Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[MisterGibson]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

[Reymas]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755649, #24755674, #24755734, #24755859, #24756679, #24756804, #24757029, #24757049, #24757199, #24757929, #24758809, #24759289, #24759754, #24760424, #24760524, #24760554 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

njits wrote: So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed miserably though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.

Barihawk wrote: While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Might I add that it is personal choice whether you upload files.

Azradun wrote: @njits

It's bad that Chesko got death threats. It's also bad that he tried to sell something based on other's work in a community that's built on sharing.

And he clearly knew what he was doing, but thought "oh, what the hell, maybe I can get away with it".

mljh11 wrote: @njits:
"A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

You're making a blanket statement that is just untrue. Modders as a whole DON'T have every right to compensation. Yes, other artists in different fields have such rights under the law. But modders generally don't.

So your blanket statement is either ignorant or just disingenuous.

I don't know whether you truly understand where rights come from. Just because you think you've done work doesn't mean you suddenly accrue the rights to ask for compensation for it.

frostsmith wrote: Valve took the mods off. If it was making a ton of money, wouldn't you think that they would've kept it going? It seems to me that calling your users entitled babies is a bad idea, as now they won't buy your mods even if they accepted it.

Fowldragon wrote: You really have a critical thinking issue.Everyone involved was protesting the idea of the Way this went down Most of those protesting were/are fine with a donation system that is more prominent...Very few people are so tied to getting a 'FREE LUNCH" that they feel they should be entitled to it ad infinitum...SO, charging the entire community as you have done may not necessarily mean that you are an absolute IDIOT, you may simply have a LEARNING DISABILITY.

njits wrote: @mljh11

"A) Modders have every right to ASK for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

ASK, ASK, ASK.

My original post was targeted towards the vitriolic and insane behavior of some very shitty people on here against modders asking for compensation for their work. SURE, they don't have legally and technically that right. But neither do Let's Players. It is a legally muddy place.

But they have the right to ASK as much as anyone else for it and NOT be bombarded by a bunch of insane maniacs with "FREEDOM!!!" badges.

njits wrote: @Fowldragon

Have you read any of the comments on here, on the Steam Workshop or Reddit? There is some GamerGate level circle jerk going on with people screaming "WE WON!!!" There was *most definitely* a large group of people wanting payed mods to go away simply because they don't want change or to pay for their mods. And they had to absolutely make sure that every modder with the IDEA of monetizing their work was the biggest betrayal they could do towards Skyrim modding. Saying that people only protested against the *way* in which Valve offered payed mods (which was really flawed) is simply not true. READING COMPREHENSION.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think maybe the sentiment from many was that they just were amazed that Bethesda was actually listening to the communites doubts on how the (badly) implemented system was exploititive and unregulated. I don't think they would have just taken it down because some kids were screaming death threats at people.

There have been some very thorough and comprehensive discussions on all aspects of this over the weekend, all of which Valve and Bethesda (and some of the media) were watching and analysing.

drmmrdude22 wrote: Modders don't have any legal right to claim they should get compensated for their work. I think this point has been raised quite a few times, but to reiterate: they are using Bethesda's IP - w/o Bethesda's say so no mod author would be legally allowed to charge for their mods. This is ENTIRELY different than say, a musician, or an artist, or some other creative type. The scenario mentioned about painting something and selling it on the street is entirely different than a modder creating something and trying to sell it - the painter OWNS THE PAINTING BECAUSE ITS THEIR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. They, therefore, have a right to sell it. If someone isn't willing to pay for it then they don't get it.

Honestly, maybe its just the goggles of nostalgia but the Nexus and modding Bethesda's games were so much better back in the days of Morrowind and Oblivion. Usually communities become better when diversity is brought in but there are so many viewpoints now (some of which are completely against what the Nexus was originally created for) have made this community become quite toxic. 10 years ago (and still to this day) I would never charge or even accept donations for a mod. And its entirely against what this community was founded on to do so.

MrGrymReaper wrote: There's also the fact of the EULA, GPL, Creative Commons and/ or other licensing terms for software used when making the modification (Maya 3D, Poser as well as other software). As those resources as well may not allow the content produced to be sold for monetary gain.

This is also dependent on the edition of the software used by the modder in the first place (Free, Lite, Standard, Pro, Premium, Ultimate etc). In addition the target audience of the license terms and the software edition.

The reason being the software's developer may or may not allow the content produced using the software to be sold for monetary gain. In addition they may or may not allow the monetary gain sale distribution to be for a large number of people.

In addition in the case of Creative Commons License an author of piece of content or software can restrict commercial sale of said work. They may even have a clause preventing commercial sale of content produced using said piece of software (added after fact in a custom document).

Failure to abide by said restrictions could lead to an appearance it court potentially for the modder and/or those involved with its distribution. As well as large bill for the royalties generated from the sale of said content dependent on content or software licensing terms.

Fowldragon wrote: @njits
I didn't omit those who are of that mind, you ignored my point. NEXUS shouldn't be ashamed... Nexus is not a GROUP-THINK..it is comprised of a broad range of opinion and position...not to mention levels of Maturity. Lumping everyone into the same mindset is the failure of critical thought I was addressing.

zelatoth wrote: I think if a modder want payment for they work, they can get as donations... Besides that, you can't work as a modder, but needs to become professional and work for some dev team, like Bathesda and help them to make another game...

Tanesis12 wrote: I agree that calling people greedy for believing that they deserve, and to be honest probably do actually deserve, moneys for mods is wrong. Though it is also wrong for to say that people who pay full price for a retail game, and expect all content for that game to be free, greedy is also wrong.

Monetisation could work for modding but implimentation was always going to be difficult. I feel Bethesda and Valve dropped the ball. Badly implimentated and badly marketed. The reaction was always going to be painful

seversky wrote: Skyrim modding up until now has been purely a labor of love. Obviously! Because there was never any other option. Think about this. The ability for modders to get paid for their work was unprecedented in Elder Scrolls games. This puts huge limits on the content that we can realistically expect to see created by any individual or group of modders. As it is now, every modder who manages to produce a great mod inevitably must abandon it because the growth of the mod cannot be sustained. (Let me head you off here: don't even try to bring up your examples of great mods that continue to grow even greater. Your examples are rare exceptions, and the modders behind them are sacrificing more than you know.)

This was an unprecedented opportunity for that to change. I would love to see a bunch of micro-studios emerge to enhance Skyrim beyond what we've seen so far. The demand is there. Even if Valve/Bethesda's attempt at paid modding was a failure, they at least proved that there are a lot of people out there willing to pay for quality mods. It's a real shame that this opportunity has vanished.

It depends on the mod community.

Models and textures for Second Life, sure, people make a living from that. It has always been that way. Team Fortress 2 Hats, yeah. Planetside 2 Skins/Models, yep. Sims 2/3 mods, uh-huh. The difference is, those communities have always been like that. TES modding has not.

TES modding has been a free hobbyists medium for 10+ years now. That can't just be uprooted over night without consequence, especially without warning. This isn't a job, it's a hobby. No one in their right mind would enter into TES modding with the intention of making it their "living."

Instead of doing some backdoor NDA thing with only a few modders of their choosing, they should have been transparent and up front about this from the very get-go. They may not have been so quickly shouted down.

Also, we can't REALLY talk about the "artists making money" when they only get 25% and only see a payout when they net $100 which I doubt any of those mods did in the four days they were up.

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755649, #24755674, #24755734, #24755859, #24756679, #24756804, #24757029, #24757049, #24757199, #24757929, #24758809, #24759289, #24759754, #24760424, #24760524, #24760554, #24760899 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

njits wrote: So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed miserably though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.

Barihawk wrote: While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Might I add that it is personal choice whether you upload files.

Azradun wrote: @njits

It's bad that Chesko got death threats. It's also bad that he tried to sell something based on other's work in a community that's built on sharing.

And he clearly knew what he was doing, but thought "oh, what the hell, maybe I can get away with it".

mljh11 wrote: @njits:
"A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

You're making a blanket statement that is just untrue. Modders as a whole DON'T have every right to compensation. Yes, other artists in different fields have such rights under the law. But modders generally don't.

So your blanket statement is either ignorant or just disingenuous.

I don't know whether you truly understand where rights come from. Just because you think you've done work doesn't mean you suddenly accrue the rights to ask for compensation for it.

frostsmith wrote: Valve took the mods off. If it was making a ton of money, wouldn't you think that they would've kept it going? It seems to me that calling your users entitled babies is a bad idea, as now they won't buy your mods even if they accepted it.

Fowldragon wrote: You really have a critical thinking issue.Everyone involved was protesting the idea of the Way this went down Most of those protesting were/are fine with a donation system that is more prominent...Very few people are so tied to getting a 'FREE LUNCH" that they feel they should be entitled to it ad infinitum...SO, charging the entire community as you have done may not necessarily mean that you are an absolute IDIOT, you may simply have a LEARNING DISABILITY.

njits wrote: @mljh11

"A) Modders have every right to ASK for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

ASK, ASK, ASK.

My original post was targeted towards the vitriolic and insane behavior of some very shitty people on here against modders asking for compensation for their work. SURE, they don't have legally and technically that right. But neither do Let's Players. It is a legally muddy place.

But they have the right to ASK as much as anyone else for it and NOT be bombarded by a bunch of insane maniacs with "FREEDOM!!!" badges.

njits wrote: @Fowldragon

Have you read any of the comments on here, on the Steam Workshop or Reddit? There is some GamerGate level circle jerk going on with people screaming "WE WON!!!" There was *most definitely* a large group of people wanting payed mods to go away simply because they don't want change or to pay for their mods. And they had to absolutely make sure that every modder with the IDEA of monetizing their work was the biggest betrayal they could do towards Skyrim modding. Saying that people only protested against the *way* in which Valve offered payed mods (which was really flawed) is simply not true. READING COMPREHENSION.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think maybe the sentiment from many was that they just were amazed that Bethesda was actually listening to the communites doubts on how the (badly) implemented system was exploititive and unregulated. I don't think they would have just taken it down because some kids were screaming death threats at people.

There have been some very thorough and comprehensive discussions on all aspects of this over the weekend, all of which Valve and Bethesda (and some of the media) were watching and analysing.

drmmrdude22 wrote: Modders don't have any legal right to claim they should get compensated for their work. I think this point has been raised quite a few times, but to reiterate: they are using Bethesda's IP - w/o Bethesda's say so no mod author would be legally allowed to charge for their mods. This is ENTIRELY different than say, a musician, or an artist, or some other creative type. The scenario mentioned about painting something and selling it on the street is entirely different than a modder creating something and trying to sell it - the painter OWNS THE PAINTING BECAUSE ITS THEIR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. They, therefore, have a right to sell it. If someone isn't willing to pay for it then they don't get it.

Honestly, maybe its just the goggles of nostalgia but the Nexus and modding Bethesda's games were so much better back in the days of Morrowind and Oblivion. Usually communities become better when diversity is brought in but there are so many viewpoints now (some of which are completely against what the Nexus was originally created for) have made this community become quite toxic. 10 years ago (and still to this day) I would never charge or even accept donations for a mod. And its entirely against what this community was founded on to do so.

MrGrymReaper wrote: There's also the fact of the EULA, GPL, Creative Commons and/ or other licensing terms for software used when making the modification (Maya 3D, Poser as well as other software). As those resources as well may not allow the content produced to be sold for monetary gain.

This is also dependent on the edition of the software used by the modder in the first place (Free, Lite, Standard, Pro, Premium, Ultimate etc). In addition the target audience of the license terms and the software edition.

The reason being the software's developer may or may not allow the content produced using the software to be sold for monetary gain. In addition they may or may not allow the monetary gain sale distribution to be for a large number of people.

In addition in the case of Creative Commons License an author of piece of content or software can restrict commercial sale of said work. They may even have a clause preventing commercial sale of content produced using said piece of software (added after fact in a custom document).

Failure to abide by said restrictions could lead to an appearance it court potentially for the modder and/or those involved with its distribution. As well as large bill for the royalties generated from the sale of said content dependent on content or software licensing terms.

Fowldragon wrote: @njits
I didn't omit those who are of that mind, you ignored my point. NEXUS shouldn't be ashamed... Nexus is not a GROUP-THINK..it is comprised of a broad range of opinion and position...not to mention levels of Maturity. Lumping everyone into the same mindset is the failure of critical thought I was addressing.

zelatoth wrote: I think if a modder want payment for they work, they can get as donations... Besides that, you can't work as a modder, but needs to become professional and work for some dev team, like Bathesda and help them to make another game...

Tanesis12 wrote: I agree that calling people greedy for believing that they deserve, and to be honest probably do actually deserve, moneys for mods is wrong. Though it is also wrong for to say that people who pay full price for a retail game, and expect all content for that game to be free, greedy is also wrong.

Monetisation could work for modding but implimentation was always going to be difficult. I feel Bethesda and Valve dropped the ball. Badly implimentated and badly marketed. The reaction was always going to be painful

seversky wrote: Skyrim modding up until now has been purely a labor of love. Obviously! Because there was never any other option. Think about this. The ability for modders to get paid for their work was unprecedented in Elder Scrolls games. This puts huge limits on the content that we can realistically expect to see created by any individual or group of modders. As it is now, every modder who manages to produce a great mod inevitably must abandon it because the growth of the mod cannot be sustained. (Let me head you off here: don't even try to bring up your examples of great mods that continue to grow even greater. Your examples are rare exceptions, and the modders behind them are sacrificing more than you know.)

This was an unprecedented opportunity for that to change. I would love to see a bunch of micro-studios emerge to enhance Skyrim beyond what we've seen so far. The demand is there. Even if Valve/Bethesda's attempt at paid modding was a failure, they at least proved that there are a lot of people out there willing to pay for quality mods. It's a real shame that this opportunity has vanished.

Reymas wrote: It depends on the mod community.

Models and textures for Second Life, sure, people make a living from that. It has always been that way. Team Fortress 2 Hats, yeah. Planetside 2 Skins/Models, yep. Sims 2/3 mods, uh-huh. The difference is, those communities have always been like that. TES modding has not.

TES modding has been a free hobbyists medium for 10+ years now. That can't just be uprooted over night without consequence, especially without warning. This isn't a job, it's a hobby. No one in their right mind would enter into TES modding with the intention of making it their "living."

Instead of doing some backdoor NDA thing with only a few modders of their choosing, they should have been transparent and up front about this from the very get-go. They may not have been so quickly shouted down.

Also, we can't REALLY talk about the "artists making money" when they only get 25% and only see a payout when they net $100 which I doubt any of those mods did in the four days they were up.

Just curious, how many mod makers BOUGHT The Creation Kit from Bethesda, and also Bought and/or donated to the creators of NIFSKOPE, GIMP, BLENDER while expecting to be paid for your mods?

[phoenixmass]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554, #24747774, #24747799, #24747909, #24748204, #24748329, #24748344, #24748534, #24748849, #24749024, #24749029, #24749224, #24749279, #24749419, #24750314, #24751879, #24752384, #24752494, #24752744, #24753274, #24753624, #24753979, #24754244, #24754444, #24754479, #24754484, #24754654, #24755899 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

pantera160 wrote: Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

Unilythe wrote: I can't understand how someone could not agree with what FavoredSoul wrote here. The internet is a vile place, even on the Nexus sometimes. I've seen my fair share of hateful, entitled, demanding nonsense thrown at mod authors here on the Nexus. Clearly that happens. I'm not sure how you could disagree with that - it's a fact.

As for mods being paid - I think most people were against the way Valve and Bethesda handled it, and also against the fact that already existing mods became paid. If there were only new mods on there, Valve and Bethesda had communicated this entire thing better, and the cut to the mod author was higher, I don't think there would have been an outrage like this.
Now there are people who legitimately complained about mod authors "selling out". Screw those people. If mod authors want to get paid for some of their mods, sure. It's worked for other games. People put in a lot of work in a mod sometimes, so if they want to get paid 50 freaking cents or maybe even a dollar for it then why the hell not?

CptnBrryCrnch wrote: You are so right Favored. My initial reactions were concern about intellectual property sharing but I did not give enough consideration to mod authors getting recompense for their good work.

Nobody was forcing me to buy a sword, but certain mods are definitely worth money to me.

I hope the reintroduce the option for paid mods in the future. You can count on me buying good stuff.

lilkyser wrote: Oh for god sake's people complaining about paying for mods are not force to buy the friggin mods, don't like it? then don't buy it simple as that, i don't understand this people at all

MacKom wrote: Let`s just...simplify.

Favored - whom did you make your mods for? Did you make them for yourself because you wanted something like that in your game and, once it was done, were satisfied? If so, all the trolls in the comments shouldn`t have bothered you at all. AT ALL. I had my dealings with people like that and I shrugged it off - I was happy with my mod. *I* enjoyed it because *I* made it for *MYSELF*. I uploaded it because I thought others might like it as well. Some did, some didn`t. And that`s totally fine with me. I took the CC, thanked those who were nice, helped out where help was needed and that`s it. Period.

If, however, you did your mod for some other reason (recognition, "fame", whatever) - that was a major flaw to begin with.

Sorry, buddy.
That being said, I do wish you all the best. Really. You`ve shown us some mad skills. Just remember to enjoy modding for yourself again.

Lillim3 wrote: So I just feel like this is hilarious with people hating modders, modders hating users when this was never about the modders.

This is about consumers being against additional costs in gaming. The games are expensive enough now that the DLC trend has become a norm.

We used to pay $40 for a fully finished product. Now we pay $60+ for half finished, bug ridden garbage that the devs expect us, the players to finish for them.

It isn't that I'm not willing to give you, a modder money for your work... If your work were a complete product in and of it's own.

I'm not going to spend another f*#@ing dime on Skyrim if that money reaches Bethesda's hand. They haven't earned it - And if we give it to them it'll be the same in the next title. And what will we the consumer get for it? Nothing.

Bethesda isn't going to do anything more as a dev than they were going to before.

The modders arn't going to produce anything they wouldn't have anyway.

This is a situation where Bethesda rakes in more cash - Most of the modders get nothing, a select few might profit and the consumers get bent over backwards.


You're right, I'm not willing to spend another dime on a nearly $100 f*#@ing video game. If you are, I think you have enough financial stability to not be worried about an extra $100~200 a month anyways.

Seren4XX wrote: I've seen a few people agree with you FavoredSoul, and the one think that caught my attention is all the guesstimates (guessed estimates) at how big the bad users vs the good ones are. I've even seen someone say "2% of the users is nice!". Ridiculous, I say.

Unless anyone can come up with cold hard facts about how many toxic users there are vs nice ones, all this talk about how bad the community is in its entirety is all based on personal experience.

In my honest opinion, FavoredSoul, I feel like you've yet to learn that you don't have to care about what anybody says and asks/demands.
Yes, it took me some time to learn too with the necessary blood sweat and tears, albeit not under pressure of rude people. I learned that as soon as something that has to do with modding makes me uncomfortable I just stop. I stop, take a breath, go do something else for as long as I need. I mean this in reference to public modding, for me I sometimes just go back to modding just for myself if I don't want to deal with public modding stuff anymore.

That has saved me a lot of head aches.

As for user experience as a mod author... I can say with pure honesty that my experience with Nexus users has been absolutely phenomenal. From people commenting on the mod page to people PMing me.
People have always been very polite and understanding. Sometimes when I read a big request in my inbox I sighed and wondered if this person realized what an undertaking it would be to fulfill that request. Then I realized I can simply tell them and be done with it, and people have always been very patient and understanding.

I don't know what you've had to endure, FavoredSoul, but as far as personal experiences go I can say with certainty that not every mod author has had to endure the same things as you have, nor have the same experience with users.

My experience with Nexus users has been quite positive. I refuse to join the bandwagon blindly and let all the negativity pile up.

It's been scientifically proven that we, at least in the Western civilization, have a tendency to remember negativity a lot better than positivity (Read the Negativity Bias paragraph on this page). Also, strongly-opinionated people will always have a louder voice on the internet.
Do you see where I'm going with this?

Somebody who can't deal with negativity and pressure from others yet, simply isn't gonna last in "the spotlights".

I'd like to invite you and others reading this to go to FavoredSoul's Ultimate Assortment mod page and check out the first three pages of comments. There's a lot of positivity in there. I've seen people with a question first take the time to show their appreciation before continuing. That's saying something.

My take on paid mods? I'd rather not have them. If you really want to know why I'll go drag my opinion about it from my tumblr, but for now I'd like to leave it at this.

Phychosis wrote: Don't know what hate you could of ever got your work is amazing your in my top 3 fav modders of all time along with Chesko, and Grace Darkling.

999-jay-999 wrote: I can but express that I among many always appreciate every mod I use in my games. I whole heartily endorse every mod I can to highlight the modders generosity for sharing there creation.

I know I speak for hundreds that we will continue to support and further encourage creativity and positive pleasure where mods and mod authors are concerned.

diyeath wrote: Its your choice to be outraged. Yes, some people are silly and the internet brings out this personality issue with certain people. However we all have choices in how we react to outside stimulus so to that end I reject your notion.

You can either be the bigger person or you can sink down to the vocal minorities level. It seems that you self admittedly sink down to their level.

Be the better person.

durge13 wrote: I've already pulled my mods from Nexus, had pulled mine from Steam Workshop years ago but this just made me realize how poorly modders are treated in general in the Skyrim community. I can't afford to spend time modding anymore and this would have allowed me to spend more time than ever on it. It's good in a way to see that another author I actually have a lot of respect for and one that I have always used mods from, feel the same way about the situation. In another way it's awful seeing it too, as nobody should have to feel that way about a community that constantly says it's 'in the spirit of modding'.

Modders are taken for granted, I hope you don't remove your mods but or stop making them but then on the other hand it might show these bullies that they deserve nothing if they give nothing in return.

Someone on Steam actually had a good idea that modders could have a group on Steam which only modders can join and only modders who submit something to the workshop could see others mods. Making it so you have to at least contribute.

riverreveal wrote: I dont think anyone is against mod creators getting money for good mods. Everyone was against the system Valve and Beth introduced.

I respect all modders who could have deleted all their free files straight away and charged for them, without thinking whether the system that had been introduced was beneficial long-term for the community. They are the modders I hope do get rewarded some time in the future when Valve and Beth come back with a system that hopefully was created alongside the community.

Brendan62 wrote: FROM FavoredSoul a section of his/her comment

"OH, ITS "FOR THE LOVE OF MODDING" YOU SAY?
Rubbish. That love and passion for modding? That gets dashed on the rocks the moment you receive your first troll, your first abusive comment, your first person who throws a tantrum cause you don't want to fulfill the request that they're asking of you. Does anyone even remember the time when the nexus sites had a DIS-ENDORSE button? I cannot begin to relate just how many times my mods got dis-endorsed simply cause I didn't fulfill the requests people were demanding. Unless you are a real modder, you will NEVER understand what that's like. Your wear your heart on your sleeve when you make and release mods, cause you DO pour your heart, soul and energy into them. In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it."

MY RESPONSE

As a modder Im very anti paying for mods due to the far reaching consequences
but at the same time this is a valid point ,

these days its just way to much drama to release mods, rude and abusive comments, people who refuse to read read mes and descriptions then complain it doesnt work. There is a very negative vibe shown to modders on all levels. Mod consumers need to realize that whether you like, approve or whatever of a mod someone spent a great deal of time making it then uploading it for people to enjoy. If your not one of them or dont like the mod whatever keep quiet leave the negative comment alone. May great old time modders have left due to this
sort of negativity

So if nothing else take all this as a lesson in how you should be treating the modder , not as if said modder should be honored you actually downloaded his\her mod. But treat the modders who upload stuff for people enjoyment with the respect they deserve.Especially those who stayed on the side of free mods by adding support on mod pages etc

Maena wrote: Are you refering to the comments on the Steam workshop and on the userprofiles on Steam?

Looking at your own mods here on the nexus, there are page after page of really positive comments. I've only had a quick glance and not gone back to the very first post on each of them, but I didn't see a single hateful or troll post like you describe, so I'm just wondering where you're coming from with your post.

That being said, I'd like to thank you, FavoredSoul, for the remarkably good swords you've released here on the nexus, free and for everybody to use. Seeing the quality of them, I think it's sad that you stopped modding 6 months ago. I for one would love to see more of them, even if I haven't actually downloaded any of them yet. That's simply because I didn't know they existed.

shadowwolfz wrote: You're justified, I give you that. That is all I will give you though.

"Over the 5 or so years i've modded Bethesda games at these nexus sites, i've come to realise that a portion of the community are selfish, entitled, and often outright abusive to mod authors (not everybody of course, but a portion) with their requests, demands and complaints, and many times i've pulled mods, or have logged off feeling absolutely outraged at the way I and my mods had been treated. How many of you can honestly say you've read, or been reading even a fraction of the things people have been saying over on steam? You know that one particular guy who ported the 3 DOTA swords for sale on the workshop? Have you seen his steam profile comments? The kinds of things that had been written... that sheer overwhelming hate, the pure evil. Its just disgusting. Point in hand, a mere taste of the popular opinion of the mod-user.."

The popular opinion of the mod-user. This is like saying the burnings of the stores in Ferguson were indicative of everyone who agreed with that movement. It isn't. Sorry to burst your bubble. That is a blanket statement brought on by emotion and nothing based on a rational thought. By the way, about the 3 DOTA swords guy? Nobody has to like the mods, you open yourself up to even more sharp reviews when people have money involved.

The problem is relatively simple. People vilify those who only come back to work for profit because it leads to bad practice. There are fewer good modders who would do this vs an infinite amount of scammers, 10 minute modders, and outright thieves of content. The reputation of the paid mods put up suffer as a whole in the same way EA and Greenlight on Steam do. You know what they say about bad apples. This cant really be prevented under the sloppy system Valve put up.

Also there is another problem existing with this. Mods are dangerous to the game itself. Purchasing one is with the knowledge that it can break another product you spent far more money on and do more damage that cant be corrected with a simple refund. There is also the issue of poor quality control implemented by Steam as seen by the numerous reviews of paid mods already existing. To say the community doesnt deserve a hand in deciding what should and shouldnt be paid for is wrong in my opinion given the risks. I feel it would have been better if more support and/or an application system for the paid mods would have been better in this instance.

"In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it." - That is every community ever on the face of the earth. You think paying for mods will make this go away? Im sorry, but the statement is really invalid considering you have been here for a long time and only 3 days ago had this option. Nobody ever made you do it. No one ever made you continue to mod for the community over one or more games. This isn't the same as there being a contract between you and the consumer. There had to have been some positive in it for this to happen.

Also I dont want to be spending my money on content without the reassurance that it has passed some kind of quality check and wont completely mess up. I know mods can conflict with other mods, but the refund policy Steam implemented was woefully inadequate and contributed to the problem. 7 day ban for refunds? That is simply insane. And 24 hours to test only? Another insanity. People don't play when it comes to their money. This has set up a system where the consumer takes a HUGE risk and hurts modding as a whole. Just telling it how it is.

My overall thought is had this been done correctly and implemented in a rational way, you would find more open to the idea than you think. Right now, it gives the consumer a huge amount of risk and does indirectly harm the community. People have every right to be angry. Also cut/copy/pasting the business model from their existing packages and assuming it would work in a radically different game is really sloppy business practice in my opinion. Valve/Bethesda shouldnt be let off the hook for that.

Some of the things I point out should help reassure you that most of this isnt directed to modders personally and stems from things wrong with the system and falsely attributed to modders indirectly. I still firmly believe conditions might improve some if they fix these problems. However, I still think coming back to Skyrim is not the way to go on this.

Long but I've really wanted to get it off my chest since reading it.

HadToRegister wrote: I like how one side is accusing mod users of just being "Entitled brats" who complained on Steam until paid modding was taken down.

I'm both a mod user and maker (not very good ones), but what people are missing in this thread, is that the BIGGEST uproar about paid mods was that the modders got 25% while the remaining 75% of the "earnings" was being UNFAIRLY given to Bethesda and Steam.

It's nice to know that a lot of us who stuck up for modders and their unfair cut are now seen as "Entitled brats"

I hit the endorse and usually make sure to also leave a comment saying how great the Mod is and that I also endorsed it, (usually with a all caps "ENDORSED!" )

(I suppose the profile police will look go around and look at my profile to count how many times I have and Haven't endorsed a mod so I can be named "A good guy" or an "Entitled brat" )

I made a lot of texture replacer mods, and they got all kinds of ridicule and I even had one user that made sure to go around and vote down each of them and leave crappy comments, oh well.
They aren't fantastic, but they took me hours of time, that I could've spent doing something else, but I mainly did them for the heck of it, for fun, and to see if I could actually do it.

People need to lighten the hell up, seriously

All this debacle has shown is that there is equally crappy people on BOTH sides of the argument.

HadToRegister wrote: Threads like this make me think of the old Twilight Zone episode where Invaders from Mars get everybody to turn on one another, so we wipe ourselves out, instead of the Martians having to spend their energy and resources doing it.

People had torches and pitchforks out against The Nexus, Steam, Bethesda, Modders, Non-Modders, and it was a real disgusting display of human nature.

The_Funktasm wrote: As a mod maker myself, I have to say that you ought to get over yourself. Stop acting like an angsty teenager that feels they've been betrayed when in reality the community is inadequate for every mod author, always has been, and will continue to be.

It's not new. It's what you deal with as a modder, and I've known that for a good decade now. Just as nobody is entitled to make you work, you aren't entitled to be treated like a paid employee or good friend on the sole merit of your work.

The nexus is not, and has never been yours or any other person's personal showcase. That's what a blog is for.

SiniVII wrote: This is pathetic.

A huge wall of text, containing nothing but a one-sided argument without room for other sides of the story, and even if arguments are being made they are being hand-waved away with sarcasm and snide, not taken seriously.

You don't want a discussion, you want sympathy and people to agree with you. When I look at the comment section here on Nexus, your mods are all well received, not seeing much of what you're describing, which supports my claim that you're just fishing for sympathy.

Dude, I am sorry you feel like the punching-bag of the internet, but you really shouldn't use the Steam Workshop as your clap-o-meter. The applause you'll get from steam users is predictable to say the least... And when you set yourself up for it, you'll just have to deal with it.

WightMage wrote: Thread is too long, even compared to past ones, and most people have said what I would have by now, so let me simplify:

@FavoredSoul
1) As someone who has gone out of their way this weekend to defend people's right to be paid for their work if they so choose, and donated, I'm offended at being blanket included in the rabble of "entitled" kids you mention, thanks.

2) The first thing people in all art fields learn when they get into art is that they either do it because their passionate about it, or they quit immediately. Criticism is LEGION- and they will not be stopped. You can either learn to take what you want to improve yourself, and ignore the rest, including the vitriolic, or not.

3) It is unrealistic and entitled to expect the ground you stand on to be kissed just because you made something.

I say this as a writer, and as far as I'm concerned, the bullshit we receive from so much as putting pen on paper is a fraction of the hatred that you get and continue to get from making mods. So a dozen people are spamming posts about how you're a terrible person, complete with overused memes and broken english? Who cares?

Imagine spending YEARS on a work, sending ar least a dozen drafts to publishers, editors, and friends alike, getting next to no responses, and when you do, finding your work awash in red ink or attached to a letter that extolls the reasons your work isn't profitable. Imagine the self righteous idiots who accuse you of being racist/homophobic/gay agenda/devil worshipper/christian propagandist/anti science/fails at science just because you write characters and situatioms contrary to their established worldview.

This torrent cannot, and will not be stopped, and the sooner you learn to ignore what is useless to you and pick up what is, will you be ready for the mod/artist community.

Otherwise, it sounds like you aren't meant for this line of work. All you've managed to do is throw anyone who would have helped you out under the bus over something that's meant to be fun anyway.

nadasico wrote: You just said my main point FavoredSoul the trolls are EVERYWHERE. They were before this and will be after this. The entire world is their domain as it is anyone else's. An ******** will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Unless we somehow end up a docile race with no emotion of our own volition (Vulcans). Either that or the world ends and in that case I don't think anyone will be sweating what's going on with the internet all that much at that point.

Tarathiel_Torosir wrote: Yes Favored, how dare people ask you to make things. Truly we are an entitled species when we ask things of people, frankly I say we should nuke ourselves out of existence.

Draugas wrote: 54 pages of absolutely glowing reviews by people. I trip skipped through every other page from Aug9, 2013 to today and the only things not a positive review were bug reports, general requests for help on compatibility and requests for item (all politely posed) because they loved your work.

Over 8k endorsements, 144k + unique DL's.

I get the feeling people love your work and let you know... overwhelmingly.

rekkhan wrote: I want to say that, a modder should be paid for his work, but not like this.
Selling a mod at this time is wrong because it incomplete. The reason is there is no standard yet. A standard that people could base on to create their own mods. A standard that makes sure people won't ruin their game when using a mod. If you think people must pay for your mods, you also have the responsibility to guarantee that they are completely compatible with the mods people had paid. I tell you, such modder haven't exist yet.

nadasico wrote: @sunshinenbrick

No they are dealing with the massively dynamic world known as the human condition. It is not unique to any one community modding, twitter, facebook, youtube or your local PTA meeting.

WightMage wrote: Not much else to say but "lol"....

Nidhoegger wrote: You're overreacting and your assessment is grossly flawed.

People are correct to criticise Valve's distribution methode and payment plan in whatever manner they see fit. Content of criticism in this case matters less than volume.

The 25% payment plan is a horrendous rip-off and with the lack of content control, Valve had opened itself to the exact same case megaupload.com did a good while back. Browsing your own mods, I see that you have foreign IPs in there. If you were to charge for the Sword Of Truth, you would also be part of that investigation when it comes, and on the wrong end of it. Intellectual property laws are more than a can of worms, they are a bottomless pit of despair. Once money is in the picture, things can get horrendously ugly and disproportionate. Criticism of the modus operandi is thus more than valid.

IF you wish recompensation for modules, you have two sane avenues:

1) Donations. Be nice to your customers (once you want money, they are customers, and interactions fundamentally change; that is simply how it is) and don't be a prat, and especially deliver quality that many people like, and people will donate. Realise it will never be enough to finance your modding, unless you somehow make the next Star Citizen. Realise modding is still a hobby, and always will be, because you cannot garuantee yourself a proper income.

2) Talk to the IP holders of the software you wish to mod. Have a proper concept and enough work already done to prove it viable. Use the words "new DLC". If you present yourself well, you will be able to legally profit off this, and the slew of copywrite laws are avoided on the destributor's side by making it an official DLC.

In closing, the vitriol experienced in these past few days is only partly the byproduct of changing the relationship from peer-related and social to provider and consumer. Once you as a mod-maker are seen as a provider, people treat you differently. However, paid mods also attack established "traditions" and poison the well. The reaction and backlash to this is to be expected,and will scatter and hit more or less innocent bystanders as well, because once the mob is unleashed, anyone who gets called a witch gets burnt.

This does not make the "mob" or everyone who justifiably complained and went active against this a bad person or a troll. This does not mean they are suddenly against mod makers. But with the above post, FavouredSoul, you have certainly ensured that a fair share will be against -you-. A smarter choice would be not to speak out and, like our own Helmut Kohl for decades here, just sit it out.

Making mods is a lot fun, updating mods can be really dull and time consuming
Most authors will want to move on to their next mod idea/interest.
Why not pay a very small amount for an update that adds extra features
That way ensuring the modder keeps old mods up to date
I know i would for somthing like Frostfall (Chesko) also an update for the Creation Kit
Maybe an extra update donation button, dont know put about as much thought into it
As probably steam did, a balance in the force shall be found
The best fair solution will probably come from nexus over this year a user maybe
I also like free stuff does'nt everyone and would not pay for most mods
Including my own which are quite basic
but some are a bit special and i would support those mod makers
Being able to quit their jobs and mod full time.
No one would choose to mod or work in the game industry for the money
The dude that said no one asked you to make mods
No one asked Jimi Hendrix to pick up a guitar.
FavoredSoul, most Nexus users are fair minded
Hope you dont hide mods really like Ultimate Assortment.
phantompally76, can't you agree to disagree and State your reason try to see both sides.
It's easy to be in the in crowd go along with mob rules
Takes guts to stand apart, a bit of trust goes a long way.
More important things going on in the World there are.
Hav'nt experienced any Trolls on nexus but my lightsaber is Red
And turns all the way upto 11
I will eventually take over this World
(You have been warned)

[Allannaa]

Oh and the whole "only one percent mod" and "only eight percent use mods"?

 

Where in the name of Alduin's litterbox did they get that crap? Skyrim alone has sold over 10 million (legitimate) copies, with about 15% being PC version (in other words, 1,500,000 PC). So one percent of that would mean that only about 10,000 people world wide make mods? And only 80,000 people use mods?

 

I call nonsense. Loudly.

 

According to the Wikipedia article, over 20 million copies of Skyrim had been sold by 2013.

 

And as far as mods themselves?

"Todd Howard stated in an interview [...] that 'Skyrim did better than we’ve ever done on PC by a large, large number. And that’s where the mods are. That feeds the game for a long time.'"

 

So which is it? You embrace the modding community? You want to "support" the modding community by charging for our work, and keeping more than half of what you charge? Or you're a bunch of wet-bottomed liars who failed miserably with your onliner, and want to use us to keep your profit margin up?

 

Oh and -- THIS. This, a thousand times this.

 

MisterGibson

 

 

If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

 

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Allannaa

[MrGrymReaper]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755649, #24755674, #24755734, #24755859, #24756679, #24756804, #24757029, #24757049, #24757199, #24757929, #24758809, #24759289, #24759754, #24760424, #24760524, #24760554, #24760899, #24760939 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

njits wrote: So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed miserably though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.

Barihawk wrote: While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Might I add that it is personal choice whether you upload files.

Azradun wrote: @njits

It's bad that Chesko got death threats. It's also bad that he tried to sell something based on other's work in a community that's built on sharing.

And he clearly knew what he was doing, but thought "oh, what the hell, maybe I can get away with it".

mljh11 wrote: @njits:
"A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

You're making a blanket statement that is just untrue. Modders as a whole DON'T have every right to compensation. Yes, other artists in different fields have such rights under the law. But modders generally don't.

So your blanket statement is either ignorant or just disingenuous.

I don't know whether you truly understand where rights come from. Just because you think you've done work doesn't mean you suddenly accrue the rights to ask for compensation for it.

frostsmith wrote: Valve took the mods off. If it was making a ton of money, wouldn't you think that they would've kept it going? It seems to me that calling your users entitled babies is a bad idea, as now they won't buy your mods even if they accepted it.

Fowldragon wrote: You really have a critical thinking issue.Everyone involved was protesting the idea of the Way this went down Most of those protesting were/are fine with a donation system that is more prominent...Very few people are so tied to getting a 'FREE LUNCH" that they feel they should be entitled to it ad infinitum...SO, charging the entire community as you have done may not necessarily mean that you are an absolute IDIOT, you may simply have a LEARNING DISABILITY.

njits wrote: @mljh11

"A) Modders have every right to ASK for compensation for their work as any other artist does."

ASK, ASK, ASK.

My original post was targeted towards the vitriolic and insane behavior of some very shitty people on here against modders asking for compensation for their work. SURE, they don't have legally and technically that right. But neither do Let's Players. It is a legally muddy place.

But they have the right to ASK as much as anyone else for it and NOT be bombarded by a bunch of insane maniacs with "FREEDOM!!!" badges.

njits wrote: @Fowldragon

Have you read any of the comments on here, on the Steam Workshop or Reddit? There is some GamerGate level circle jerk going on with people screaming "WE WON!!!" There was *most definitely* a large group of people wanting payed mods to go away simply because they don't want change or to pay for their mods. And they had to absolutely make sure that every modder with the IDEA of monetizing their work was the biggest betrayal they could do towards Skyrim modding. Saying that people only protested against the *way* in which Valve offered payed mods (which was really flawed) is simply not true. READING COMPREHENSION.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think maybe the sentiment from many was that they just were amazed that Bethesda was actually listening to the communites doubts on how the (badly) implemented system was exploititive and unregulated. I don't think they would have just taken it down because some kids were screaming death threats at people.

There have been some very thorough and comprehensive discussions on all aspects of this over the weekend, all of which Valve and Bethesda (and some of the media) were watching and analysing.

drmmrdude22 wrote: Modders don't have any legal right to claim they should get compensated for their work. I think this point has been raised quite a few times, but to reiterate: they are using Bethesda's IP - w/o Bethesda's say so no mod author would be legally allowed to charge for their mods. This is ENTIRELY different than say, a musician, or an artist, or some other creative type. The scenario mentioned about painting something and selling it on the street is entirely different than a modder creating something and trying to sell it - the painter OWNS THE PAINTING BECAUSE ITS THEIR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. They, therefore, have a right to sell it. If someone isn't willing to pay for it then they don't get it.

Honestly, maybe its just the goggles of nostalgia but the Nexus and modding Bethesda's games were so much better back in the days of Morrowind and Oblivion. Usually communities become better when diversity is brought in but there are so many viewpoints now (some of which are completely against what the Nexus was originally created for) have made this community become quite toxic. 10 years ago (and still to this day) I would never charge or even accept donations for a mod. And its entirely against what this community was founded on to do so.

MrGrymReaper wrote: There's also the fact of the EULA, GPL, Creative Commons and/ or other licensing terms for software used when making the modification (Maya 3D, Poser as well as other software). As those resources as well may not allow the content produced to be sold for monetary gain.

This is also dependent on the edition of the software used by the modder in the first place (Free, Lite, Standard, Pro, Premium, Ultimate etc). In addition the target audience of the license terms and the software edition.

The reason being the software's developer may or may not allow the content produced using the software to be sold for monetary gain. In addition they may or may not allow the monetary gain sale distribution to be for a large number of people.

In addition in the case of Creative Commons License an author of piece of content or software can restrict commercial sale of said work. They may even have a clause preventing commercial sale of content produced using said piece of software (added after fact in a custom document).

Failure to abide by said restrictions could lead to an appearance it court potentially for the modder and/or those involved with its distribution. As well as large bill for the royalties generated from the sale of said content dependent on content or software licensing terms.

Fowldragon wrote: @njits
I didn't omit those who are of that mind, you ignored my point. NEXUS shouldn't be ashamed... Nexus is not a GROUP-THINK..it is comprised of a broad range of opinion and position...not to mention levels of Maturity. Lumping everyone into the same mindset is the failure of critical thought I was addressing.

zelatoth wrote: I think if a modder want payment for they work, they can get as donations... Besides that, you can't work as a modder, but needs to become professional and work for some dev team, like Bathesda and help them to make another game...

Tanesis12 wrote: I agree that calling people greedy for believing that they deserve, and to be honest probably do actually deserve, moneys for mods is wrong. Though it is also wrong for to say that people who pay full price for a retail game, and expect all content for that game to be free, greedy is also wrong.

Monetisation could work for modding but implimentation was always going to be difficult. I feel Bethesda and Valve dropped the ball. Badly implimentated and badly marketed. The reaction was always going to be painful

seversky wrote: Skyrim modding up until now has been purely a labor of love. Obviously! Because there was never any other option. Think about this. The ability for modders to get paid for their work was unprecedented in Elder Scrolls games. This puts huge limits on the content that we can realistically expect to see created by any individual or group of modders. As it is now, every modder who manages to produce a great mod inevitably must abandon it because the growth of the mod cannot be sustained. (Let me head you off here: don't even try to bring up your examples of great mods that continue to grow even greater. Your examples are rare exceptions, and the modders behind them are sacrificing more than you know.)

This was an unprecedented opportunity for that to change. I would love to see a bunch of micro-studios emerge to enhance Skyrim beyond what we've seen so far. The demand is there. Even if Valve/Bethesda's attempt at paid modding was a failure, they at least proved that there are a lot of people out there willing to pay for quality mods. It's a real shame that this opportunity has vanished.

Reymas wrote: It depends on the mod community.

Models and textures for Second Life, sure, people make a living from that. It has always been that way. Team Fortress 2 Hats, yeah. Planetside 2 Skins/Models, yep. Sims 2/3 mods, uh-huh. The difference is, those communities have always been like that. TES modding has not.

TES modding has been a free hobbyists medium for 10+ years now. That can't just be uprooted over night without consequence, especially without warning. This isn't a job, it's a hobby. No one in their right mind would enter into TES modding with the intention of making it their "living."

Instead of doing some backdoor NDA thing with only a few modders of their choosing, they should have been transparent and up front about this from the very get-go. They may not have been so quickly shouted down.

Also, we can't REALLY talk about the "artists making money" when they only get 25% and only see a payout when they net $100 which I doubt any of those mods did in the four days they were up.

HadToRegister wrote: Just curious, how many mod makers BOUGHT The Creation Kit from Bethesda, and also Bought and/or donated to the creators of NIFSKOPE, GIMP, BLENDER while expecting to be paid for your mods?

Not forgetting to donate to Audacity's team.

[Walruscopter]

They tried something, they kind of botched it, the gaming community crucified them and decided to assume the worst on every possible front. The usual one extreme or the other humanity.

 

I feel that Valve/Bethesda were negligent in their responsibilities with the scheme, which puts several negative marks beside their 2 million positive . The "community"/internet descended into a feral horde and mistook a broken steam community release for an attempt at World War 3. I even saw WW2 flags updated with Steam logos, guess which ones? The reaction of concern was justified, but maybe next time can we try to be a bit more civil? I know most were so but(as ever I guess) lots of it was waaaaaaaaaaay over the top.

 

We should be vigilant but we should also try to be rational, weigh things up, give them time to breathe? If we want to be taken seriously and maintain a relationship between ourselves and developers I think we need to work on that,. Even if we run into situations were "they" aren't civil, we should be.

This isn't a "victory", we just lost an option completely due to a fear of even looking at change and a misguided start. I'm not saying I liked what they did but the "victory" stuff is like thugs smashing up their neighborhood in "anger/protest" then crying victory when the police abandon it as a lost cause. Yeah, we communicated that we didn't like something, but we also managed to maintain the same old angry internet mob image. Go us.

[Gawainyeo]

Can we all just agree that paid mods were a good idea? If it was explained properly and had the 75% of revenue to the mod authors instead of the other way round, things would have golden.

[SydneyB]

Great to know, Dark0ne :) I hope they still publish your interview as it will be surely interesting :)

[Skyrabbit]

I love this community and have been very concerned by recent events, particularly the abuse dished out to mod makers. However these are very much '1st World Problems' !

 

I would encourage you to think about our wider community and donate to the Nepal Earthquake appeals. If you have not done so already and can afford to, please do.

 

Lets all be a bit more tolerant and forgiving and get a sense of proportion about things. :)

 

Particular thanks to Dark0ne and Gopher for being calm and rational.

 

( Moderators. I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of this forum. I have deliberately not included any links. )