Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Ynguatep]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks". Edited September 11, 2015 by Ynguatep

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28594279.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

 

In response to post #28563909.

vram1974 wrote: "The Nexus has a lot of users who "skirt the rules" already, sitting in a grey area where they know it's a bit naughty, but it's not going to get them into any trouble."

I'm curious for clarification about this bit.

I know quite a few Nexus modders who are using their Nexus mod as a "showcase" for their free mod and then hosting their paid mods elsewhere with additional content for a price. I know because I paid for a few (the mods are good).

I noticed Nexus has shut down one of these authors, but Nexus didn't state why.

So what's the policy if a modder has a Nexus mod for free and then a paywall mod elsewhere?

I would imagine that this is bad, not just from a Nexus perspective. People doing this are risking getting shut down by Bethesda directly.

Not sure who specifically you're saying does this, but it's not something I've seen happening.

 

Look closer. Many mod authors skirt the ToS for this site, which I believe is what is being said here...soliciting for endorsements; flag and tag for adult content, tagging in general; trying hard to point out a site that is blacklisted...yeah, that site; using assets without explicit permissions (mods that point to the wrong original content mod); even given tools to pretty much moderate their own file threads, they tend to instigate rather than mitigate.

 

Sorry, not trying to instigate :whistling: just making observations. :)

While that may be true, what I was responding to seemed to be focusing pretty clearly on modders who skirt the ToS by linking out to a site that heavily promotes taking donations and/or flat out charging for the work. THIS is what I was commenting that I hadn't seen here yet.

[JimboUK]

In response to post #28569234. #28583494, #28587354, #28592309, #28592709 are all replies on the same post.

thelastzombie79 wrote: I remember when people could purchase a complete video game for one price, then we got partial games and have to buy the DLC for the full game. Paid modding looks like a wonderful opportunity to purchase a poorly made base game and then I would have to continue to purchase even smaller pieces at a time to get a full video game. If this becomes a reality I will no longer play or purchase video games and I hope that others will follow.

armadillo179 wrote: This was indeed one of my biggest concerns regarding the paid modding scene; would companies like Bethe care less about releasing sloppy broken games in the knowledge that the disgruntled PC audience will fix it for them.
Lets face it, PC games have shown a depressingly consistent history of receiving shoddy slapdash ports only to later be fixed or brought up to a decent standard by modders- not the dev's.

badkrma wrote: Agree, it was about fun years back to tweak the game, now money is the driving force for some...

As far as I'm concerned if people want to mod for money then create your own website and best of luck to you, I wish you no ill, but modding is about fun. If you work so hard on that mod of yours and it takes away from your real life it isn't my problem to financially support you, I respect the hell out of our modders but I don't have enough cash to support them.

Hell, one game can now cost me $200 bucks, buy the game, buy the DLC's and if I constantly donate to modders. Afterall we are talking about games not real life adventures... my 2 cents :)

jim_uk wrote: Not only would Bethesda be rewarded financially when other people fix their buggy games they could also be rewarded for putting less content in the base game and leaving modders to add the rest, just like micro transactions and DLC, paid mods could alter the very nature of the game.

zi0nec0 wrote: I would be right there with you. My PS4 just collects dust now because every game has turned into a bottomless money hole. If PC gaming goes the same route, that other less honorable venue of modified games will be a welcomed refuge.

This is the first generation of consoles I haven't bothered with, not because they're weak but because of the gouging. Gaming should be fun, being pestered or pressured constantly into opening your wallet isn't fun. I'm not buying Fallout 4 until I know what's going on with paid mods, I'm not spending £50 on a micro transaction platform. Edited September 11, 2015 by jim_uk

[Softclocks]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28569234. #28583494, #28587354, #28592309, #28592709 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

thelastzombie79 wrote: I remember when people could purchase a complete video game for one price, then we got partial games and have to buy the DLC for the full game. Paid modding looks like a wonderful opportunity to purchase a poorly made base game and then I would have to continue to purchase even smaller pieces at a time to get a full video game. If this becomes a reality I will no longer play or purchase video games and I hope that others will follow.

armadillo179 wrote: This was indeed one of my biggest concerns regarding the paid modding scene; would companies like Bethe care less about releasing sloppy broken games in the knowledge that the disgruntled PC audience will fix it for them.

Lets face it, PC games have shown a depressingly consistent history of receiving shoddy slapdash ports only to later be fixed or brought up to a decent standard by modders- not the dev's.

badkrma wrote: Agree, it was about fun years back to tweak the game, now money is the driving force for some...

 

As far as I'm concerned if people want to mod for money then create your own website and best of luck to you, I wish you no ill, but modding is about fun. If you work so hard on that mod of yours and it takes away from your real life it isn't my problem to financially support you, I respect the hell out of our modders but I don't have enough cash to support them.

 

Hell, one game can now cost me $200 bucks, buy the game, buy the DLC's and if I constantly donate to modders. Afterall we are talking about games not real life adventures... my 2 cents :smile:

jim_uk wrote: Not only would Bethesda be rewarded financially when other people fix their buggy games they could also be rewarded for putting less content in the base game and leaving modders to add the rest, just like micro transactions and DLC, paid mods could alter the very nature of the game.

zi0nec0 wrote: I would be right there with you. My PS4 just collects dust now because every game has turned into a bottomless money hole. If PC gaming goes the same route, that other less honorable venue of modified games will be a welcomed refuge.

This is the first generation of consoles I haven't bothered with, not because they're weak but because of the gouging. Gaming should be fun, being pestered or pressured constantly into opening your wallet isn't fun. I'm not buying Fallout 4 until I know what's going on with paid mods, I'm not spending £50 on a micro transaction platform.

 

 

100% agree.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28569234. #28583494, #28587354 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

thelastzombie79 wrote: I remember when people could purchase a complete video game for one price, then we got partial games and have to buy the DLC for the full game. Paid modding looks like a wonderful opportunity to purchase a poorly made base game and then I would have to continue to purchase even smaller pieces at a time to get a full video game. If this becomes a reality I will no longer play or purchase video games and I hope that others will follow.

armadillo179 wrote: This was indeed one of my biggest concerns regarding the paid modding scene; would companies like Bethe care less about releasing sloppy broken games in the knowledge that the disgruntled PC audience will fix it for them.

Lets face it, PC games have shown a depressingly consistent history of receiving shoddy slapdash ports only to later be fixed or brought up to a decent standard by modders- not the dev's.

badkrma wrote: Agree, it was about fun years back to tweak the game, now money is the driving force for some...

 

As far as I'm concerned if people want to mod for money then create your own website and best of luck to you, I wish you no ill, but modding is about fun. If you work so hard on that mod of yours and it takes away from your real life it isn't my problem to financially support you, I respect the hell out of our modders but I don't have enough cash to support them.

 

Hell, one game can now cost me $200 bucks if I constantly donate. Afterall we are talking about games not real life adventures... my 2 cents :smile:

Not only would Bethesda be rewarded financially when other people fix their buggy games they could also be rewarded for putting less content in the base game and leaving modders to add the rest, just like micro transactions and DLC, paid mods could alter the very nature of the game.

 

 

This message is not being taken on board or talked about enough.

[Laast]

Many users here seem to think that a modder is simply a bot who provide a file, answer questions, help users, and make updates. Why a bot would want to get retribution? This is not work, this is just Internet! Internet is just a matter of entertainment and sharing!

 

I had the chance to make mods which became popular (at a point that even Bethesda noticed my work), and I'm still thanksfull to the communauty for that. But after the paid mod story (which I lived from the inside), I realized that there was a deep misundertanding between popular modders and users.

 

Creating and supporting a popular mod is incredibly time consuming. The more users download your mod, the more you have to answer questions, provide support, and ultimately the more you try to give your best to take requests and to improve the mod. Making updates for a mod is as difficult and time consuming as creating the mod itself. It's an endless work.

 

Believe me or not, most of modders have a real life with a full-time job. Some have a wife/husband, some have children. And they have only 24 hours per day. Just like anybody else.

 

Four months ago, I realized that many users here and on the Workshop didn't even think about this, and were so selfish: "Mods are free! Mods mean sharing! I don't want to spend money for mods!..." But where are mods coming from? They come from the free time sacrificed, the countless hours some people spend to create them, with their heart and soul, without any other purpose than the pleasure of sharing their passion.

 

Doesn't this deserve a form of retribution if you like their work?

 

I don't have to justify myself about why I spend my free time on modding and why I chose to sell my mod on Steam. I don't have to explain why I think paid mods was not the so-called worst idea of the century. I'm a creator, so I create. What I'm doing with my creations, this is my business.

 

Some people understand, some people don't.

 

(Sorry if my english is not as perfect as I would like).

Edited September 11, 2015 by Laast

[demok]

In response to post #28566779. #28583639 is also a reply to the same post.

fanuilh1 wrote: I not a modder, leastways not a good one. However how many began because they liked the game but wanted to tweak it a bit? Then some of their friends saw the tweaks and wanted them.....onto the Nexus with them. Once uploaded others began using these tweaks and the author started adding in more ect..
Many learned as they created, some were already into programming or graphic design maybe creating a mod for a thesis. Playing around making mods is not the same as game developement save for the DLC sized ones. Doing something for the love of it or going into a business that you love that maybe started as a hobby....When you feel you need more than accolades it's time to create your own game (avoiding legal snafus) The Nexus isn't about modders getting rich. It's about learning the ropes to tweak your game and if it turns out well sharing. If you find your talented resume time. AKA If you want money for sharing don't share. Just my 2 cents

armadillo179 wrote: Exactly. Well said.
I think some people are forgetting that of the thousands of mods available on this site- probably 99% of them actually existed before the paid-mods fiasco, which should probably indicate the mod authors weren't doing it for money!

I think you're conflating "Some authors may wish to receive donations if people wanted to give them" with "all mod authors should receive donations". Someone who does some small tweaks fully falls within what you've referenced. But the ones who do obscene overhauls because the platform supports it? Hundreds or thousands of hours of work? Work that, if it were done on "their own game", as you put it, still wouldn't have a functional alpha? Games take teams of people or an obscenely well developed base to build on, with tools that are powerful and efficient to use. While the creation kit is not efficient or easy to use, it is still considerably better than starting from scratch to do the same thing.

[Ynguatep]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that. Edited September 11, 2015 by Ynguatep

[Spleentor]

The only person the gamer is reasonably happy to pay directly for content is Bethesda (typically via steam and their cut). So really, Bethesda has all the money already that users will ::happily:: pay. Bethesda also makes more money if more copies of the game sell, and also makes a bucket more off the DLC packs that almost every serious modder has bought.

 

Bethesda seems to feel that good mod authors deserve better payment for their work, and personally I agree with this sentiment.

 

Regrettably, they also seem to erroneously believe that they should get ongoing revenue relating to content targeting this framework (skyrim).

 

What Bethesda appears to have failed to recognize is that when users buy their game, purchasers have expected that the use of the engine that ships with native mod support with freely available and compatible third party content is fair and reasonable. In an absurd dichotomy, Bethesda several years on are now trying to argue that because mod content is compatible with their framework, they should be getting paid for you being able to specifically target and effectively deliver content to it.

 

They are well aware that if they were to turn around tomorrow and say "you have to pay to create mods for our game" that they would have no legal standing to declare such from. EULA "license" boilerplate has been tested and invalidated time after time in European and American courts alike.

 

Even if they did manage to make it stick, the community would just go completely underground (much like all the paid DLC became available on torrent sites during their first attempt) while destroying the broad appeal for modders to experiment with their software. As this would inevitably be a commercial failure, they are instead trying to make end users pay (again) for fair use of their software with third party content under the guise of "rewarding modders".

 

Fair use is ultimately what this entire "paid modding fiasco" boils down to. It is common knowledge that "fair use" in copyright infringement and intellectual property cases is a legally gray area often requiring interpretation of a large number of diverse factors.

 

Ultimately, courts will seek to strike a balance between the rights and incentives of the rights holders and the welfare and benefit of the general public.

 

In this scenario, the massive modding community has directly resulted in rampant sales figures for Skyrim and its related DLC on steam directly benefiting Bethesda. The General public have also had access to a wider variety of content compatible with Bethesda's framework for free except for being targeted by advertisers (low impact, low cost, low return). In this scenario, it is a win / win. In a pay for mod scenario, it is a win win / lose.

 

The bottom line is that Bethesda hasn't pursued people selling paid mods on third party sites because their (undoubtedly very clever) lawyers realise that their legal footing is ::very:: slippery. The chances of them recovering the costs of said very clever lawyers is highly unlikely. Also, they realise such a move to monopolise commercial delivery of mods would result in near immediate backlash (see: paid modding fiasco, Steam).

 

Personally if I was the Nexus I would be strongly considering setting up as a competing compatible content provider, allow mod authors to take a fair cut of mod sales (as they do to a limited extent now via personal websites, in game messages, premium features etc) and actually deal with the legal and technical hijinks rather than shying from it. A fair model, a fair price and a good UI/UX supporting wallets of funds will be critical.

 

Bethesda can't "support" the Nexus doing anything that could potentially put you in a competing position to themselves for sales of compatible content. If Bethesda or any of these other megacorps want to sell compatible content (DLC) in a comparable manner, at least make them work for it.

 

A monopoly is never good for an end user.