Was it just me Dawnguard?

[fuquan1576]

What level were you when you did Dawnguard, when I first did it I was around 20 or 25, I was tardy for the Skyrim part and didn't get it till after Dawnguard was out so I got Dawnguard with Skyrim.

[Hyacathusarullistad]

I'm not sure which of those complaints don't also relate to Dawnguard.

 

'Empty' Content: Um...Solstheim was packed with stuff. Everywhere you looked was a location or landmark or something. More importantly, most of the designs, models and textures you were seeing were new and different from same old Skyrim. Meanwhile Dawnguard's faction questlines and biggest side quest had you traipsing back and forth across the mainland a dozen times just to make it feel longer. Yet other than the Forgotten Vale 90% of what you were seeing was same old, same old.

 

... I'm sorry, but what game did you play? Solstheim is a wasteland. Two thirds of the worldspace is literally completely blank. Scenery peppered with some renamed faceless bandits. And the areas that did actually have anything to do were, as you say of the Dawnguard content, basically the same thing as in Skyrim proper - Nordic ruins. Oh my apologies, one of them had a shiny new puzzle door opened by a glitched-to-hell two handed weapon no one used after finding. The only exception is the Apocrypha dungeons, which really when you get down to it are re-themed vanilla ruins with lousier loot. At least an enchanted dagger will sell for a few septims; what are we supposed to do with a slew of 3 septim books that no merchant will pay for?

 

Dawnguard used the same meshes and textures as the rest of Skyrim because it takes place in Skyrim. And even so, both faction bases have unique models and textures, and all Dawnguard-specific dungeons and locations have unique spins on and/or additions to vanilla models that make them feel distinct. The exception might be Arcwind Point, which does use standard Skyrim assets to the point where even I didn't even realise it was part of Dawnguard until I got to the world wall. But I'd say that's a pro, not a con - it fits in Skyrim, and didn't feel shoehorned in as part of an expansion.

 

 

Shouts: Dawnguard only adds 3 shouts, and one is essentially just a tool to get the third. Dragonborn has 3 useful shouts, and one being 'nerfed' is a weak complaint because unlimited use would be broken and overpowered when combined with other shouts.

 

The notion that Summon Durnehviir is only useful as a lead-in to Soul Tear is laughable. Durnehviir is a powerful summoned ally in his own right, with a shout only useable by himself, the player, and the highest-tier dragons in the game, and the ability to make summons himself. Soul Tear is incredibly powerful in boss fights, where you can kill a swarm of minions in a single shout and watch as they all get back up and are now working for you; and Drain Vitality is one of the most useful shouts in the game (provided you have all three words - I'll grant you that before that its usefulness is definitely diminished), again particularly in boss fights. And if you combine the two, and get Drain Vitality going on the guy who's fighting through his former minions to get to you?

 

I contend that only one shout from Dragonborn is actually usable, and that's Cyclone. Bend Will does nothing after the DLC quest (again, unless you count the half working dragon riding mechanic), Battle Fury is absolutely pointless, and Dragon Aspect is, granted, awesome... but it positively wreaks of laziness - there are far better ways to balance its abilities than just tossing a usage cap at it.

 

 

Cardboard Characters: same boat besides Serana, which 50% of players seem to find annoying. Harkon is a better villain than Miraak but finishing the questline and realizing the prophecy was fake makes him a lot less threatening.

 

The Dawnguard NPCs are no more or less bland than the default Skyrim ones. I'll grant you that gladly. And yes, Dawnguard has Serana, the only non-modded follower I can personally bear to use. But 70% of the Dragonborn characters have literally zero practical purpose beyond filling space. And even the "critical" characters have absolutely nothing to say to you or do with/for you. They just exist as plot devices. At least Sorine and Gunmar have thoughts, missions, stores, meaningful AI activities... the same cannot be said for the Skaal, citzens of Raven Rock, or any of the space wasters at Tel Mithyrn (except for Neloth, I suppose, who I'll admit to liking immensely).

 

You say that Harkon becomes less threatening when you learn the prophecy was fake, but I think you misunderstand. The prophecy is not a fake, but rather a real, feasible plan Vyrthur concocted, intending to enact it himself once someone in possession of a Daughter of Coldharbour's blood, the most difficult ingredient for him to obtain, came looking for Auriel's Bow. And even if you were correct, at least Harkon seemed a threat. Miraak was never given any sort of opportunity for development, and never really seemed like a threat at all. He was a minor inconvenience to the player because he kept stealing dragon souls from you. That's about it.

 

I think we can agree, though, that defeating both Miraak and Harkon was both incredibly underwhelming in the end, as far as loot is concerned. Not much mods can do to make Harkon's loot more appealing to a vampire hunter, either. There are some stellar mods for Miraak equipment, though.

 

 

Armor: Same deal with Dawnguard.

 

I can't argue much on the armours. The Dawnguard ones expanded on existing lore and creatures, but little else. While the Dragonborn ones were Morrowind-style throwbacks for the sake of diversity in a new worldspace. I'll give you a draw on that one.

 

 

And I say all this as a fan of both DLCs. I just think Dragonborn stands up better on its own. Dawnguard adds good stuff to the main game, but playing through its main and side quests and ignoring the rest of the game is incredibly tedious.

 

The same can be said for Skyrim's main story as well - it sends you across the map multiple times for little reason other than showing off the worldspace (Diplomatic Immunity is a prime example of this; such a depressingly poorly written mission). Dragonborn isn't innocent of this either, with its quest sending across a forcedly enlarged worldspace for the sake of it. At least the Dawnguard story exists apart from the Skyrim main quest. You can head to the Rift at level 8, and work your way up to slaying Harkon all without ever having set foot in Bleak Falls Barrow. You ever try going to Solstheim before learning you were Dragonborn? It's a whole lot of pointless as a standalone worldspace. And a level 8 character has extremely little to do there otherwise, as most of its dungeons are either quest-locked, take thousands of gold to get into, or are geared towards higher level characters.

 

I appreciate Dragonborn for what it is. In fact, I do enjoy it immensely regardless of the problems I have with it. Because those problems really only mean anything to me when someone tries to say that Dawnguard was weaker, or "worse' in any quantifiable way. It isn't. I realise I've gotten kind of vicious in defending it here, and I'm sorry for that. But the claim that Dragonborn is "universally seen as the better of the two" is incredibly frustrating to me, because it's really not better at all, in any respect.

 

Actually, I take that back. Dragonborn is in fact better in one respect, at least, and that's in the addition of new ambient music for Solstheim. That alone makes it feel like a different place far better than new ground textures or a different colour palette could have on their own. It would have been nice if Dawnguard had used dark, creepy music for places like Dimhollow Crypt or Castle Volkihar, and maybe unique battle music for vampire attacks.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Hyacathusarullistad

[Bloodinfested]

I liked both dlcs but preferred the dragonborn over dawnguard. Although maybe its because I played 1000's of hours of Morrowind and seeing atlest parts of Morrowind brings back good memories... had the same music too :D

[TenderHooligan]

 

... I'm sorry, but what game did you play? Solstheim is a wasteland. Two thirds of the worldspace is literally completely blank. Scenery peppered with some renamed faceless bandits. And the areas that did actually have anything to do were, as you say of the Dawnguard content, basically the same thing as in Skyrim proper - Nordic ruins. Oh my apologies, one of them had a shiny new puzzle door opened by a glitched-to-hell two handed weapon no one used after finding. The only exception is the Apocrypha dungeons, which really when you get down to it are re-themed vanilla ruins with lousier loot. At least an enchanted dagger will sell for a few septims; what are we supposed to do with a slew of 3 septim books that no merchant will pay for?

 

Dawnguard used the same meshes and textures as the rest of Skyrim because it takes place in Skyrim. And even so, both faction bases have unique models and textures, and all Dawnguard-specific dungeons and locations have unique spins on and/or additions to vanilla models that make them feel distinct. The exception might be Arcwind Point, which does use standard Skyrim assets to the point where even I didn't even realise it was part of Dawnguard until I got to the world wall. But I'd say that's a pro, not a con - it fits in Skyrim, and didn't feel shoehorned in as part of an expansion.

 

Did you want them to rewrite the lore? Solstheim was a wasteland because of Red Mountain. It fit the story. Maybe it's not to your taste, but it's not anything like vanilla Skyrim. And even if the overworld is relatively empty, it takes 7-8 minutes to cross the entire island. And it's still full of points of interest (fast travel locations) to the point that it feels more claustrophobic than Skyrim. And let's be honest, it's not like Skyrim is bursting with colors and interesting landscapes outside of a select few areas to begin with.

 

And you're completely ignoring places like Ravenrock and Tel Mithryn which are nothing like anything you'd find in Skyrim and far more unique than anything added in Dawnguard. And even the dungeons that were similar (Nordic & Dwemer ruins) were often very different/unique than their Skyrim equivalents (the trials of Kagrumez, using all the cubes and swimming/fighting in the sunken Dwemer ruin), as or even more dramatically different than Dawnguard's tweaks to similar dungeons. And while I won't argue with the fact that I think they could've done more with Apocrypha, it is far and away the most unique dungeon/location/what have you in TESV. The closest Dawnguard equivalent is the Soul Cairn, which I happen to be playing in right now, and that is far more vanilla by comparison. (not to mention boring and empty to borrow your description of Solstheim). I guess I understand your complaint. Personally I'd disagree considering my character is usually kitted out to the max already by then and my favorite lore book series is only available in Apocrypha (unless you're a thief).

 

And if you're talking about glitches, I encountered zero on my most recent playthrough of Dragonborn. Meanwhile, Chasing Echoes broke 4 times after arriving in Valerica's lab and I had to use the console several times to get through it. Mind you, I don't hold this against Dawnguard more than Dragonborn. All Bethesda games are glitchy and when/where you have a gamebreaking bug or not is random and different for everyone. Which is the only thing I really take offense to in your entire argument. Just because your Dragonborn experience was glitchy, doesn't mean that DLC is more prone to issues than Skyrim/Dawnguard for anyone else.

 

 

The notion that Summon Durnehviir is only useful as a lead-in to Soul Tear is laughable. Durnehviir is a powerful summoned ally in his own right, with a shout only useable by himself, the player, and the highest-tier dragons in the game, and the ability to make summons himself. Soul Tear is incredibly powerful in boss fights, where you can kill a swarm of minions in a single shout and watch as they all get back up and are now working for you; and Drain Vitality is one of the most useful shouts in the game (provided you have all three words - I'll grant you that before that its usefulness is definitely diminished), again particularly in boss fights. And if you combine the two, and get Drain Vitality going on the guy who's fighting through his former minions to get to you?

I contend that only one shout from Dragonborn is actually usable, and that's Cyclone. Bend Will does nothing after the DLC quest (again, unless you count the half working dragon riding mechanic), Battle Fury is absolutely pointless, and Dragon Aspect is, granted, awesome... but it positively wreaks of laziness - there are far better ways to balance its abilities than just tossing a usage cap at it.

 

The problem I have with Durnehviir despite your good points about his strengths is twofold. One: he's unusuable in interior spaces, which is where most 'challenging' combat that would require a dragon ally might occur. Two: his level. If I'm ever in a fight where I feel like I 'need' a summon to survive (the way I might 'need' a Cyclone to get some breathing room in a room full of enemies or a Dragon Aspect to survive), he is too weak to make a huge difference besides a distraction. Now a distraction can be the difference between life and death, but I could also just bring a follower tank or two and save my shout for something else.

 

The other two shouts are powerful (might even say THE most powerful shouts in the game), but as you pointed out one is useless without all three words. Bend Will can be used on things besides Dragons as you remember, right? Need an ally while you take on Krosis? Bend Will the dragon. Getting swarmed by bandits? Bend Will the bandit chief, removing your biggest threat and giving you a powerful ally at the same time. Now I never use this shout either, but if you think summoning Durnehviir is useful I don't see how you can think this a useless shout. Battle Fury is useless, and while they could've balanced Dragon Aspect better, I think we can agree that if we start "Bethesda should've done X with Y", we could nitpick every element of both expansions and the main game.

 

 

The Dawnguard NPCs are no more or less bland than the default Skyrim ones. I'll grant you that gladly. And yes, Dawnguard has Serana, the only non-modded follower I can personally bear to use. But 70% of the Dragonborn characters have literally zero practical purpose beyond filling space. And even the "critical" characters have absolutely nothing to say to you or do with/for you. They just exist as plot devices. At least Sorine and Gunmar have thoughts, missions, stores, meaningful AI activities... the same cannot be said for the Skaal, citzens of Raven Rock, or any of the space wasters at Tel Mithyrn (except for Neloth, I suppose, who I'll admit to liking immensely).

You say that Harkon becomes less threatening when you learn the prophecy was fake, but I think you misunderstand. The prophecy is not a fake, but rather a real, feasible plan Vyrthur concocted, intending to enact it himself once someone in possession of a Daughter of Coldharbour's blood, the most difficult ingredient for him to obtain, came looking for Auriel's Bow. And even if you were correct, at least Harkon seemed a threat. Miraak was never given any sort of opportunity for development, and never really seemed like a threat at all. He was a minor inconvenience to the player because he kept stealing dragon souls from you. That's about it.

I think we can agree, though, that defeating both Miraak and Harkon was both incredibly underwhelming in the end, as far as loot is concerned. Not much mods can do to make Harkon's loot more appealing to a vampire hunter, either. There are some stellar mods for Miraak equipment, though.

 

Serana and Katria are the only Dawnguard characters that stand out to me. Neloth as you said is the only Dragonborn character on their level (maybe Hermaeus Mora as well?). There're other decent characters in both expansions, but both DLC feel pretty equal (and overall a step down from general Skyrim characters) and feature plenty of 'quest dispenser' cardboard characters. And characters like Ralis and Frea are equal or even superior in my opinion to Sorine and Gunmar.

 

And I feel the opposite about the threat of Harkon vs. Miraak. You have Serana and the scroll with you the entire storyline, two things Harkon needs. And the game does a poor job of making it seem like he's trying to get her back. And he never even comes close to Auriel's bow. Without that, all he can do is raid Skyrim with vampires now and then, but that's practically mundane in a world with bandits, monsters and dragons around every corner. And if you fulfill the prophecy, you find out 1) the effect isn't permanent and 2) has no effect on anyone else besides your character if you're a vampire. I understand this was done for gameplay/mechanics, but it really undermines the whole 'tyranny of the sun' threat. With Miraak, even if he can't escape Apocrypha without your soul, he can still subjugate all of Solstheim while still trapped which makes him seem a more proactive villain (despite being imprisoned) and more powerful. Not to mention the soul stealing thing makes it far harder to just ignore him than ignoring Harkon. Their loot was indeed disappointing. I just know I use a lot more Dragonborn items (Stalhrim & Chitin armor/weapons, Dwarven Black Bow, Chaos Enchantment, 3 shouts, Ahzidal's armor (for enchanting), 3 elemental dragon masks, some of the Black Book abilities, bound dagger, whirlwind cloak) than Dawnguard (crossbow, Auriel's Bow, Aetherial Crown, Ancient Falmer armor, 2 shouts, heal undead, Werewolf/Vampire Lord powers/perks), which is another point in my books for the former.

 

 

The same can be said for Skyrim's main story as well - it sends you across the map multiple times for little reason other than showing off the worldspace (Diplomatic Immunity is a prime example of this; such a depressingly poorly written mission). Dragonborn isn't innocent of this either, with its quest sending across a forcedly enlarged worldspace for the sake of it. At least the Dawnguard story exists apart from the Skyrim main quest. You can head to the Rift at level 8, and work your way up to slaying Harkon all without ever having set foot in Bleak Falls Barrow. You ever try going to Solstheim before learning you were Dragonborn? It's a whole lot of pointless as a standalone worldspace. And a level 8 character has extremely little to do there otherwise, as most of its dungeons are either quest-locked, take thousands of gold to get into, or are geared towards higher level characters.

I appreciate Dragonborn for what it is. In fact, I do enjoy it immensely regardless of the problems I have with it. Because those problems really only mean anything to me when someone tries to say that Dawnguard was weaker, or "worse' in any quantifiable way. It isn't. I realise I've gotten kind of vicious in defending it here, and I'm sorry for that. But the claim that Dragonborn is "universally seen as the better of the two" is incredibly frustrating to me, because it's really not better at all, in any respect.

Actually, I take that back. Dragonborn is in fact better in one respect, at least, and that's in the addition of new ambient music for Solstheim. That alone makes it feel like a different place far better than new ground textures or a different colour palette could have on their own. It would have been nice if Dawnguard had used dark, creepy music for places like Dimhollow Crypt or Castle Volkihar, and maybe unique battle music for vampire attacks.

 

Most quests are poorly done (I hate how I keep criticizing the game/expansions when I've gotten so much enjoyment from them) and imo it's not worth delving into. I was talking about seeing the expansions as separate from the main game, because that's the only fair way to compare them. Dragonborn's quest only feels spread out if you don't want to explore all the things you find along the way and do the side quests you come across. With Dawnguard, unless you fast travel everywhere, and unless you HEAVILY rely on quests/events/locations from vanilla Skyrim, you are just running through empty space for hours. You spend more time traveling than you do actually playing the quests. I'll admit that by definition this means Dawnguard is (mostly) better integrated into the Skyrim world, which is distinct advantage over Dragonborn. But it also essentially means that the DLC requires the main game to keep you entertained as you play through it. Dragonborn may feel empty and spread out, but per square inch of land you cover it is a hundred times denser with new content than Dawnguard. If you want to say Dawnguard+Skyrim is superior to Dragonborn+Dawnguard, you may be right. But it's also unfair to look at it that way because of the bias created whether your favor separate world spaces vs an integrated expansion. So look at it as though you've already 100%'d vanilla Skyrim and have just installed Dawnguard and Dragonborn on that save for the first time. In that light, getting an entire new worldspace to explore with 100% new content seems a lot more appealing and interesting than spreading that same amount of content over an area 3-5 times larger with nothing to do in between. As for your point about having nothing to do in Solstheim before seeing the Grey Beards, a lot (2/3rds) of Dawnguard's questline is locked until you acquire the Elder Scroll in the main questline, which is 7 quests further along that same questline than what you need to do to fully unlock Dragonborn.

 

Anyway I don't have a problem with people preferring Dawnguard over Dragonborn since it is pretty subjective (though the fact that DB was more well-received by critics and players than DG is indeed fact). I just thought your original response to the OP was very (unfairly) negative to DB in comparison to DG and didn't paint an accurate picture of that DLC. And I never thought you were vicious in your responses or in defending DG, just overly negative of DB in comparison.

Edited February 1, 2014 by TenderHooligan

[kleinstaff]

I used to play alot of the old fashion paper and dice rpg and i still do sometimes

 

sometims as gamemaster sometimes just as a player but what i know if I or any gamemaster came up with a scenario like dawnguard especially the quest where you find serana the players would not stand for it and would have walked out in the worse case scenario

the fact thar serana is essential is the biggest immersionkiller of the dlc

it is pretty easy to add a esecond character to replace serana if you play on the dawnguard side

one obvious that comes to my mind is dexter the mothpriest

 

but they didn't i think it had more to do with the limitations of consoles than with lack of imagination

[SayinNuthin]

 

 

The other two shouts are powerful (might even say THE most powerful shouts in the game), but as you pointed out one is useless without all three words. Bend Will can be used on things besides Dragons as you remember, right? Need an ally while you take on Krosis? Bend Will the dragon. Getting swarmed by bandits? Bend Will the bandit chief, removing your biggest threat and giving you a powerful ally at the same time. Now I never use this shout either, but if you think summoning Durnehviir is useful I don't see how you can think this a useless shout.

 

 

 

Has anyone any tips for 'stabilizing' Bend Will? When it works it can cause (quite hilarious) havoc among the opposition at the Battle of Whiterun, when it doesn't work it can break the whole damned game. Easily on of my favourites but it seems to be flaky in proportion to the 'plot-significance' of event. Is there just too much going on at BoW?

[dubbad29]

In case anyone's short a couple pennies, here are my two cents:

 

I prefer Dawnguard's story/ plot, but think Dragonborn added better content.

 

Dawnguard:

So there's Serana. She's the most fleshed out character in TESV and in my opinion one of the most entertaining followers to have around (Inigo takes the cake here). My one problem with her was that I thought the whole "developement of trust" theme was way overplayed, especially in the player's first few encounters with her. Another think I like about Dawnguard is that the main quest feels important, especially compared to that of Dragonborn. Save Nirn from eternal dominion under vampires vs. prevent one nutjob from taking over a baren island. The Dawnguard quests take you all over the map, and add enough new locations (Forgotten Vale was beautiful, and I also want to give a shoutout to Ancestor Glave, also very nice) to keep things interesting. I also like that it was unpredicable at times, epsecially if you join the vampires.

 

Dragonborn:

Deathbrand armor. Nuff said. JK, there's more, although Deathbrand armor is the best. While I wasn't a fan of the ashen expanses of Solstheim, I loved all the little things that Dragonborn added here and there. From the werewolf rings, to spider machines, to Glover and his little secret ;). The MQ was underwhelming and formulaic at best (Hero's Journey? Been there, done that). The side quests were alright, but again, DB really shines in the small details. I could spend a whole day talking about the summonable merchant and my reikling friends, but that's what UESP is here for.

 

TL;DR: DG quests, story, and premise > DB quests, story, and premise

DB content & features > DG content & features

[Faelrin]

To be honest I felt like Dragonborn was the shorter of the two (not counting Hearthfire here) if we're just talking about the main quests. Then again I always took my time in the Soul Cairn and Valley exploring for loot. Never could really explore much in Apocrypha. Though I did enjoy both since both had good stuff throughout the quest lines. But if we're talking about overall quest content then I think Dragonborn would be longer because all of Solstheim seriously.