Che Guevara

[Ghogiel]

Even the Chinese gave in, and just look at their growth under capitalism, they created a middle class, when there used to not be a middle class. You used to have party official's family, and the poor.

It is still a communist state!

 

and of course communism wouldn't work in the states- they whole countries economy is run on exploitation of something or someone somewhere, and would fail in an instant. actually it might work if the government forced it onto you< see what what i did there? oh the irony!

 

but forget that. but don't believe your health care costs were already probably more expensive than any other country in the world, and actually the service pretty much sucks already according to any statistics, ie WHO. The american people are getting milked already. So if you think your social is going to be bad, at least don't think your private health care is actually any good. I would think if the government stopped spending all your money on missiles, then people probably could have decent health care today, whether it is private or social. :pinch:

 

at any rate comparing capitalism and communism is pretty boring.

[JimboUK]

Even the Chinese gave in, and just look at their growth under capitalism, they created a middle class, when there used to not be a middle class. You used to have party official's family, and the poor.

It is still a communist state!

 

and of course communism wouldn't work in the states- they whole countries economy is run on exploitation of something or someone somewhere, and would fail in an instant. actually it might work if the government forced it onto you< see what what i did there? oh the irony!

 

but forget that. but don't believe your health care costs were already probably more expensive than any other country in the world, and actually the service pretty much sucks already according to any statistics, ie WHO. The american people are getting milked already. So if you think your social is going to be bad, at least don't think your private health care is actually any good. I would think if the government stopped spending all your money on missiles, then people probably could have decent health care today, whether it is private or social. :pinch:

 

at any rate comparing capitalism and communism is pretty boring.

 

China is a one party state run by a party that calls itself communist, their economy is capitalist. The recent astonishing growth we've seen there does not happen under communism, it is the result of cheap labour and market reforms.

[Ghogiel]

China is a one party state run by a party that calls itself communist, their economy is capitalist. The recent astonishing growth we've seen there does not happen under communism, it is the result of cheap labour and market reforms.

obviously it does happen under communism. ie it is right now in china. just because they are using some form of capitalism in the in the economic market place doesn't mean it is not still calling it self a communist state. < the state still owns/makes like most of the money for china even now it allows privatization.

 

for like 40 years USSR had the same economic growth as the US did. during the height what they were calling communism. until it basically started to implode, due to a multitude of reasons. least of which because it was run by nutters. anyway fast economic growth is not something that is impossible under communism, which is what you are suggesting actually saying

 

not only that russia was using some kind of capitalism since basically the start. like in the 20s or something. can't remember what that's all about, something like social capitalism market, iirc they basically did all the market like capitalism but the surplus money would get recycled into the state funds. or at least they should have done. and iirc china did something like that from day 1 as well.

 

edit: oh yeah, don't think for a second china has actually changed much, the state is still all up in everything, dipping their fingers. it is still heavily state controlled!

[Chaosblade02]

Even the Chinese gave in, and just look at their growth under capitalism, they created a middle class, when there used to not be a middle class. You used to have party official's family, and the poor.

It is still a communist state!

 

and of course communism wouldn't work in the states- they whole countries economy is run on exploitation of something or someone somewhere, and would fail in an instant. actually it might work if the government forced it onto you< see what what i did there? oh the irony!

 

but forget that. but don't believe your health care costs were already probably more expensive than any other country in the world, and actually the service pretty much sucks already according to any statistics, ie WHO. The american people are getting milked already. So if you think your social is going to be bad, at least don't think your private health care is actually any good. I would think if the government stopped spending all your money on missiles, then people probably could have decent health care today, whether it is private or social. :pinch:

 

at any rate comparing capitalism and communism is pretty boring.

 

You failed to see my point, people in the US don't trust government and don't see them as responsible enough to solve these problems. Time and time again, every chance the government gets, it makes themselves look like dumb ******.

[Ghogiel]

it's a catch 22 then. why would people trust a privatized insurance system that has a fundamental interest in not providing health care as much as possible. ie a large business whose sole aims are to turn as much profit as possible. which means not forking out as much as possible, charging as much as they can get away with, cuting the service as much as possible. all these things do not work in the peoples favor. the whole system needs a reform, and needs to be regulated so people are guaranteed good health coverage. i guess regulated by the government. the social care supposedly projected to save/make the government money, It must do, or else they'd never consider it.

 

since the government is supposed be a sort of benefactor to the people, for me, they would be a much better choice to be in charge of health care. i don't like the idea so much of a that some greedy company is in charge of that. < all the things that are *banned* up with health care, or like monsanto and privatized companies going mental couldn't happen in communism. that was actually one of the main reasons why Marx started writing, it's a way to fix the corruption and exploitations of the people found in capitalism. however what happened to some degree, is that in stead of a private business going mental, the state did, well they actually started out mental for the most part.

 

anyway, wait for china to start using GM crops, and not pay monsanto for their soya bean. I can't imagine that they will. maybe they will develop basically the same kind of thing.

[Maharg67]

This topic has clearly gone off topic. It was supposed to be about Che Guvara.

 

As a former Marxist, dare I say it, I came to be against Che Guvara and how he went about his business. Later, after Communist beliefs went, even more so. I was not the only Communist who saw through the rhetoric, the fantasy and saw the reckless fool and monster beneath.

 

Having said that, I still think that Che Guvara makes for a really cool looking Tshirt.

[grannywils]

Maharg67: I think you put it pretty well twice. This thread has gotten totally off the point, and I had long ago become bored with it anyway. But you said something else that helps to illustrate why I never could get behind Che when so many of my hippy friends were. I always had my reservations, and have said so many times on this thread. I think that he became something of a hypocrite. I don't know that he always was, but as I've said before I think he let his own "press" go to his head, and he became something of a thug and a bully. I am not a Communist, nor was I, but I do not believe that is or was the issue. The issue was whether or Che Guevara was ever the heroic icon people today are making him out to be. I will say again that I think as a youth he had legitimate concerns for his people but as a leader he failed miserably. This may have been primarily due to his ego, because he probably had the goods, but used them improperly. Enough from me on this subject.

[Sinophile]

and of course communism wouldn't work in the states- they whole countries economy is run on exploitation of something or someone somewhere, and would fail in an instant. actually it might work if the government forced it onto you< see what what i did there? oh the irony!

That is why it is called Capitalism, because you are Capitalising off of something or someone. As stated in other capitalism vs. socialism topics, a socialist/communist revolution would require bloodshed; The members of congress all own large amounts of private property. For Socialism to work, private property would have to be taken away from those who have the most of it(I.E. all lobbyists and members of congress). If someone wanted to take away 99% of what you own, would you let them take it without a fight? Likewise, there is no such thing as a peaceful revolution, just ask Oliver Cromwell.

 

 

This topic has clearly gone off topic. It was supposed to be about Che Guvara.

Yes it has, regardless of whether or not you agree with Che or his ideological beliefs, does he really deserve to be on a tshirt? What would Che think of the people Capitalising off his image?

 

Having said that, I still think that Che Guvara makes for a really cool looking Tshirt.

Would you buy a t-shirt with an image of George Washington, Pericles, Stalin or Hitler on it? Why Che?

 

 

 

I will say again that I think as a youth he had legitimate concerns for his people but as a leader he failed miserably. This may have been primarily due to his ego, because he probably had the goods, but used them improperly

I believe Castro had something to do with it. He convinced Che to leave the country, supposedly to spread Communism elsewhere. Once Che was out of the picture, he became more of a Tyrant. Castro had issues giving up power. George Washington gave up power not once but twice. What if Castro gave up power after a few years?

[Maharg67]

Having said that, I still think that Che Guvara makes for a really cool looking Tshirt.

Would you buy a t-shirt with an image of George Washington, Pericles, Stalin or Hitler on it? Why Che?

 

Sinophile, it was a 'tongue in cheek' comment. I would wear an image of George Washington or Pericles but the others? No!

[Ghogiel]

Likewise, there is no such thing as a peaceful revolution, just ask Oliver Cromwell.

Is that not blatantly a false statement?

 

I think there is such a thing. ie the fall of the berlin wall and reunification for example. i believe that is considered a revolution is it not? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaceful_Revolution

 

Cromwell indeed.