BLOG PIECE: Modding as a hobby versus modding as a career, and the position of the Nexus

[KingFeraligatr]

As a modder myself, I would never like to see mods get monetized. Yes, I know the article says that some modders sell their mods for profit, but I still think it shouldn't happen period. Yes, some of work hard for hundreds or thousands of hours, but I like that this is a hobbyist activity that we do for fun, skill improving, improving our game, and/or fame. I've seen greed just destroy many things, I wouldn't want my second favorite hobby to get corrupted by greed. If mods where more monetized, don't think things would be mostly the same. Maybe at first there wouldn't be much changes, but eventually the greed would overtake modding and make it go out of hand (even if not everyone would still charge for mods, a great many would). Heck, modding itself could maybe eventually fade away with monetized mods just so companies can pump you with transactions that have s*itty, cut content. We're all very fortunate that we do this free and get mods for free, let's keep that way. Don't let the corporations control yet another aspect of our life.

[Saerileth]

There's another reason why I view paid modding with trepidation. Currently modding is, as you say, a hobby, and we do it for personal use and because it's fun. Personally I share my work with the community not for the views or endorsements or compliments (though those things are flattering I'll admit), I do it because I enjoy discussing my hobby with like-minded people. Skyrim Nexus is to me what DeviantArt is for artists - a place to showcase and share something I care deeply about.

 

But I've noticed a trend of late that certain members of the community can become very... entitled, for lack of a better word (I say certain members, not all, I've met a lot of great people here and most of them are very friendly, but you know how it is, a few bad apples and all that). They view themselves as users of a mod (heck, I begin to think of my downloaders as such) and expect mod authors to provide stable, working mods in a professional manner. That in itself is not so unreasonable, I think it's common sense to thoroughly test a mod before uploading it. But we are not professionals, and the complexity becomes nigh unmanageable when one considers the myriad of different mods available that could possibly conflict with a given one. People expect mod authors to solve any and all issues presently, to know and check compatibility with any number of other mods, to produce compatibility patches and all manner of personalised installation options (e.g. texture sizes). The demands have risen to the point where I seriously considered taking a break from modding on numerous occasions.

 

The worst part is that some users (again, not all) show remarkably little willingness to put any amount of work into solving their own problems. The reasoning is that somehow the endorsement they give is of value to us and that we mod authors should be grateful for their support (that was a quote, someone actually said that to me once). Now I try very hard to be civil at all times, but when people do not even do me the courtesy of reading the description page (which I try to make as complete and professional as possible, even though that is something I do not enjoy doing much), even my temper flares. Consequently we've seen increasing hostility between mod authors and downloaders, to the point where people are afraid to ask any questions at all for fear of being blocked instantly.

 

Now I'll be as blunt as I can put it - I do not enjoy doing support work. If I'd wanted to be in support, I would have made that my career choice. As it is, I view it as a necessary evil when uploading mods, but knowing that I can take a break whenever I feel like it and that I don't actually owe these people anything really helps in keeping me sane. Imagine what would happen if people actually paid money to use your mods. It would certainly not improve attitudes, and moreover as customers they would actually be justified in expecting all these things. What happens if a mod doesn't work as advertised? Is the author responsible, or the owner of the marketplace? This is not so much a problem for games where the only UGC is hats and outfits, but in a game like Skyrim mods can affect each other in ways that cannot be forseen. More importantly, who would be responsible for sorting out people's problems with a mod? Most software companies hire an army of support people full-time, with good reason - I don't think a single person would be able to handle all the requests.

 

I know I would gladly forgo a bit of payment if it meant that I would not have to deal with these questions. The day free modding is no longer possible is the day I stop modding.

[zidders]

In response to post #23711399. #23717184, #23730209 are all replies on the same post.

It's not a mod. They completely overhauled it. Engine changes, models, graphics. Sure it -looks- like Homeworld but quite a bit more effort went into than goes into most games never mind mods.

[zidders]

In response to post #23719594.

To me at least it's not a question of whether they're 'worth' a certain amount although I would argue that -most- (but not all) mods are pretty worthless, Sturgeons law being what it is but as far as why it's important mods remain free...well like Dark0ne has pointed out-it's more than just about playing games. It's about expressing creativity and sharing the experience. It's like a bunch of artists creating together in a commune. What happens when you go from the primary motivation being shared creativity to the primary motivation being money?

I dunno...it's definitely a tricky situation but not everyone is saying modders are worthless or their mods have no value. Only idiots and people looking to take advantage of others are saying that.

[Lahha]

In response to post #23711399. #23717184, #23730209, #23737719 are all replies on the same post.

One key difference in my opinion is that you don't have to own the original Homeworld to buy and play the remastered edition. There for it is a full game in it own right.

[Oblivion26]

In my opinion the only way that Curated Workshops would work for games like Skyrim or Fallout, or really any game with mods that are more complex than hats and skins, is that the mods are sold collectively.

 

What I mean by this is rather than buy each mod for around 5 bucks, you would pay a flat amount (like 15-20 dollars) in order to get access to all of the mods approved by Bethesda. Those mods that are not approved or do not want to be paid can be downloaded for free. I would think this way it would clear up any competition or complications/lawsuits over mods (as everyone is getting money regardless of what mods are actually downloaded) and modders can still have a sort of hobbyist attitude about what they love doing without the worry of money ruining things (Mostly, obviously some people will start making mods for the money then the simple pleasure of modding, but when money gets involved in anything those people tend to appear).

Edited March 24, 2015 by Oblivion26

[weltall]

Money make the world go round. No matter how you see it, if someone works even for a hobby on something and suddenly from that hobby he can make money, the hobby becomes sweeter. This exact feeling I am getting after reading this post, I get from the Minecraft community too. I feels like something "negative" is stirring and slowly being awaken.

 

Bad mood always is there like you said, since different people have different personalities and some are just competitive. I do though believe that someone that did not really care strongly before for fame or endorsements or whatnot, will still not care much. They will mod for their fun, maybe or maybe not charge something and then leave the mod behind in the hands of someone else, with the only request for their mod to never become a reason for people to make money. I guess I believe a lot in humans, but I know that even if money is something as important as health and love, (because without money you can indeed lose both of these, as I have seen while growing up) some people still manage to not be controlled by that power.

 

There will always be the more and less famous mods out there and when the better mod will become too expensive people will go for the less expensive one, skipping the "better" one. But I see this as normal and to be honest even if it comes to life, it will only remind me of how The Sims, seeing how modding was so successful, created their own market with "extra" items. But even with that store people kept making new items and releasing them in sites that ask nothing for these items but people to make an account and maybe vote and comment, almost like Nexus.

 

Sadly English is not my first language and I am not the smartest person around, but if your worry is whether Bethesda will make it so free mods are illegal or not, I say you must not be the only one worrying over such a decision. If they will take such a step it will move them too along with the rest of the world. Suddenly the DLCs appeared and they moved the world and I have to accept many people go for them, buying a game for a "full" price and then spend again and again money for sometimes a really good and large content to at times mere features that normally should be part of a patch or the game. It shocks me how people receive such updates and they are called "free" dlc when they should be called patches with a bonus content.

 

Was the DLC a good step for the gaming industry to take? I bet the game creators are making more, probably, money than they would normally get. I do though at times sit with friends and we make fun of such games, even the more popular ones. We say how you could pay in the past a single time for a game and fully enjoy it, where now it has become virtually impossible to do that.

 

But enough of that, returning back to the subject, like I said, if they will move the world to that direction they will have to follow it too. I can easily see Fallout 4 or TES 6 getting released with such restrictions as you fear, and people will simply be like; Let's go back to Fallout NV or TES 5. They had free mods and the final result was so much more better than when the new ones can reach.

 

A community with no free mods first and foremost means that people will have higher expectation for Bethesda. I still remember when I bought the game when it came out, swimming in bugs and game breaking glitches and being glad when I managed to finish the game and sidequests with my save being intact. Skip the rest of this paragraph if you do not want to read my experiences with vanilla game and how USKP I will never ever forget how the unofficial Skyrim patch that was one of the first mods I added not only made the game playable, but let me finish the darn questline for Hjerim, the house in Windhelm. I consider that questline one of the most bugged ones, but I remember visiting Markrath and there was that mage looking imperial guard out of one of the houses and my friend was like omggggg talk to hiiiim. I ignored him for the simple reason that I have been through all major cities and spoke to everyone... on my first gameplay. How could I know that talking to that guy would lead to actually getting a daedric weapon? He has never appeared before there but I did not think someone this important would never appear in the game. Adding the unofficial patch was like I unlocked a very different Skyrim, which actually was true since now quests worked and things I have not seen before appeared.

 

If they will release the game and enforce prices on mods, will there be free community patches? Will the community while fixing problems be as enthusiastic knowing others get paid for such things? Will people be happy with Bethesda still accepting their free help but them asking for money? Games nowadays get released with endless bugs and the people that pay full price for a working game either have to wait for a LONG time for bugs to get fixed and at times games either send reports via the net or ask for people to go to support and give them crash logs. For better or worse the buyer is the game tester giving feedback to the company. It becomes a job when you try to play, but bugs, glitches and crashes make you feel like you are actually doing a chore. A game that does not entertain you is work, which is how I feel with MMOs after I play for a while grinding and repeating the same thing and it tires me not making me feel happy.

 

I can't imagine or predict what they will do, but if they will release their next games with such a mindset, I feel and believe they will be harming their own selves as well. Then again according to the money charts and percentages.. yeah I hope it will work for them, because if they do it I will stop caring. Sure if the game turns out good I will wait for them to release all expansions and DLC and when a supersale is announced I will get the game, play it once and then throw it in a drawer and play Morrowing, Oblivion, Skyrim and Fallout 3 and NV.

 

Well time will tell, like it does for everything. At worst I see them enforcing that on Skyrim too and people either using the already owned mods they have to play once more or getting newer ones from illegal sites so they can play a last time. Either way at least I believe that if enjoying the game as we have up to today becomes illegal, it will be the last time playing for many people, or people will actually play illegally and get over with it.

[seden]

Strange, was pretty sure to have posted by now, still, as search return no result as to "crow", sound like over 200+ post (over 100 individuality, probably a lot more), no one informed / thinking to crow funding as a both possible & currently getting forward (may be, but, quite a possility so far, read below).

So, 2015 1/3 quite done :

Pillar of Eternity (26.03.2015)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity
Limit Theory (06.15 > @suivre)
Torment Tides of Numerama (2015 ?)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera
Sui Generis (!Q3 2015 ?)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473965863/sui-generis
Kingdom Come: Deliverance (12.2015 ?)
Insomnia (!12.2015?)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1892480689/insomnia-an-rpg-set-in-a-brutal-dieselpunk-univers
Graywalker : Purgatory (01.2016) graywalkers.com
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamlordsdigital/graywalkers-purgatory-turn-based-post-apocalyptic
Age of Decadence (2015 ?) http://www.irontowerstudio.com
Underworld Ascendant (11.2016) http://www.othersideentertainment.com/
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/othersidegames/underworld-ascendant
Windwalkers, the game (12.2016) http://www.forge-animation.com/
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/forgeanimation/windwalkers-the-game
Icy (TBS @2016 ?)
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/icy-a-post-apocalyptic-rpg
Seven Dragon Saga (TBS @2016-17) http://www.tsi-games.com/seven-dragon-saga-tsi-games/
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/537511454/seven-dragon-saga-by-tactical-simulations-interact

Most of which are in production for most than a year, with some (not listed here), funded and in production since 2013-.

Pas si simple.

So, just now we (community) have two paths :
- Classical, and until some years, the only one, credits from non gamer, send along limitation & instruction (read order/rules),
Programmers, who as to RPG, have quite often if not always have RPG (be it table or PC) background, cannot do as they want, albeit some case (Planescape Torment & Baldurs Gate come to mind).

- Second way = "independence", be it from crow-funding, or otherwise (so far, otherwise = ? Still, could happen I guess).

In that way, time & others conditions are quite open, even what P Mollineux said some days ago (Crow-funding, what a pain, never do it from start of production !, quite some games are so far been started very early, if not previous to any devellopments (out of code & renders).

Which said, the options are open, knowing that we have over 10 studios (group of peoples) who chosen so far that second track, with over 70+ individual devellopers getting money aswell..

So, if future over TES/Bethesda = pay for mods = bye.

These days, with the Total war (what a way to go, limit the number of troops, why, if economy can support ??), then, Dragon Age, since inquisition = console games, ported with the less care to PC, bringing (ho, Skyrim to, see the vanilla interface) limitations on the way.

Two days for Pillars of eternity, then, some more months for the next one, in any case, with openMW coming, Oblivion & Skyrim being (community) supported (so far) with tools & mods, hm.µ

To be seen.

[3AMt]

And that will be the end of modding as we all know and love(d) it. The game industrie and essentially STEAM has archieved a lot during the last years to take away the fun from gaming. This will just be the last nail in the coffin, at least for me.

 

Future of gaming. User generates content -> The very same user pays for content. User has 100% of the work. The criminals behind steam and the game industrie take 100% of the profit -> User ends with nothing. 15% eh, f**k of. The web is already full of ripped mods. And steams now officialy the control freak of gaming. Theres no way to get any legal and uncensored copy of dying light in my country for example. Steam also introduced geo lock, and even the people with US keys are screwed & censored now. I simply won't play the game than, and its not the only one. Thanks steam.

 

Back to topic, I would NEVER sell any bit of my mods, and I would never, ever pay for any mod. I see mods as something like freeware, open source. Modding isn't about to get paid and it should not become like this. If you wan't to get paid, heck get a job! And Im someone who has spent thousends of hours with skyrim modding. I've spent more time with the Ck than with the game itself...

 

But yeah before developing any mods under such a system I rather develop something on my own. Cryengine, U4, etc. all becoming more interesting now. In some wiered way that might can be seen as semi good. Modding will become less interesting and it will make more sense to develop indigames instead.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2015 by 3AMt

[Brandon3739]

Nexus could work with Users to promote well made mods. Why not simply begin your own market? Bethesda pretty much depends on its modders for its replayability value. Skyrim didnt look or feel as immerisve as Oblivion. Its lacking in its production. Morrowind was unreal. Oblivion was acceptable. Skyrim? UNPB.

 

Modders could make decent money. all over the world Modders could support the Nexus and do what they prefer on a global market. Not just 12 year olds play skyrim, or use CBBE BBP with Immersive Weapons.

 

Bethesda could only try to tap into the market. But, its the modders who earned their money with their invested time. Bethesda was smart to enable a modding community. Smart enough to know their games would be negligent without that promise. Theres no Whodunit in Skyrim, just an arrow to the knee. Modders make the overhauls Bethesda simply couldnt include.

 

Putting a price tag on mods is as excessive as A Towering Pile Of Hats, or limited edition summer shades and Bill's Hats. Simply allowing partnerships or kickstart options could be a significant shift in modding quality and maintenance. I have seen donation options, and that's great too. Power to the individual. Content for the community.

 

Bethesda should be paying the modders and the nexus, if they aren't already. Without the Nexus, Skyrim would have died with oblivion. Morrowind would have been the last RPG that Bethesda ever made, the latter would amount to nothing more than modern an appeal to sensibility, like the doritos and mountain dew papacy. No thanks. Demand better content. If not, thats what DnD and Stone Soup will do, and exceed. I'd pitch 5 bucks for a team to begin work on a decent story driven experience in skyrim like Rigmor of Bruma. "Mhmm!"

 

I miss morrowind, and skyrim simply doesnt compare to the depth morrowind had. Thats where the modders come in. Its only logical for everyone to support them. Its only greed and cowardice or lack on initiative to do so. Mo' money mo' problems.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Brandon3739