Rating system overhaul

[wogz187]

I've been reading forums today and I have to say that I'm a little bit disturbed. As I read- I notice the tone here is different than on the rest of the site.

 

I like the new rating system. Further more- it's exactly what you asked for. Read a few pages of the: Yet another "we're banning you because you can't read" news post and you'd think that half of Nexus is psychic. Dark0ne gave us what we collectively wanted. Yay.

 

My only suggestion- since I now see that some suggestions actually get implemented, would be that there is a system in place where the rating "cool-down" is removed from veteran accounts.

 

You weren't born knowing how to give proper feedback. It's something you learn. Chances are, if you've made it to say, 200 hundred or so posts and haven't been shown the door, you could be considered a reasonable person.

 

I've made mistakes. I broke the rules at least once that I can remember. We're all human. Here- I'll admit it: I rated Sharing & Caring Companions before I even tried it!

 

I gave that file an instant 10 because I loved Companion Share and recruit for TES:IV so much- and then realized there were several errors when I play-tested. In this example, at least, it was a positive mistake. I rated high as opposed to mouthin' off. The result? I contacted ZableBlaze and we became friends whilst trying to solve the issues. All positive. Yay.

 

The point? I learned from that mistake. SCC was the last file I ever rated before trying- and it was one of my first ratings. I guess what I'm saying is that I can be trusted to rate files appropriately and so can many other Nexus users I know- but we did not posses that talent on day one. You start with extremes and slowly find moderation. (or moderation finds you with it's ban-hammer!)

 

The "cool-down" timer is like the 10 day waiting period for firearms in the US. We've (collectively) proven we aren't responsible enough to rate properly. Indeed we've been shooting one another far too often.

 

You can usually earn back lost privileges though. We now have a rating system which is nearly idiot proof. It'd take some serious effort to screw up the whole Thumbs-Up, Thumbs-Down system. So with these new tools we should try to prove to Dark0ne that we can be trusted to follow the rules and behave- well, like adults.

 

As a general rule: Always start your comment with something positive. If you can't come up with at least one solid positive point you have no business on the comments page.

 

The three hours is perfectly reasonable (like the rest of the system) but my usual method is: a) check the file page out. b) install the mod. c) play-test the new mod (making detailed notes if necessary) and finally d) rate/comment

 

Some mods can't even be properly assessed in Three hours. I'll use my own 187GURLZ as an example. If you were able to test out each feature in three hours it means you were smashing through it too quickly to give proper feedback. As the designer it takes me a couple hours just to unlock everything and that's using console commands.

 

But for the most part the process described above usually only takes an hour or so (depending on the mod) and I like to get the comments out while it's fresh in my head. If I find something wrong I won't rate but instead leave an insightful comment and reserve rating for another day. There are, however, instances where I wait too long and forget- or I think I've rated but haven't.

 

Since the new system has been in place I've been rating files in notepad- then pasting it after the timer runs down. There's nothing wrong with that but I think it affects the tone of my message. It's like I'm talkin' to notepad instead of a file author.

 

So I don't want the "cool-down" timer to evaporate- I want a chance to prove it's not required for many avid Nexus users. Perhaps knowing that there is a reward for diligent, responsible ratings (I'm not gonna say "thumbings") will encourage new users to adopt this attitude more quickly.

 

Dark0ne

I apologize for the aforementioned trespass. I'll say 50 Hail Hammonds before bed tonight as penance.

 

(oh and SCC really is 10/10 now!- uhm, I mean a thumbs up!)

[Smith099]

Thank you Buddah, that does explain some things without giving out any real information. I was refering to the various public statements made by the persons in question on personal pages and in comments they made on other sites and the nexus.

 

@Crashpilot;

Several people, my cousin included, have put forth the idea of going back to the 1-10 system but with the download requirement and the wait time (1 to 3 hours) still in place. I feel that this is a fair compromise to what Dark0ne is trying to achieve with the reasons he stated about keeping people from abusing the rating system while still allowing people to comment on the files.

 

I went in to look at the endorsement system on a file while posting yesterday. For the "will not endorse" I saw a fairly good list of choices. The problem is that once you choose from the list you have to make a second comment if you want to be "constructive" and tell the author what is missing or what the bug was or give more details.

 

Dark0ne, he won't be back in here so don't waste your breath.

Do me the honour of answering a few questions though.

The problems you described here (in the second paragraph of "The story so far..." I believe), was that the 1-10 rating system was flawed in some way, and this flaw was compounded by the influx of new modders from other communities who did not/do not share your views of "constructive criticism." Could that be considered an accurate summary?

 

So,where are these problems centered?

 

Is it rating abuse, or trollin and flaming in the comments with ratings?

 

On which of the Nexus sites is the problem most widespread?

 

On what type of files does the problem most commonly occure?

 

Are people simply leaving downratings with no helpfull comments?

 

@Offkorn;

If someone walked up and told you who you were going to vote for, would your response be to: a) do what you were just told to do, b) go found your own country on a small island in the Artic Circle and push anyone who came to visit into the sea, or c) poke the person telling you what to do in the eye?

While I am not doing(or at least not trying to do)is poke Dark0ne in the eye, I am not just going to let him (or Buddah or anyone else on this site) simply dictate to me how to vote without a darn good set of reasons.

 

@wogz187;

Sure, we've all made mistakes like that, I know I've done it. There was something, I don't even remember what now, that someone posted and people were really trashing him about it, but I thought it was really funny so I gave him a 10 and then downloaded it. I've got no problem with a "cool-down" period for new members, I've got no problem with the download requirement or the wait time being 1 hour. Naturally some mods take longer to test than others, however, I think that the majority of the mods on the Nexus are not going to take eight hours to test. My Imperial Vaults mod as it is now might take two and a half hours to test, and another half hour to install (what with all the BSA issues). When the thing is finally done, it should be at least four hours worth of gameplay for anyone with a high enough level character who doesn't cheat. Mods like that are not common. Most of the mods I've seen on the latest files list or as I've been hunting through the lists have been a set of clothing, a weapon, a group of weapons or clothing, armor sets, a house, a horse, a spell or a spell pack... You get the idea, small mods that are not going to take 3 hours worth of testing. And if the mod doesn't work at all, that take less than thirty minutes to test even if you do it right and run through your load order to check for conflicts.

 

@Dark0ne; (Again)

I think we have reached the point where confusion has set in. You have ratings and you have something called "vote for file". I don't think I've ever even used the "vote for file" simply because I am not to sure why I should vote for something after I've rated it. If the concern is that some files are going to be more popular than others due to whatever reasons, then I think the first step you can take to fix the problem is to get rid of the "File of the Month" and Top # lists. That would solve the problem of one file or one modder being more popular/well liked/whatever than another. If I'm reading that wrong, then by all means, say so.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Smith099

[Dark0ne]

If someone walked up and told you who you were going to vote for, would your response be to: a) do what you were just told to do, b) go found your own country on a small island in the Artic Circle and push anyone who come to visit into the sea, or c) poke the person telling you what to do in the eye?

While I am not (or at least not trying to) poke Dark0ne in the eye, I am not just going to let him (or Buddah or anyone else on this site) simply dictate to me how to vote without a darn good set of reasons.

 

Your analogy is terribly, terribly flawed. Why? Because it has absolutely no relevance to the situation. Indeed, if you're going to use the democratic voting system as your (flawed) supporting analogy let me say this; do you rate your candidates from 1 - 10 or do you vote yes or no?

 

Indeed.

 

Where are these problems centered?

 

File ratings and comments.

 

Is it rating abuse, or trollin and flaming in the comments with ratings?

 

Both.

 

On which of the Nexus sites is the problem most widespread?

 

Both.

 

On what type of files does the problem most commonly occure?

 

It's relative to the popularity of the file (oh, and furry mods ;))

[ComVlad]

I must say I generally found the depth of a 1-10 system preferable to a simple yes or no system, and would prefer to see it reinstated. However I recognize that the 1or10 phenomena does exist and in fact do generally tend to rate higher then I probably should particularly with some of my first posts, and I also realize that there is also the problem with voting for the idea vs voting for the execution which was an issue i seem to recall being brought in the earlier "banning cause you cant read" discussion. As a compromise is there a chance we'll ever see a system that combines a yes or no endorsment with an actual indepth rating system, something like endorse/don't endorse for the idea side of the discussion and then a 1-10 for the execution with the top 100 list then based on the execution rating perhaps? I do like the download requirement and the subsequent wait time as this at least prevents kneejerk ratings(something i myself will admit to being guilty of). Additionally, I thought that the ability to shut off rating I noticed some authors use was great since in my opinion it allowed the author to trade off having to worry about ratings for giving up on a spot on the top lists.

[Smith099]

Thank you, Dr. Obvious.

 

 

Is it rating abuse, or trollin and flaming in the comments with ratings?

Both.

 

Okay, my fault there as I wasn't clear enough. Is the problem greater where that people are simply downrating files (without running their mouths off about the author) or is it more widespread that they are down rating with rude comments about the author, or are they not rating and making rude comments about the author? (And please don't insult the intellegence of the people on this site more than you already have by saying "Both" or "all of them.")

 

On which of the Nexus sites is the problem most widespread?

Both.

 

Okay, I seem to recall you saying that the people in the Elder Scrolls community seemed to know how to conduct themselves. I also seem to recall reading on the Nexus (though I admit that I don't recall who posted it or on which of the Nexus sites I saw it) that the Fallout 3 community was made up of, generally, younger modders who, due to their age and general "newness" (Beatle-ism), did not know how to conduct themselves in the Nexi community.

 

On what type of files does the problem most commonly occure?

It's relative to the popularity of the file (oh, and furry mods )

 

Don't give me the run around with this. "...relative to the popularity of the file..." Gar-bage, you sound like some type of political stand in. Be specific or don't bother to answer. If the problem is most wide spread on a specific type of file, they why not just say so?

 

If you only want to hear from people who like your Mod, host it yourself and IP-Ban anyone who doesn't have something positive to say.

 

I'd say that A, B, & C work perfectly in the situation that Offkorn is describing. I can; A) sit down, shut up and do what I'm told (i.e.what you want me to do). B)Found my own site and IP-Ban people who don't agree with me. (Effective, but not very helpful to the situation.) C) Poke you in the eye (stand up, speak out, and ask why you are doing things the way you are and try and form both sides of the argument about your actions rather than blindly trust that you know what you are doing and what is best).

 

Frankly Dark0ne, I think it is about time that you stoped with the "Father knows best" attitude. Many people have expressed concerns about the change to the rating system. I have made several comments about how I feel you could make the system better while leaving most of your changes in place.

 

But Smith, you say:

It's our way or no way.

 

Then I encourage you to strongly consider that your "way" needs to be modified. At the very, very least you could change things so that modders can turn off ratings for existing pages.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Smith099

[Dark0ne]

You'll find that I did explain my reasoning for the system change in my initial post; I spent a good deal of time writing out exactly why the changes were made to avoid this little banterous situation.

 

As for people expressing concerns this is extremely standard and there's no problem with expressing opinions in a constructive manner; but it doesn't mean that changes have to or will be made. Indeed, look through some of the past topics where I asked for feedback on what sort of rating system people wanted and you'll find that the large majority of people requested this new system. 8 years of working on this site, father might not know best, but father knows he can't please every one.

[Offkorn]

While I am not doing(or at least not trying to do)is poke Dark0ne in the eye, I am not just going to let him (or Buddah or anyone else on this site) simply dictate to me how to vote without a darn good set of reasons.

 

That was more directed at all the people who are saying "If people talk bad about my Mod (or give it negative endorsements), I'm going to report their comments because I cannot stand any dissenting opinion from my own".

 

The new system allows for negative endorsements without the risk of the negative being removed or the user getting banned for the related comment simply because the Mod's author cannot stand criticism of any sort (and, if that was the case, why did they release a public Mod?). This is an improvement, and will hopefully do something to mitigate the tangible aura of fear pervading this site.

 

Is this new system perfect? Of course not. But it's quite a bit better than the 1-10 system that nearly completely prevented people from rating a Mod anything lower than an 10 for fear of being banned.

 

Just as people are free to post comments like "I loved this Mod! *Endorsement*", they should be free to post comments such as "I didn't like this Mod. *Negative Endorsement*". Negative feedback is what allows you to improve your work, positive feedback is worthless in that regard; "You agree with me? That's great, I agree with me too.".

[Smith099]

Actually Dark0ne, what bugs me the most right now is that you simply refuse to answer a few basic questions none of which should present any challage to you. Instead, you insitisted on trying to be funny or give half answers or simply ignore the questions. I think the reason it bugs me so much is I see all the work you've done for us modders, but won't show us that last little bit of respect.

 

Edit:

Please be aware that I will report any offensive comments/ratings to the moderators, and if it becomes too much of a problem I will stop ratings and comments on the mod. I've seen perfectly good mods get full of vitriolic comments and I'm not going to allow a few people to ruin the moding experince for others on one of my pages.

That comes from Ozone's mod page.

He isn't saying that he will report you if you disagree, he is saying that if you (and I don't mean you personally Offkorn) can't keep the bad things you have to say to yourself, it will be reported to the moderators. This is the kind of statement that, I believe, should be up on every page. It says that the modder is going to take a stand and not tolerate bad mouthing. He hasn't had any problems (yet) due to the fact that no one has tried to test him on it. I feel that this is the attitude that Dark0ne needs to encourage rather than a "since you can't be nice on your own, I'm going to make you be nice" attitude.

Community policing has been a policy here for as long as I can remember. If each modder is responsible for his or her own pages and keeping out the nuts who don't know how to keep quite then we are making progress. I'm sorry Dark0ne, I still see the first step as being to encourage the modders to post comments like Ozone's on pages where the comments are most likely to occure.

 

"...tangible aura of fear pervading this site."

...

...

HUH? If there was a "tangible aura of fear" then this wouldn't even be an issue. If people are all that afraid of rating down a mod, then Dark0ne would not have felt the need to make this change. I never felt that I was going to be banned for taking a mod, testing it, finding major flaws, then going back giving it a low rating and telling the author in plain language that his work was seriously messed up and that it needed fixing. On the few occasions that happened, I usually didn't rate and I always tired to tell the author how to fix the problem if I could. As long as people are willing to do that they should have nothing at all to fear from the moderating staff.

But it's quite a bit better than the 1-10 system that nearly completely prevented people from rating a Mod anything lower than an 10 for fear of being banned.

What are Buddah, LHammonds, Slof and BBen? Machines? They don't just ban someone because of a post being reported. They do bother to look at what the person wrote. If the modder just doesn't like hearing the turth, then they don't do anything. I've seen several comments where someone had reported something and Buddah had come in checked out the post in question, then checked the file, and found the same problem. I'm sorry Offkorn, but I think you are reading feelings that arn't there.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Smith099

[Offkorn]

Indeed, but what is his definition of 'disagree'? Could not saying that you dislike the Mod for whatever reason be seen as disagreement? Does he even have any right to report people he doesn't like? How, exactly, is that any different from those making the 'disagreeable' comments?

 

Quite frankly: His attitude nicely encompasses everything that is wrong with 'Modders'. Sorry to say, but just because you alter some values for someone else's game doesn't make you infallible or mystically immune to criticism. If you do not want "bad" feedback, do not publicly release your Mod. It's quite simple. The world (read: Internet) would be a far better place if more people did that instead of whining because they discovered there's someone out there who doesn't like them.

 

Mod for yourself or for others; not for meaningless positive feedback. Narcissistic Echo Chambers help no one.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Offkorn

[Smith099]

Considering that he is the one remaking Morrowind's Simple Prostitution System. (emphasis added) I think you can understand why he felt it necessary. (As a very wise man once said: "Why is it OK to blow up somebody's head, chainsaw off their arms and splatter them all over the wasteland but get all squeamish when SEX is mentioned?!?")

And Ozone said "offensive" not diagreeing.

 

Furthermore, Neither one of us really cares about ratings. He did post a reminder to people, but I think that that was due to everyone saying how much they like his mods, but never rating. Out of my 14 mods, 5 have endorsements, and the one with the most has 7. If I was doing this for the ratings, I'd have quit a long time ago.

(*Sarcasm Warning*)

"No one likes my mods! The horror, the rejection, I'm scared for life! Goodbye Crule Modding Community, I kill my self because no one likes me."

I'm not a Goth, thanks very much.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Smith099