Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.

Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :P

[Pevey]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294, #24889464 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :P

@freedom613 I wasn't implying that it was flamebait. o.o The intention was to pop popcorn to watch the other threads turn on fire, but I suppose I should have explained better, sorry.

[DCWillis]

In response to post #24887504.

Farvahar wrote: I donated recently through the donate button and it was a real hassle (much like renewing my subscription). Would I want to do that for each and every mod author I want to support (could be hundreds).

No.

Also, I don't like being limited to buying them a subscription to the Nexus, which is a minimum of a couple dollars. Some mods deserve a dollar or 2 (the core game can be had for 5). Most mods deserve a few cents (multiplied by hundreds of thousands of users).

This is the ideal system:

1) A wallet system, like Steam has
2) The ability to set the amount you want to donate in cash to the nearest cent
3) the ability to donate to multiple mods at once: a "donate all" button or some such
It would have been nice for the players in this (Valve, Bethesda, and Nexus, and a couple of prominent free modder types) to sit down together and hash out a suitable system that allows people to receive donations in lieu of formal payment.

The system we have now is not acceptable and "drawing a line under it" invites further turmoil.

This should be simple. Add an area where the Creator can link a paypal donate button on the mod page.

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat Edited May 2, 2015 by Tyerial12

[WightMage]

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949 are all replies on the same post.

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :P

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :)

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then.

@np11

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24887504. #24889644 is also a reply to the same post.

Farvahar wrote: I donated recently through the donate button and it was a real hassle (much like renewing my subscription). Would I want to do that for each and every mod author I want to support (could be hundreds).

No.

Also, I don't like being limited to buying them a subscription to the Nexus, which is a minimum of a couple dollars. Some mods deserve a dollar or 2 (the core game can be had for 5). Most mods deserve a few cents (multiplied by hundreds of thousands of users).

This is the ideal system:

1) A wallet system, like Steam has
2) The ability to set the amount you want to donate in cash to the nearest cent
3) the ability to donate to multiple mods at once: a "donate all" button or some such
It would have been nice for the players in this (Valve, Bethesda, and Nexus, and a couple of prominent free modder types) to sit down together and hash out a suitable system that allows people to receive donations in lieu of formal payment.

The system we have now is not acceptable and "drawing a line under it" invites further turmoil.

DCWillis wrote: This should be simple. Add an area where the Creator can link a paypal donate button on the mod page.

@DC
There already is? Unless you are referring to Workshop.

[Deleted3507349User]

http://media.giphy.com/media/iR2aXyVHI0AV2/giphy.gif

[Pevey]

In response to post #24871504. #24871889, #24872029, #24872299, #24872914, #24873159, #24873254, #24873374, #24873424, #24873614, #24873674, #24873684, #24875884, #24876184, #24876264, #24877939, #24878114, #24878249 are all replies on the same post.

darkslayer666 wrote: Dark0ne:

Forgive my ignorance on this topic but; Why doesn't Nexus help the modders more?

As it stands endorsements don't really do anything, other than boost ego. I'd like some Nexus revenue to go to modders... 1000 endorsements for $100?

I don't know, like I said, how much does Nexus generate income, but with it's size I'd wager quite a lot since there's a big traffic here. I mean you got the dough for managers but not for your $$$ generators? Priorities man.

Perhaps increase ad's on Nexus to support modders? People will also be more inclined to endorse.

I personally think Nexus doesn't take care of their modders much at all, and I don't agree with some of your choices. I know Nexus is a business and it's survival is your priority but no modders = no Nexus.

Relying on donations solely while taking 100% of revenue is not going to last forever as you've seen from Steam. And you also asked the modders to put nexus as a provider(which is about 5% of revenue) I mean... I bet they scratched their heads asking when did Nexus give them 5%.

I can write more, but as I've said, I'm not much knowledgeable on this subject and would like the communities help on this. I feel like Nexus isn't much better in my eyes.

If my post is offensive so be it.. good bye, but I feel like too many people aren't questioning this as well.

blackasm wrote: Very well put, as it stands the nexus gets money you could say directly from the effort of modders, as well as you tube mod reviewers, bethesda really only gets hype/publicity through modders. Typically mod authors that generate revenue from their own site would lose out being part of the nexus. I have said it a number of times earlier, but it is a classic case of talented people undervaluing themselves.

groupthinker1984 wrote: We aren't questioning it because we know the service being provided here. Free hosting of a vast repository of mods for a growing number of games alongside a free client/mod manager that is regularly updated.

You don't have to pay to host and you don't have to pay to download. The people who are paying do so to support nexusmods, not the modders. If we want our money to go to the modders, we will donate to them.

Please don't speak for us when you aren't even one of us.

Hevymettle wrote: You seem pretty opinionated despite announcing yourself that you had much ignorance on the topic. First and foremost I think it is important that you know that Valve offered this site 5% of their profit if Nexus was listed by the modder as being an aid to them. It was 100% voluntary of of the modder and initiated by Valve, so blaming this site or Dark0ne makes no sense at all.

Second, this site was founded on being a hub for modders to do what they like and to have it reach out to an audience. No one was forced to do it and they were even supplied with a program that makes it infinitely easier for people to mod their games. Attacking him as "not caring" about modders or taking advantage of them for not paying is pretty ludicrous. He is paying out the butt just to run this site. Have you even looked at the figures it takes to keep this thing going?

Your initial idea was pretty good but it sounds better when you leave out every possible thing that he would have to take into consideration. How easily would the system be abused? (people would find a way to get fake endorsements in the first week, I guarantee it). What happens if the modders start making too much money and the site is losing money offering it to them? Everything here runs the way it was created for and the people that utilize the site have done so for a reason.

It isn't a bad idea but you shouldn't over simplify it and then attack someone when you have questionable knowledge on the topic at best. That is especially distasteful when you are responding to a post that he is making about making changes to help modders make money.

macintroll wrote: I was asking on the other topic, why a system like youtube could not be added to the nexus ?.
Like here ads pay the bills. That's why we have a free service.

On youtube you can subscribe to adsense, then showing ads within your videos. Clicks and views giving back some money to each youtubber.

Simply adding ads on the mod page, which earnings goes to the modder, can be a way to give some retribution to some good mods with high pages view stats. (9M pages view for SkyUI)

Of course with this system only good high rated mods will generate some money
but neither nexus or any end user have to pay a cent to the "content provider".

Lamproly wrote: If I understand you right, macintroll, I don't think a system like that would leave grateful users. The ads in videos are - again - a huge turn-off and I only don't notice them because of adblock. And that's the reason why I turn off adblock on the nexus site, because the ads there aren't distracting or annoying me as much and I can still browse the site freely.

thefinn wrote: I think you guys are completely over-guessing what the nexus makes out of running this whole system.

As far as the 5% being paid to nexus, for all we know some completely overpaid high-priced lawyer realised there was some kind of infringement possibility in this and paying the nexus SOMETHING could alleviate that, but who knows?

Perhaps they really wanted to give something back to the community - although my cynical self just kind of laughs at that idea.

macintroll wrote: Quote "I think you guys are completely over-guessing what the nexus makes out of running this whole system."
Only servers costs for Nexus are $500.000 / year as stated Dark0ne some time ago.
Where do you think the money to pay this comes from ?

darkslayer666 wrote: @Hevymettle

Likewise my friend. You seem like you know the statistics of Nexus's income I take it?

I am not attacking Nexus, I am critiquing on the way Nexus is handling the situation. I am proposing ways on how we can keep modders from leaving, even at the expense of users by increasing ads for instance. I never said any of my ideas are soundproof. That is why I asked for communities opinion, and not be barraged.

Perhaps I should of with-held my opinion on how I feel, but it's true, Nexus doesn't support the modders one bit as far as my knowledge goes, and giving them tools is like saying a cab-driver should buy his own cab because hey... You say Nexus is trying to help but how? Certainly not out of Nexus's pockets, which I think it should since they bring in the income in the first place.

And on the point of "free-hub".. oh please, it's like saying non-profit organizations aren't profiting. Once again, I care less who's profiting, I am simply raising awareness that if Nexus can waste money on one thing but not the other is a little weird to me.

But once again, feel free to pick anything apart I'm an open book :).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why doesn't Nexus do more to help mod authors? Dark0ne has been hosting this site for many years. He's spent countless hours on it, and a countless amount of his own money on something that is basically a labor of love. The amount of traffic this site handles is no small feat, and no small amount of money. Dark0ne has given this resource to mod authors for free to host their files, and you want him to do even more? smh

macintroll wrote: @Lamproly
Well i just see this as a way to keep free mods, and modders here. Ads make the internet free currently, anywhere, everywhere else without ads, you pay to access the contents (or to remove the ads)

Paid modding is coming what ever you think now, Valve&Bethesda missed the point starting with Skyrim but for sure the next games without an existing user base currently will have paid mods (FO4?)
It's a trend and more games companies find this as a new good way to make money.

Everyone should also read this by moddb :
http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-mods

LP1 wrote: I think this is a fair point and something that Robin is probably already thinking about. The fact is that for many years several people have actually been able to monetize modding. Youtubers, the Nexus... The only people who have been forbidden from making money off of modding were the mod authors themselves. A model like youtube with ad revenue sharing would be interesting. Any attempt at a model would be interesting. The Nexus does provide a wonderful service, and Robin runs it about as well as could be expected. It's an extremely challenging job. But the Nexus is most decidedly NOT a non-profit entity. I think that is why Robin has been as balanced as he has been in all of this. I think he truly believes in the spirit of open source. On the other hand, he is a big TES fan who has managed to turn his love of mods into a livelihood. Do modders not have the same right to try to do that? It is a complicated situation.

thefinn wrote: I take your point, but I cannot see any real feasible way for the Nexus to put a "share driven" kind of dollar amount on mods, can you ?

Like I understand the modder is the one person not getting paid in this system, but I don't see a way to change that. By the same logic, should Gopher be giving kickbacks to modders for the money he makes off Youtube?

I just don't see how that'd work.

sunshinenbrick wrote: You cannot pay for mods, you can only pay for modding. No money for modding can go through Nexus. This is the short version.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: What Sunshine said. Not to mention the Nexus is run at a loss. It's a labor of love, and all that "ad revenue" goes toward the upkeep and running of the site, and it still doesn't cover it all. Nobody is secretly getting rich off of the work of mod authors.

WightMage wrote: ...which frankly, was the largest (and most BS) conspiracy theory to wreck through the Nexus community over the past week.

@Hevymettle pretty much stated anything I had to contribute to this thread. The Dark0ne does contribute greatly to modders, whether it seems overt or not, and frankly there are few things more aggravating than being accused of not "doing enough."

treota wrote: The existence of this website IS directly supporting modders is it not?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why I will fight for its survival.

As far as I know, no one ever said the Nexus is run at a loss. Where are you getting that? The Nexus has released some cost figures, but not revenue. It almost certainly makes a tidy profit.

And I think the site-runners should be able to profit from the site. Maintaining it is a lot of work. But why not mod authors, too? That door has been opened now, and it's never going to be completely shut again.

[DCWillis]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294, #24889464, #24889519 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :P

WightMage wrote: @freedom613 I wasn't implying that it was flamebait. o.o The intention was to pop popcorn to watch the other threads turn on fire, but I suppose I should have explained better, sorry.

I have been a hardcore Skyrim fan and have logged 1500+ hrs over the years. Haven't played the game in a week. I bought Far Cry 3 through Origin, not Steam and have been playing it. Stopped working on my mods as well. I just stopped in to see if anything new had happened.

Every time I tried to turn the game on it was different somehow, tainted so to speak. Like a girlfriend that slept with your buddy. You want to forgive but don't know how. lol