worst kind of debating. We should all be more concerned with style than substance, and never have opinions.

 

If you don't like my opinion, nobody's forcing you to read this thread. There's another thread for discussing the pope's death, without any of my comments. Or maybe you could go discuss respect for the dead in the other thread I made on the issue, and stop hijacking this one to snipe at me like this?

[Abramul]

Of course, since daring to post an opinion someone finds offensive is the worst kind of debating. We should all be more concerned with style than substance, and never have opinions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then it's not a debate. Saying "I think" is not acceptable evidence in ANY form of debate (unless you're "debating" favorite colors or something like that). Why should there be any acception to the facts requirement just for religion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

On topic: The days of religous wars are over. The worst possible outcome (in terms of stability) would be a messy break-up, but more likely the 'moderates' will continue to disagree, but not do anything about it.

[Peregrine]

Ok, fine, when you can find measurable facts on a question of human psychology, I'll be happy to debate with them. You know perfectly well what the intent of that quote was, so don't take it out of context.

 

On topic: The days of religous wars are over. The worst possible outcome (in terms of stability) would be a messy break-up, but more likely the 'moderates' will continue to disagree, but not do anything about it.

 

Well that's pretty obvious, since last time I checked, the pope doesn't have an army anymore.

 

And actually, I think a messy breakup might be the best outcome. If the church continues as it is, it's only going to become less and less relevant, and drag the moderates/liberals down with it. A clear breakup would give more options for reform and rebuilding, without the influence of the conservatives.