Holds

[MissShaoHuan]

Oh dear, I can only suggest contacting mod authors who have previously made patches for Interesting NPCs. Might be worth checking other mods that add NPCs and see how they do it? Anna NPCs, Inigo etc.

[Galandil]

Oh dear, I can only suggest contacting mod authors who have previously made patches for Interesting NPCs. Might be worth checking other mods that add NPCs and see how they do it? Anna NPCs, Inigo etc.

Worst case scenario the markers will be moved to outside the city gates. ... I have spoken with the mod author but he doesn't quite seem to understand why it happenes. Also noticed that if I close the CK and reload, the changes I made aren't loaded. They are still stored in the mod, according to Tes5Edit, but they are not visible. Very, Very annoying.

[MissShaoHuan]

Wow it must be :confused: I wish I could help but have no knowledge of patching mods.

[Galandil]

Wow it must be :confused: I wish I could help but have no knowledge of patching mods.

I would assume, that by changing the target of the packages would force the CK to recognize the changes. If not, then at least the game will recognize the change. Still annoying tho...

 

Almost done- hopefully with Falkreath. Have to link the quests to the markers as well. Once that's done all that is left is Dawnstar.

 

@Edit; Okay. Done with Falkreath. Will now look into Dawnstar. .... Sometimes I wish I had a patch-guy.

 

@Edit02; Thankfully much less stuff I need to do in Dawnstar. Once Dawnstar is finished, I will head to bed. But when its done, interesting NPC's should be compatible :wink:

Next is UFO and Convenient Horses.

 

@Edit03; Hmm. Odd. The Creation Kit has duplicated my Dawnstar worldspace, so any edits done to it would be pointless, as it points to the wrong worldspace, and refuses to let me put stuff in the Dawnstar Worldspace. Luckily Dawnstar is divided between the Tamriel worldspace, and the Dawnstar worldspace, and since there are so few markers I could.... shove them elsewhere, I fear how this will effect quests- may be a little un-immersive to meet meet Frik the sailor in a bar rather then the ship which he was supposed to be on. But this is a temporary fix until I can get some help, so far all purposes it should be compatible and problem-less, but we will have to have someone take a closer look at this after release, as if I sit with this much longer I'll fall behind and I have a few more mods to create compatibility for, as well as separating the content for optional modular versions.

 

@Edit04; Okay. We now have compatibility with Interesting NPC's. A very imperfect compatibility, wouldn't mind having someone with more experience with this looking it over and fixing whatever issues they come upon in the future- But for now, we have a working patch which makes the two mods playable together. In the interiors it works 100% as it should, in Falkreath it works, in Dawnstar it works but clumsily so as some markers are not entirely where they should be, an example: A specific mine Ironbreaker mines markers for Interesting NPC's is actually at quicksilver mine, the markers outside Windpeak Inn is over at the Jarl's Longhouse the White Hall. This is necessary for now, as the worldspace Dawnstar has had a minor hickup and duplicated itself in the patch. This makes any edits done in this duplicated worldspace incapable of effecting the original worldspace, and trying to set its ID correctly creates errors.

 

 

@Edit05; Hm. Nope. I'm done with this mess. The patch suddenly removed all of my work on the Falkreath worldspace. As far as I'm concerned there is something about Interesting NPCs which refuses to let it work as patching works well with the other mods we need to patch. I have wasted a day on this and while the interior edits, and the edits in the Tamriel worldspace remains. I am not sitting on this any longer then I have already before release. Something does not click and I sadly do not have the time to figure this out. Hopefully someone who is better at this can take a look at this after release, as I cannot make this work.

 

- Because I recognize how essential interesting Npc's is to a modded game I am willing to try one last thing. Sadly this will require me to literally start over with interesting npcs, and I think it is something I will do last... For obvious reasons. It is to make a standalone version of Holds dependable on Interesting NPC's, as a mere esp rather then an esm and see if that solves all the problems. If it does then I now know what interiors have incompatibilities and what exteriors. Progress should be a lot faster and I should be able to finish it up before release, though- I wonder if this means I will have to create compatibility patches for this new stand-alone version from scratch. Technically the compatibility patches only edits certain ID's which would also be used by the new stand-alone- on the other hand those patches are also dependent upon a specific version of Holds which is not the version with the interesting npcs as a dependency and all of the dependency fixes..... I will look into it.

 

Patch was apparently not required for convenient horses, and I have now created a compatibility patch with UFO; Moving the horse outside of Solitude to the farmstead rather then blocking the entrance to the Instrument shop. Once I've had some sleep I'll look into Interesting NPC's again.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Galandil

[Galandil]

Okay... The problem persists even if I use Holds as an .esp and Interesting NPCs as a .esm. Sorry guys. Look I'll still release a patch for Interesting NPC's, but till this can get fixed properly. You will have to go outside of Falkreath's city gates in order to find the markers and triggers for the interesting NPC's stuff. Very, very annoying, but I fear I cannot understand why this happens or how to fix it... The Interesting NPC mod literally nullifies any additional content aside from vanilla and its own content, the only changes it allows is in the interiors and moving the interesting npcs objects and markers around.

 

An alternative would be to try using Interesting NPC's as an .esp, I have permission to alter whatever I like but I feel uncomfortable adding a different version esp of interesting NPC's on my mod page, as it is not my mod... I'll speak to the mod author but...

 

@Edit: 'kay. I know whats causing it now. Apparently by having Holds and Interesting NPC's run simultaneously I overstep the load limit of the Creation Kit. There is a workaround for this, by removing certain unused content from the patch, such as Holds locations, NPC's, and making the patch with only Interesting NPC's content, I may be able to make this work. Will try it.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Galandil

[Galandil]

Good news everyone! :geek:

 

I have resolved the issue and can now start working on the interesting npcs compatibility patch without problems. Now that the puzzling problem has been fixed, we need not worry about markers having to be moved in order to create compatibility and they can now be placed where they should be.

 

But because this issue has slowed down progress so much, I fear how much more I can get done before release, I am now behind schedule.

 

I will still release on April the 1st as promised, but I may be a little delayed with the modular patches, or at least all of them.

 

I hope people are still looking forward to Holds :sweat:

Edited March 30, 2016 by Galandil

[WBizzyW]

Absolutely I look forward to this. One thing came to my mind about the nordic gods. Does your mod adds new shrines/chapels? One thing that bordered me about my favourite city mods, is that they tried to add chapels of the remaning of the nine, which didn't have any sort of temple like zenithar or Stendarr, which, in my opinion, weakens the uniqueness of the Nords even more. Well now some can say, that the nords adopted more or less the Imperial gods, but thats just plainly boring (and it's compeletly stupid the Nords lived under thousands of years under Empires and never switched, why should they do that under the relativ weak Mede Empire that heavily relies on the Nords good will) and even when, the old worship would not immidately dissapear.

 

Well the real reason is, that the full grown nordic religion got not in the game, because some developer thought in the concept phase that this would confuse players (Yeah Betheseda doesn't seem to think highly of their player base).

 

This the original concept: http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/post/128602974278/excerpt-from-a-tesv-skyrim-design-document-with

 

Makes much more sense, then what we have in game, it explains for example why Talos is so important for the nords, a fact that we don't even know ingame. But also it is kind of ingame as the only gods that have temples in the game, are the only gods the Nords really worship Kyne, Dibella and Mara.

 

The only contratiction that we have are the Talos Temple in Windhelm and the Arkay Priests. The Talos Temple is easily explained, that he was comissioned by Ulfric, who ironically adapts a more imperial style worship of that deity to strengthen his course.

 

But the main reason why I tell you this, it would fit nicely with the Arkay cult that you have planned with Falkreath, because, your lore could explain, how the colovian influenced Falkreath cult spread over Skyrim because it's quite practicaly to have Priests tend to the death, although some Nords should be very wary of these priests as they viewed that god for thousands of years as an trickster and enemy of their people.

 

As I understand you mod wants to make Skyrim a more unique place and I think this different understanding of Religion from the nords could really add to this.

 

 

(And sorry for my english, I tipped this a bit fast for my english skills)

[Galandil]

The way that Skyrim completely ignored the Nordic religion which should have been very much still alive and dominant in Skyrim and simply exchanged it for the more familiar Nine/eight Divines bothered me as well. What I've done with Holds is that I've figured that since the Oblivion crisis the Imperial Cult has focused missionaries towards Skyrim and as such eroded most of the Nordic pantheon from most of the major cities. I've written several books on this topic which takes inspiration from Norway's conversion to Christianity and how it was a long process which for a very long time had Christianity as a very different religion then the rest of Europe.

 

Solitude is very assimilated into the Imperial customs and as such honors the eight divines.

 

Dawnstar keeps to its old ways and the Nordic Religion though its outlook on religion is different in how the world was formed, how it should end, and how to lay the dead to rest. Very much influenced by its enviroment, honored and still kept Atmorian customs, and its isolated location. Its outlook on life is shaped around the perspective of the cold, and the sea.

 

Falkreath is very dedicated to the god Arkay, though they honor him in their own way. They also honor Kyne as a god of the dead, storms and nature as she is believed to seal the worthy man's passage to Sovngarde with an icy kiss.

Windhelm is all about Talos right now but will also refer to the gods with their Nordic names, and will not appear to honor the elven gods. This will become much clearer when I create dialogues and Quests for the area.

 

Whiterun finds itself being influenced by the Imperial pantheon, they refer to Kyne's temple as Kynareth, and so on. However as I start adding quests and dialogues they will show to also honor Stuhn and Tsun, and referring to Malacath as Orkey.

 

Riften is fairly an open book at this point. There doesn't really seem to be that much of an religious influence upon the area. There is a temple to Mara, contemplating on whether or not she should be referred to as the Handmaiden of Kyne or to have her honored more within Imperial customs.

 

Essentially following the conversion of Scandinavia, missionaries would build chapels near burial sites and would first integrate their gods into the foreign religion and culture, before slowly and surely pushing the old ways aside. The books tell of people who've preformed great feats in sign of the southern ways superiority, or great outbreaks of battles which have been fought due to frustration by the Nords. If you travel to the settlements in Skyrim you will find that they still cling to their old ways and have been majorly un-affected by the Imperial Cult.

 

As for shrines, well I have created a few shrines, but I have not yet added activation's on them.. Sadly, I will in due time when I can figure out proper effects. Among shrines there are also altars which are reminiscent of the Oblivion chapel altar which will simply cure all deceases. As I recall I have only placed two of those. The chapel of Akatosh in Solitude, and the Chapel of Arkay in Falkreath. Aside from a new chapel in Solitude on the faithful walkway, and perhaps the conversion of a simple hut to a proper chapel for Falkreath's chapel, there aren't any new real chapels. There is supposedly a shrine to Shor in Dawnstar's Hall of the Dead, and at the Lainterdale Meadhall, will likely be more in the future.

 

Do let me know what you think of this concept. As there are no quests or dialogues as of yet everything is subject to change. :smile:

Edited March 30, 2016 by Galandil

[WBizzyW]

I'm a bit torn on the adaption of the real life christian conversation, as I think an important aspect of preoblivion TES, is that i not follows the typical tropes. Also the Empire has religious freedom, but yeah the existence of the Imperial Cult is I think a very important factor, as I recall this faction is not even mentioned in Skyrim.

 

As for the worship in general, I think it's important to convey, that they worship the gods differently, if at all. They don't really have chapels, only the three female gods get really worshiped, I think the "huts of important witches" (ideal place Mothal?) or this huts build on pikes for Kyne is an interessting concept from the design document. Also I always thought that Kyne would have a female Shieldmaiden faction, maybe some are Stormcloacks. I think in TESO, there is something of this sort in Kynesgrove.

 

As for the other gods, I think that most nords should look very suspicious on the imperial Akatosh worship (Yeah I know there is this Akatosh isn't Alduin Book, but this just a lame and lazy explanation from Betheseda, also each Nord will view that differently). As for the other Nordic gods I think they shouldn't have priests, except of course for Talos (Some Talos Totems in various homes would be nice), and their shrines should be maybe more "Hero honor places" as they don't directly worship the dead gods, maybe the Shor shrine could be a bit creepy? Also Jhunal (the nordic predecessor of Julianos) could have a forgotten shrine in the ruins of Winterhold, as his worshipped already died out in Morrowind and Oblivion time, but I think this god could have been still worshiped in Old Winterhold, as he fits the place.

 

For Orkey (who is, this is the interessting thing a combination of Malacath and Arkey) and Herma-Mora "the Woodlandman", maybe obscour totem like things in the Wildernis.

 

 

A nice insperation for lore of Skyrim is the forum section of the Morrowind: Home of The Nords Mod project: http://project-tamriel.com/viewforum.php?f=20

Edited March 30, 2016 by WBizzyW

[erehwonnz]

 

Essentially following the conversion of Scandinavia, missionaries would build chapels near burial sites and would first integrate their gods into the foreign religion and culture, before slowly and surely pushing the old ways aside. The books tell of people who've preformed great feats in sign of the southern ways superiority, or great outbreaks of battles which have been fought due to frustration by the Nords. If you travel to the settlements in Skyrim you will find that they still cling to their old ways and have been majorly un-affected by the Imperial Cult.

 

I have to say, I'm looking forward greatly to this project. I plan to restart Skyrim soon and everything you've said and shared makes me more intrigued. Thank you for all of your hard work. To this concept in particular, I really appreciate the idea of bringing historical precedent into this world. The Gods aspect sounds really compelling.