Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

Wolvenlight · May 6, 2015

In response to post #25007544. #25007814, #25014694, #25016689, #25019509 are all replies on the same post.

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Such accusation, very evidence.

Wolvenlight · May 6, 2015

In response to post #25019004.

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Good questions. While I'm by no means an authority on this stuff, it got me thinking.

Considering the price of some of the mods on the paid workshop, I could see $5 being the price. Which is strange, I would have thought people would price their mods around $.50 to $2. Going from free to $5 with a mod that many other mods might rely on seems like a bad business move, if nothing else. (Though I can see why people might think the opposite.)

Yes, they'll be pirated. Though it would be difficult if Valve made the mods somehow Steam reliant. I could picture that not going over well... or even working properly. It probably wouldn't happen, and piracy would probably be rampant if the prices weren't cheap or affordable or fair.

Judging by the early access games having a reputation of abandoning their game once they make enough money, (not common but it happens,) I don't think there would be an obligation for modders to keep mods stable. Bethesda and Valve could certainly try to make this a requirement, but I doubt they'd do it, and I doubt it would stop some modders from dropping off the face of the internet.

Loveblanket · May 6, 2015

In response to post #24997179. #24997739, #25000969, #25001074, #25002429, #25002999, #25003089, #25006504, #25010279, #25012879, #25020594, #25021179 are all replies on the same post.

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janishewski wrote: Since some mod authors erase any comment they don't agree with I will state my argument for paid mods here. I am a chef and a restaurant owner. What does that have to do with this you ask? The analogy is that Valve would be my infrastructure. The things that allow my business to operate (utilities, the building housing my restaurant, parking, etc). Bethesda would be my food companies. They provide me with the resources and tools needed to produce my product. Then I, using these resources create and sell what I've produced. Anyone wanna guess what my average profit margin is after expenses. Yep, you guessed it, 25-30%. Around 30% is standard for the industry though obviously there are those that make more and those that make less. If someone told me I could make a guaranteed 25% profit for the rest of the time my business exists, I would take it in a heartbeat, and so would anyone else I've ever known in the industry. So lets stop pretending that it was the % that mod makers were getting that was the problem. Obviously those selling their mods and those that wanted to did not feel that way. Would a 35% been better, of course, but 25% was a perfectly acceptable place to start.
I work roughly 80-100 hours per week. If I were to let people come in and eat my food with nothing more than a "donation" option, how long do you think I would be motivated to continue to work and how long would a business like that last? The answer to both is "not one minute". If everyone that downloaded and endorsed a mod "donated" even 50 cents American to the modder, this would never be an issue. The truth that I have heard from modders is that, for some of the larger mods, it is less than 1% of endorsers that donate. So please stop with the donation nonsense. Hoping for donations does not pay the bills. What you rejected was the ability for talented people to build an entire industry around creating more content for great games. Nobody was forcing anything on anyone and free mods would still be all over the place as they were. What you took away was choice and as a result, the number, quality, and ambition of mods will take a hit and talented modders will move on to other projects or mod for games to do allow them compensation for their labor. This was a victory for nobody. It was also irrelevant as optional paid mods will return and they will return with Bethesda products. I guarantee that and I don't guarantee much. Anyway, I hope that this post offers a different way to look at the issue.

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bullpcp wrote: People were essentially opposed to other consenting adults voluntarily interacting n a manner that they didn't agree with.

25% is actually much higher as a percentage return than many creators are able to get in many industries. I know that for instance authors often only get 5% for their works and that if you make the financial comparison the return on assets is often only around 8%.

Of course the only relevant opinions on the matter of just compensation and cost are between those selling and those purchasing goods and services.

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retnav98 wrote: People talk about the costs to host mods as a reasonable justification for taking 75% of the profit... But they are/were taking None of the LIABILITY. As well, they are hosting Free mods of Arguably BETTER Quality and incurring the same cost and liability. Is there an industry where such a compensation dichotomy is present?

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Mr. Dave wrote: First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid.
Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything.
I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them.
Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally.
Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple.
Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies.

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I personally think 25% was terrible I probably wouldn't work for that low of a percentage. I just don't think I should have any say in what another human being considers reasonable or unreasonable. I'm unsure why you think them not being held liable is an issue. Whether they pay a percent or a set amount the distributor wouldn't be held liable regardless.

Person A: I got a job for 25,000/year doing the same thing I used to get 0/year.
Person B: They should pay you 100,000/year
Person A: No I'm good with the 25,000/year, thank you.
Person B: They shouldn't be allowed to pay you that little.
Person A: Please stop trying to help. I'm good with the 25,000/year.
Person B: No you should work for 100,000 or zero.
Person A: Please stop trying to help me. I'm really good with the 25,000/year.

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bullpcp wrote: "First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid."
For many this is exactly what they mentioned in their arguments so it may be irrelevant for you but several hundred posts would indicate others hold a different view on this.

"Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything."

If you are referring to things produced that have nothing to do with Skyrim or Bethesda obvious statements are obvious. If you are referring to mods, or anything else, that runs on Skyrim's engine, but created not using their creation kit. Then you are still using their IP. You do realize making something to run on another game engine... kinda uses their IP.

"I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them."

Uh... Yea. Did someone tell you that if you made something that had nothing to do with Skryim or Bethesda you couldn't distribute it? Yea that would be obviously wrong.

"Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally."

So if what you stated is correct than many mods that Bethesda already technically owned were being allowed to be sold for profit by people who did not own them. I don't know that anyone actually ever advocated for the allowing stolen IP to be sold.

"Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple."

The garbage mods that were being spammed up for sale were not selling and would not have sold. The mods that would have sold may have been different. Since it was never given a chance we will never know. You are arguing a hypothetical... we all are.

"Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies."

I don't agree that is was a victory. I wasn't involved in any conflict so I feel no need to cry. You mad bro... need a hug? Maybe you can eat my moms cookies... jealous? Don't choke on the Haterade.

You do realize I actually benefit from this outcome. I don't want to pay for mods. I just feel that I should be able to look beyond my own self interest and propose a solution that is fair even if it disadvantages me.

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retnav98 wrote: I agree...I don't have a right to tell people what compensation for THEIR efforts is fair. Does that mean that I should remain silent while I am aware that LIES and misinformation is being foisted?

The liability they incur is only the cost of a refund, which they did honor while simultaneously penalizing the USER. Does that response HELP Modders?. It would be reasonable to infer that this response was hurtful to modders; it kind of looks like Valve was NOT supporting the Modders at all. You gotta wonder what the end-game was...It might be they were not all on the same page at Bethesda and Valve.

What if they WERE all mindful of an endgame that was NOT what they publicly asserted...We're seeing that statistics cited were not credible...WHAT ELSE?

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
Please indicate where and how Bethesda and Valve related "LIES and misinformation". I'm honestly interested in the who, what, and were of such misinformation but have yet to read a credible citation.

How does a refund penalize the USER?
By "response" are you referring to the refund because yes a refund would help a mod user and no that would not be hurtful to modders. Bad mods get downloaded for free everyday if you give back the mod users right back were they started. Could mod users abuse the system... maybe but systems evolve... when given the chance. For instance Valve was going to limit refunds.

What statistics were they relating were not valid?

Hanlon's razor
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."~Robert A. Heinlein'

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retnav98 wrote: It has been explained ad infinitum that Valve and Bethesda were and are endowed with an Extensive knowledge base in All aspects of Gaming... Just like things that are too good to be true, Excuses/decisions that defy the understanding of the rest of the Industry (too implausible to be true) are ALSO usually untrue.

I have read posts that estimate PC sales as high as 8.8 million..These estimates come from a variety of sources, You seem to be saying that they ALL are in error and the numbers/percentages that were originally projected sales just two days after release and are identical to what was represented as up-to-date...is pure coincidence.. Maybe I'm missing your concession...

It has been reported and confirmed that people who returned games for refund, were banned for a week. The reason (supposedly) was that it is policy to restrict unconfirmed payments...and it was a countermeasure to potential CC theft ..Who steals their Mommy's CC then asks for a refund? Notice, they didn't delay the purchase for a week. They allowed the user to have the mod, the Ban was enforced when a refund was requested. The punitive result of this policy Hurts sales...if users are discouraged from refunding...the more likely result is the USER will no longer BUY MODS...

"How can you be so obtuse?"
Andy Dufresne

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I'm actually asking to cite specific examples with actual evidence to back up what you are saying. Instead you are repeatedly ASSERTING without a shred of evidence or data to back up your ASSERTIONS. I actually want to verify that what you are writing is correct to come to my own conclusions without relying upon some random people on the internet words for it. I want to come to the most logically conclusion based upon the most substantial evidence. If I am wrong I want to know exactly what and why.

How are you so comfortable simply accepting people's word for it? You seem incredibly at ease accepting what you want to be true without any evidence but don't even acknowledge dozens of citations directly contradicting your previous beliefs. You simply move onto the next assertion like nothing happened.

Please cite the source of the 8.8 million PC sales estimate. I have cited at least two complete sets of data for all three platform sales that indicate PC units sales are a minority. You assert that 8.8 million is sales is reasonable and that this number comes from a variety of sources than this should be really easy... cite one.

You keep ASSERTING that the percentage of sales on each platform were the same two days after release again... citation needed.

Were people have actually cited their sources they have often been misinterpreted or just plain wrong.

Please indicate were all of these reports are and how they were confirmed. Please indicate why Valves reasons are obviously wrong. I've had my account frozen several times in the last few years. I'm assuming the reasons they gave me were prima facie true but... maybe conspiracy... maybe reasons...

I have repeatedly pointed out how very poor the paid for mod execution was. You pointing out problems that occurred within 5 days of rolling out a new and untested product is hardly reason to believe it COULD not work. If what you write is correct about no one buying paid for mods then paid for mods would have naturally become irrelevant anyway.

Peace. :)

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retnav98 wrote: You have Dark0ne's own explanation of a timeline of events from his perspective, You have the Total biscuit interview...Discussing Impressions by people directly connected to those making the VALVE/Bethesda decisions and releases. Those aren't Random sources...nor are they "half-baked" opinions. They don't make the leap I have. Which may mean I am off-base...it may also be because they are in Business with these people and would be ending their career if they did.

Your need to see numbers and statistics is already satisfied and in front of you..Harbringe and Jason' have both sited variations that do not square with the 14%. You seem to have responded that if we are unable to accept the 14% the only thing one must assume is the improbable belief that STEAM is unaware of how many games were sold....which I say is not the ONLY conclusion one can or must consider.

If the 14% is in error or not up-to-date...then the percentage of people involved in modding is also incorrect. and we come back to the question repeatedly asked in the TB discussion...How could they get this so completely wrong and how are they so disconnected from the very Community they say they were trying to reward?

I never said modders don't have a right to make money...My very first post on this Forum boiled down to 2 points...People have seen this coming and we shouldn't be surprised at the move,we should be surprised at the manner it was done. My second point was that we should not judge people harshly for their decision to charge for their mods. I have not abandoned ANY position. Though I have come to publicly express regret for my choice to boycott.

I cited the practice to Ban users who requested refunds. You needed clarification as if I was the first to bring it up and had no grasp of cause and effect but you are perfectly willing to write it off as an anomaly attributed to the 1st 5 days of a launch (Growing Pains?). Evidently, I should simply ignore that this is a Company with more than a decade of experience in Sales.. 125 million active users and the source for 75% of ALL on-line PC Game sales.

I certainly seems that it is YOU who are abandoning and shifting.

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Wolvenlight wrote: Mr. Dave

The percentage cut was one of the most mentioned issues the community had with the whole paid mods thing. So it was the problem, but not for the reasons many would think, which was OPs point.

The modders who jumped on the pay bandwagon were a mix of people who either created unique assets or edited assets. Really, they had every right to edit game assets (as they were given that right by Bethesda, the creators of those assets.) Unless you're talking about modders taking assets from, say, immersive armors and putting them in their own mods, or creating their mod to be SKSE reliant and not giving proper credit and compensation. But that's a far cry from all of them.

I do agree that paid modding can divide a community with greed. It tends to stifle innovation when people are so concerned about competition that open resources and tutorials go away.

Really good insult, not much of an argument. Not worth responding to. And if you are so talented and require no help creating content, then what does this have to do with you anyway? As to who is using what, that is between the content creator and Bethesda and has nothing to do with you. If you don't like the paid content, then don't buy it and download a free alternative. Nothing in your argument counters anything I wrote.

Virulence · May 6, 2015

I am glad this didn't go through, I think any kind of framework that sees mods sold would need to be considered and very tentatively put into place. Even then, I struggle to see how it would working serious adverse effects to the process of mod creation.

I am both a modder and mod consumer, so I originate from both sides of the argument. The issue with having people pay for mods is the risk in destroying what makes modding so special: its freedom and the motivations behind modding itself. To apply a capitalist framework to it has SO many implications beyond the obvious:

All of a sudden mods will be competing with each other, some modders will be rip-off merchants, some will struggle to get their mod seen amongst the others in spite of it being great. Many of the smaller mods will be swallowed up, some modders will begin developing mods for money rather than for the enjoyment of it. As for mod consumers, they'll be less likely to "try out" new mods just sticking to the same tried and tested, less likely to experiment, less likely to contribute. What about modding mods? Good lord, that's a can of worms.

In many ways this just mirrors how games work. Smaller, indie games struggling for a voice amongst the tried and tested spam like CoD. And of course, because it's subject to capitalism!

Even worse though, we all know that many mods for the biggest "moddable" games are actually bug fix patches! We could've ended up paying for unofficial patches that the developers should've fixed themselves! AND the publisher would receive a large chunk of that cash!!! Talk about incentivizing a developer to not fully bug test and fix their games.

Ultimately, the rewards for modding should come from the DEVELOPERS of the game we're modding for. Offers of employment, internships, guidance etc. it was a genius yet insidious move by these large, well-funded companies because it cleaved a chasm between modders and gamers who had always been a single community.

And if it went to s#*! - as it did - everyone inevitably pointed their fingers at the gaming community for somehow ruining everything when it was the developers/publishers who should've been offering up the incentives to modders!

Edited May 6, 2015 by Virulence

CaladanAnduril · May 6, 2015

In response to post #24997179. #24997739, #25000969, #25001074, #25002429, #25002999, #25003089, #25006504, #25010279, #25012879, #25020594, #25021179, #25021829 are all replies on the same post.

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Quote
janishewski wrote: Since some mod authors erase any comment they don't agree with I will state my argument for paid mods here. I am a chef and a restaurant owner. What does that have to do with this you ask? The analogy is that Valve would be my infrastructure. The things that allow my business to operate (utilities, the building housing my restaurant, parking, etc). Bethesda would be my food companies. They provide me with the resources and tools needed to produce my product. Then I, using these resources create and sell what I've produced. Anyone wanna guess what my average profit margin is after expenses. Yep, you guessed it, 25-30%. Around 30% is standard for the industry though obviously there are those that make more and those that make less. If someone told me I could make a guaranteed 25% profit for the rest of the time my business exists, I would take it in a heartbeat, and so would anyone else I've ever known in the industry. So lets stop pretending that it was the % that mod makers were getting that was the problem. Obviously those selling their mods and those that wanted to did not feel that way. Would a 35% been better, of course, but 25% was a perfectly acceptable place to start.
I work roughly 80-100 hours per week. If I were to let people come in and eat my food with nothing more than a "donation" option, how long do you think I would be motivated to continue to work and how long would a business like that last? The answer to both is "not one minute". If everyone that downloaded and endorsed a mod "donated" even 50 cents American to the modder, this would never be an issue. The truth that I have heard from modders is that, for some of the larger mods, it is less than 1% of endorsers that donate. So please stop with the donation nonsense. Hoping for donations does not pay the bills. What you rejected was the ability for talented people to build an entire industry around creating more content for great games. Nobody was forcing anything on anyone and free mods would still be all over the place as they were. What you took away was choice and as a result, the number, quality, and ambition of mods will take a hit and talented modders will move on to other projects or mod for games to do allow them compensation for their labor. This was a victory for nobody. It was also irrelevant as optional paid mods will return and they will return with Bethesda products. I guarantee that and I don't guarantee much. Anyway, I hope that this post offers a different way to look at the issue.

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bullpcp wrote: People were essentially opposed to other consenting adults voluntarily interacting n a manner that they didn't agree with.

25% is actually much higher as a percentage return than many creators are able to get in many industries. I know that for instance authors often only get 5% for their works and that if you make the financial comparison the return on assets is often only around 8%.

Of course the only relevant opinions on the matter of just compensation and cost are between those selling and those purchasing goods and services.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: People talk about the costs to host mods as a reasonable justification for taking 75% of the profit... But they are/were taking None of the LIABILITY. As well, they are hosting Free mods of Arguably BETTER Quality and incurring the same cost and liability. Is there an industry where such a compensation dichotomy is present?

Quote
Mr. Dave wrote: First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid.
Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything.
I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them.
Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally.
Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple.
Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies.

Quote
bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I personally think 25% was terrible I probably wouldn't work for that low of a percentage. I just don't think I should have any say in what another human being considers reasonable or unreasonable. I'm unsure why you think them not being held liable is an issue. Whether they pay a percent or a set amount the distributor wouldn't be held liable regardless.

Person A: I got a job for 25,000/year doing the same thing I used to get 0/year.
Person B: They should pay you 100,000/year
Person A: No I'm good with the 25,000/year, thank you.
Person B: They shouldn't be allowed to pay you that little.
Person A: Please stop trying to help. I'm good with the 25,000/year.
Person B: No you should work for 100,000 or zero.
Person A: Please stop trying to help me. I'm really good with the 25,000/year.

Quote
bullpcp wrote: "First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid."
For many this is exactly what they mentioned in their arguments so it may be irrelevant for you but several hundred posts would indicate others hold a different view on this.

"Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything."

If you are referring to things produced that have nothing to do with Skyrim or Bethesda obvious statements are obvious. If you are referring to mods, or anything else, that runs on Skyrim's engine, but created not using their creation kit. Then you are still using their IP. You do realize making something to run on another game engine... kinda uses their IP.

"I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them."

Uh... Yea. Did someone tell you that if you made something that had nothing to do with Skryim or Bethesda you couldn't distribute it? Yea that would be obviously wrong.

"Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally."

So if what you stated is correct than many mods that Bethesda already technically owned were being allowed to be sold for profit by people who did not own them. I don't know that anyone actually ever advocated for the allowing stolen IP to be sold.

"Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple."

The garbage mods that were being spammed up for sale were not selling and would not have sold. The mods that would have sold may have been different. Since it was never given a chance we will never know. You are arguing a hypothetical... we all are.

"Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies."

I don't agree that is was a victory. I wasn't involved in any conflict so I feel no need to cry. You mad bro... need a hug? Maybe you can eat my moms cookies... jealous? Don't choke on the Haterade.

You do realize I actually benefit from this outcome. I don't want to pay for mods. I just feel that I should be able to look beyond my own self interest and propose a solution that is fair even if it disadvantages me.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: I agree...I don't have a right to tell people what compensation for THEIR efforts is fair. Does that mean that I should remain silent while I am aware that LIES and misinformation is being foisted?

The liability they incur is only the cost of a refund, which they did honor while simultaneously penalizing the USER. Does that response HELP Modders?. It would be reasonable to infer that this response was hurtful to modders; it kind of looks like Valve was NOT supporting the Modders at all. You gotta wonder what the end-game was...It might be they were not all on the same page at Bethesda and Valve.

What if they WERE all mindful of an endgame that was NOT what they publicly asserted...We're seeing that statistics cited were not credible...WHAT ELSE?

Quote
bullpcp wrote: retnav98
Please indicate where and how Bethesda and Valve related "LIES and misinformation". I'm honestly interested in the who, what, and were of such misinformation but have yet to read a credible citation.

How does a refund penalize the USER?
By "response" are you referring to the refund because yes a refund would help a mod user and no that would not be hurtful to modders. Bad mods get downloaded for free everyday if you give back the mod users right back were they started. Could mod users abuse the system... maybe but systems evolve... when given the chance. For instance Valve was going to limit refunds.

What statistics were they relating were not valid?

Hanlon's razor
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."~Robert A. Heinlein'

Quote
retnav98 wrote: It has been explained ad infinitum that Valve and Bethesda were and are endowed with an Extensive knowledge base in All aspects of Gaming... Just like things that are too good to be true, Excuses/decisions that defy the understanding of the rest of the Industry (too implausible to be true) are ALSO usually untrue.

I have read posts that estimate PC sales as high as 8.8 million..These estimates come from a variety of sources, You seem to be saying that they ALL are in error and the numbers/percentages that were originally projected sales just two days after release and are identical to what was represented as up-to-date...is pure coincidence.. Maybe I'm missing your concession...

It has been reported and confirmed that people who returned games for refund, were banned for a week. The reason (supposedly) was that it is policy to restrict unconfirmed payments...and it was a countermeasure to potential CC theft ..Who steals their Mommy's CC then asks for a refund? Notice, they didn't delay the purchase for a week. They allowed the user to have the mod, the Ban was enforced when a refund was requested. The punitive result of this policy Hurts sales...if users are discouraged from refunding...the more likely result is the USER will no longer BUY MODS...

"How can you be so obtuse?"
Andy Dufresne

Quote
bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I'm actually asking to cite specific examples with actual evidence to back up what you are saying. Instead you are repeatedly ASSERTING without a shred of evidence or data to back up your ASSERTIONS. I actually want to verify that what you are writing is correct to come to my own conclusions without relying upon some random people on the internet words for it. I want to come to the most logically conclusion based upon the most substantial evidence. If I am wrong I want to know exactly what and why.

How are you so comfortable simply accepting people's word for it? You seem incredibly at ease accepting what you want to be true without any evidence but don't even acknowledge dozens of citations directly contradicting your previous beliefs. You simply move onto the next assertion like nothing happened.

Please cite the source of the 8.8 million PC sales estimate. I have cited at least two complete sets of data for all three platform sales that indicate PC units sales are a minority. You assert that 8.8 million is sales is reasonable and that this number comes from a variety of sources than this should be really easy... cite one.

You keep ASSERTING that the percentage of sales on each platform were the same two days after release again... citation needed.

Were people have actually cited their sources they have often been misinterpreted or just plain wrong.

Please indicate were all of these reports are and how they were confirmed. Please indicate why Valves reasons are obviously wrong. I've had my account frozen several times in the last few years. I'm assuming the reasons they gave me were prima facie true but... maybe conspiracy... maybe reasons...

I have repeatedly pointed out how very poor the paid for mod execution was. You pointing out problems that occurred within 5 days of rolling out a new and untested product is hardly reason to believe it COULD not work. If what you write is correct about no one buying paid for mods then paid for mods would have naturally become irrelevant anyway.

Peace. :)

Quote
retnav98 wrote: You have Dark0ne's own explanation of a timeline of events from his perspective, You have the Total biscuit interview...Discussing Impressions by people directly connected to those making the VALVE/Bethesda decisions and releases. Those aren't Random sources...nor are they "half-baked" opinions. They don't make the leap I have. Which may mean I am off-base...it may also be because they are in Business with these people and would be ending their career if they did.

Your need to see numbers and statistics is already satisfied and in front of you..Harbringe and Jason' have both sited variations that do not square with the 14%. You seem to have responded that if we are unable to accept the 14% the only thing one must assume is the improbable belief that STEAM is unaware of how many games were sold....which I say is not the ONLY conclusion one can or must consider.

If the 14% is in error or not up-to-date...then the percentage of people involved in modding is also incorrect. and we come back to the question repeatedly asked in the TB discussion...How could they get this so completely wrong and how are they so disconnected from the very Community they say they were trying to reward?

I never said modders don't have a right to make money...My very first post on this Forum boiled down to 2 points...People have seen this coming and we shouldn't be surprised at the move,we should be surprised at the manner it was done. My second point was that we should not judge people harshly for their decision to charge for their mods. I have not abandoned ANY position. Though I have come to publicly express regret for my choice to boycott.

I cited the practice to Ban users who requested refunds. You needed clarification as if I was the first to bring it up and had no grasp of cause and effect but you are perfectly willing to write it off as an anomaly attributed to the 1st 5 days of a launch (Growing Pains?). Evidently, I should simply ignore that this is a Company with more than a decade of experience in Sales.. 125 million active users and the source for 75% of ALL on-line PC Game sales.

I certainly seems that it is YOU who are abandoning and shifting.

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Wolvenlight wrote: Mr. Dave

The percentage cut was one of the most mentioned issues the community had with the whole paid mods thing. So it was the problem, but not for the reasons many would think, which was OPs point.

The modders who jumped on the pay bandwagon were a mix of people who either created unique assets or edited assets. Really, they had every right to edit game assets (as they were given that right by Bethesda, the creators of those assets.) Unless you're talking about modders taking assets from, say, immersive armors and putting them in their own mods, or creating their mod to be SKSE reliant and not giving proper credit and compensation. But that's a far cry from all of them.

I do agree that paid modding can divide a community with greed. It tends to stifle innovation when people are so concerned about competition that open resources and tutorials go away.

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janishewski wrote: Really good insult, not much of an argument. Not worth responding to. And if you are so talented and require no help creating content, then what does this have to do with you anyway? As to who is using what, that is between the content creator and Bethesda and has nothing to do with you. If you don't like the paid content, then don't buy it and download a free alternative. Nothing in your argument counters anything I wrote.

Don't try to reason with them Jani, here ANY different opinion is covered under a smoke screen of words, because ALL of them try to elude the true issue:

- if you don't like it, don't buy it, period, nobody is forcing you, any other discussion is pure hypocrisy

Pay attention to the names, same names show up over and over again, the spearhead of a intolerant minority. Edited May 6, 2015 by CaladanAnduril

retnav98 · May 6, 2015

In response to post #25014199.

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Harbringe wrote:

On 5/6/2015 at 8:21 AM, bullpcp said:

My point wasn't to take the highest PC number and say that is conclusive , just to say that no matter how I have been looking at the numbers , from whatever source I'm using the numbers dont add up . Which in your last post you came up with numbers that were saying basically the same thing (and actually I think your percentages are probably closer 25% - 33% would be my quesstimate from what I'm seeing) . No matter how you slice this were still left with a claim of 14% for PC sales given 2 days after release and a claim of 23,270,000 total sales given in June of 2013 and you have to do alot of squishing and scrunching to make those numbers work to account for anything after June 2013 .

Heres something that would be interesting to do . Start a poll on the Nexus and frame it something like this.

In what platform have you bought Skyrim and when (If more than one please indicate)

Console (Xbox/Playstation) year 1 year 2 year 3 year 4 (not limited to Skyrim , can include 1 or some or all expansions)

PC year 1 year 2 year3 year4 (same as above)

Legendary Edition

Console year 1 year 2

PC year 1 year 2

Now I understand this is not going to let us know what total sales are and I do understand this will be skewed to PC sales as this is a PC site but if we start to see a pattern of PC sales coming later or people waiting for the Legendary Edition it would tell us what the trend is for the PC market and could explain why the numbers don't add up , because they are simply not tallying them for public consumption . Only the taxman is someone who can say give me your total numbers for tax purposes.

At the very least I would think modders would be very interested in knowing what the trend is.

Also I dont know if the above years are even correct (if not would have to be fine tuned) but still the better informed modders are , the better decision they can make as to what to do or should do.

When it is stated in dec of '11 that over 10 million copies have been sold and then in their most recent 2015 totals of over 23 million units sold accross all platforms.are they ONLY referring to games that come from Brick and Mortar stores ...and only those games that users put into a bag and walk out the store with?

Let's consider that Bethesda sold Valve the right to market Skyrim. so that Valve could modulate the price as they saw/see fit...Is the number of copies of Skyrim that are part of the STEAM CLOUD separate?

What I'm thinking is the 14% not changing even a fraction of a percent from year to year, could be based on UNITS PRODUCED for each platform, that means it is not only statistically plausible...its completely understandable/logical that the number would not include games that don't specifically fall under the three headings.

If the numbers don't take Cloud games into account, it explains the statistical disagreement AND it points to a motive. The One BoogaBoo here is DRMification...and it seems to be important for Industry leaders to be able to say we are against it.

Edited May 6, 2015 by retnav98

Ariranha · May 6, 2015

Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Ariranha

MrBadboi · May 7, 2015

In response to post #25025599.

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Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

weas2010 · May 7, 2015

Much respect

Ghatto · May 7, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149 is also a reply to the same post.

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Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

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MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

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