Hot Topic #1: The dumbing down of Oblivion

[Nick1985]

It's very sad to say but in my eyes vanilla Oblivion is yust an unfinished game, brought out for way to early...

 

 

I yust picked upp on the game very recently after I quit playing a year ago. Then I saw there was a new Oscuro mod out v1.3, Now oblivion is "done"...

 

Vanilla Oblivion without any mods isn't worth playing. I can imagine when this is the first RPG someone plays or a noob gamer they think waaw an oooh, but I've been gaming for 15 years now, and I see and feel what is wrong with this game...

 

 

Nick_Since_1985

[Dark0ne]

First of all, this is the first game I have played in the series. I have and still enjoy playing the game. I shall even go as far as to say it it the best role-playing game I have ever played.

 

I think that is the single largest defining factor in the stance between enjoyment and disappointment in Oblivion. For those people who played Morrowind extensively Oblivion failed to expand on the game because, for many, Morrowind was their first ES experience. As a result the people who played Morrowind were less appreciative of Oblivion as those who never played it. I think this should be Bethesda's prime concern in the development of TESV.

[Rhydderch Hael]

...The other total nonsense is that the factions have no requirements on the player for becoming a member and being promoted. It is possible to become Archmage for instance without a single 'magic skill' over 5. ...

You know what is most telling about this point? In the Mages' Guild recommendation quests, which are supposed to ensure that the pathetically unqualified don't cross those gates into the Arcane University, you are actually given free spells and scrolls to help you complete these tasks. It's like taking a driver's exam on a roller coaster!

 

Rufio only has 1 point of health! One point! There's an Imperial Legion Soldier within screaming distance— and you have nothing to worry about!

[memlapse1]

I am one of the few that have not played MW or any of the previous ES games. When I first purchased the game (on a whim) I emerged from the sewers, saved and didn't touch it for several months. The reason for that was due to time and a substandard video card. I never had a game bring a computer to its knees like this one. I beefed up my box a few months later, cranked up the res and took in the incredible graphics.

 

It was then that I discovered the mod community, the mod manager and the construction set. That was when the real fun began. I toyed with just about every decent mod I could get my hands on. I created a few of my own and didn't even touch the main quest for several weeks. It was only after I had a feel for the environment and the perfect combination of mods did I delve into the the actual game. I played through the main quest most of the way and didn't allow myself to be distracted by the side quests. I stalled on the main quest and pursued the mages quest. That's when I realized that this game had such an incredible environment, but no soul. It was hollow inside. It was lacking character. The story line was bland and predictable. I never really got myself into any serious trouble nor did I have the opportunity to regret any "cross roads" decisions. Too many failsafes. I was a bit taken aback by the number of bugs and truly questioned the abilities of their QA folks. I came to the conclusion that the developers found out they had grand ideas but the scope was too large. They compromised and delivered a stripped down game hoping that the graphics and the "cutting edge" AI would compensate for it's shortcomings. I also suspect that they hoped that some of the "Mod Gods" would keep the game interesting by filling some serious gaps in gameplay. To an extend they succeeded. They are some very talented modders out there.

 

The "bones" of this game is unlike any other, but it needs a soul and some major fleshing out before it comes alive and can truly stand with some of the great games of its generation. Keep in mind that this game has provided many hours (or should I say months) of enjoyment whereas many others have not. I truly love this game or what this game should have (and may still) become.

 

Yours truly,

A fellow Oblidiot

[Number32]

I believe that the largest of problems within Oblivion is the amount of quest markers. Morrowind was extremely hard at times without the markers (It took me an hour to find the first dwemer ruin and another hour to find the puzzle box) but Oblivion is over-saturated with quest markers. Also the addition of voice acting made much information cut back on.

[SlappyMeats]

I gotta say that there are a lot of things working for and against Oblivion. Naturally, the beautiful graphics are going to raise the game a few pegs above Morrowind, but that has very little to do with the game itself.

 

I know that the quests are not as numerous in OB, nor the factions, nor the skills, nor the NPCs, nor the armor types, nor the clothing slots...where was I going with this? :huh: Oh yes, well the things that have been reduced in number have generally been improved in quality.

 

My first stab at the Elder Scrolls series was Daggerfall, way back when. While I was amazed at the time, the fact that every city and place looked like pretty much every other city and place didn't exactly lead to gameplay as dynamic as some folks like to claim. I don't think OB has suffered by taking away certain things, like some of the skills (I still miss my short blade and medium armor, though), as long as the implementation is buffed up or simply made more interesting. Lockpicking is a case for that point. Oblivion HAS suffered, however, by the removal of so many clothing slots and unique environments. Morrowind really did (or does still) have a lot going for it in terms of variety of gameplay, since decisions made in MW would actually catch up to you. In OB, your "good" or "evil" actions don't mean a damn thing in the long run, other than being inconvenienced by not being able to pray at altars.

 

One thing that Oblivion does far, far better than Morrowind: Combat.

 

The combat in Oblivion absolutely crushes that of Morrowind, like a sledgehammer crushes a grape. MW combat was piss-poor, and I was so thrilled to see that in OB, swinging a damn sword directly in the face of a bandit did not make that soul-piercing "miss" scrape sound 400 times before doing a speck of damage. Dodging, moving, blocking, and attacking all finally WORK. Not to mention the far superior marksmanship engine. Knives, stars, daggers, crossbows, whatever; I'll take the bow and arrow any day over a poorly implemented arsenal, no matter how massive.

 

Honestly, what would be ideal is a remake of Morrowind with the tools of Oblivion. I would still play Morrowind, as many do, if only I didn't have an aneurism every time I squared off with a cliff racer (which was every 4 seconds), swinging my weapon for an hour.

[wirecutter]

i've played both mw and ob...and all i can say is.. they're.... just different...

while alot of things have changed, oblivion to me just isnt that much better than morrowind...

 

sure it has its merits.. but not that many..

being able to join and advance in the guilds without really affecting ur standing in the other guilds was quite welcome. but after awhile it simply became a case of take over this guild, then take over that guild...

and u get the exact same quests in the exact same order.

a possible alternative could b optional 'insider jobs' given to u if u are a member of that guild.

and how would the listener of the dark brotherhood, the arch mage of the mage guild and the grad champion of the arena take to being called 'meat' by some orc in the fighter's guild?

 

 

and imagine the 'arch mage' of the mage guild who hasnt cast a single spell that does more than 5 dmg... and he cast that just to open some lock...

 

the story line was too predictable. way too predictable. escape from prison, and save the world. because ur the only one who can do it. its a quest borne out of desperation more than anything else..

at least in mw.. ur the nevarrine... thats called legend...

 

yes the combat system has a better feel to it now, but it does feel stripped down... all 1 handed weapons swing the same way, blade or blunt. all 2 handed weapons swing the exact same way too... which basically leaves u with a 1 handed stick, a 2 handed stick, a bow, and spells in terms of weapon variety... every other difference is just cosmetic.

 

another thing is the architecture of the buildings... unlike in morrowind, there is no distinctive 'cyrodil' style...

buildings in 1 city are completely different from buildings in another... take bruma and leyawin for example.... not to mention everything looks like its from medival england. at least in si the architecture was generally more distinctive.

 

the general fauna was very earth like too... bears.. mountain lions... wolves... boars.. its supposed to be a fantasy setting...

[Sypron]

yes the combat system has a better feel to it now, but it does feel stripped down... all 1 handed weapons swing the same way, blade or blunt. all 2 handed weapons swing the exact same way too... which basically leaves u with a 1 handed stick, a 2 handed stick, a bow, and spells in terms of weapon variety... every other difference is just cosmetic.

 

Well, the power attacks for the 1hand bland and 1hand blunt vary. I'm guessing they vary for 2hand aswell. But your point still stands. Morrowind had (in the CS) 12 weapon types (I think). Oblivion has all of 6.

 

Morrowind was the first real game i played. Before then it was just "One Must Fall" all day. I played morrowind for about 4 years (not strait, i went to the toilet once or twice).

Games= 1

Then Oblivion came out. I bought a new rig, which came with POP:WW. My friend also gave me Halo.

Games=3

Later I got oblivion

Games=4

I then later bought Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and Fable, TLC.

Games=6

 

Now, oblivion may be bad compared to morrowind, but compared to other games on the market Oblivion is still the best for me. Only once i spent money on Dark Messiah did i understand the concept of researching the game before buying it (DM has 0 replayability). The Elder Scrolls will always be for me that game that you just buy, no questions about it.

[Bismarck36]

I'll lead off by saying that I really do enjoy Oblivion and think its an awesome game, well worth the couple hundred hours I've sunk into it, but it fell short of my post-Morrowind expectations. Morrowind was my first ES experience, and impressed me so much that I played it continuously for three years (with occassional breaks for Rome: Total War) and did just about everything there was to do in it. Oblivion has bettered Morrowind in three respects I think: the beautiful graphics, the improved AI, and the awesome combat system. That being said, it fell short in a lot of ways.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record and repeat the things everyone else has said so far, but I think its important to reinforce them and send a clear message. First, the decrease in weapon classes, which continues to drive me nuts (i love spears, though I don't know why). Second, the lack of my preferred medium armor class, as well as the decrease in clothing/armor slots (poor forgotten pauldrons...), and what seemed a general thinning out of armor choices. Also the fact that in vanilla oblivion you're either going to end up with glass or daedric armor, both of which I think are hideous. Then there's the beautiful environment- with almost no real variation. In MW you had a wide variety of landscapes to wander, whereas Oblivion is pretty much all trees, grass, or barren mountains. And amongst this homogenous landscape: tons of pointless dungeons, with map markers and quest markers to lead you to everything without having to look for yourself. Then there's the quests and factions: not enough of either. And almost every quest there is seems hack-n-slash oriented - great for showing off the combat system, but boring after awhile. MW's fetch, escort, and deliver quests could be tedious, but they provided some variety. And I have to say that I especially miss the legion missions, which were my favorite in MW and provided your new character with some weapons, armor, money, experience, and fame, and rewarded an awesome cuirass AND sword for completing all its missions.

 

Now I'll get to the stuff I don't think anyone else said yet. First and foremost is the leveled everything system: baddies, weapons, armor; everything is tied to your level. This is annoying for several reasons: at low levels you'll never see any of the interesting things, but when you get to those high levels, even the common bandit runs around in glass armor. Then the type of daedra you run into are tied to your level, so after awhile those stupid spider ones get real tiresome. To talk about armor again, I'd have to say that it seems to me your AC never goes beyond 85, which you'll reach with either light or heavy, thus there is no real difference between them at the end. And sort of associated, the leap from Roman-style legionaries in MW to the crappy iron-clad legionaries of Oblivion.....why? I'll admit I like the Roman stuff better in general, and I could be content with the change if it weren't quite so sudden and thorough. Can't there at least be a few pieces of MW-style legionary armor around to be had?

 

Then there's the world itself, which I already touched on, but will elaborate. The land area is smaller than MW's, which is bad enough in itself. On top of that, it all looks more or less the same. Add in the fact that there is a vast overabundance of dungeons (mostly pointless) and the whole thing begins to feel too crowded, especially to those of us who would like some empty space to build on. What makes it even worse though, is the fast travel, which makes everything that much quicker to get to. Because I can fast travel from almost anywhere to just about anywhere, I find that I do, like most everyone else I bet, at the expense of the immersion factor of running through the wilds. I think I really prefer MW's system of transport: your feet, with some help from silt striders, boats, and mages guild teleporters that all charge you some fee and often require you to make stops along the way for "connecting flights." Also, I think the cities themselves are too small, with too few people in them. They all feel like villages except for the IC, which feels more like a town, but not the grand capitol of the Empire.

 

Also, it feels like there isn't any depth to conversations in the game. By switching from text to voice the developers really hemmed themselves in. In MW almost everyone had more to discuss than just "rumors" and quest-related topics. They usually had things to say about whatever factions or towns they were in, plus stuff about their professions and backgrounds (these were mostly generic and repetetive, but again, they added variety). And just to add on to the voice complaints, it makes modding more complicated, and I know I certainly don't want to hear a poor recording of my own voice coming out the speakers at me. Poor voice acting (both in vanilla Oblivion and modding) as well as a character that lacks any speach at all really detract from the immersion. And my last complaint is about horses. Aside from being useless (i never even bother with them anymore) you can't fight from one. I know there are mods out there that try to address this, but the developers really should have done something about it before they released the game. Personally my vote is for lances, but ANYTHING is better than NOTHING.

 

Sorry for writing so much, but I wanted to cover everything I could think of.

[21603]

Is Oblivion the game you were hoping for?

 

Yes and no. There are certain things in Oblivion I prefer over previous Elder Scrolls games and there are many things I dislike.

 

Do you enjoy playing it?

 

As much as I try to tell myself it's a crap game I keep coming back to it. Oscuro's Overhaul and the other mods I have installed help that happen.

 

If you were lead developer of Bethesda, what specific, major changes would you make to the game that you think would improve it?

 

I would never have made the PC version a console port for one, and the removal of Sutch (don't ban me) still really gets to me, the Imperial City would have been completely different also (much closer to how it was described in Redguards pocket guide to the empire).

 

Axe as blunt, that just makes no sense so I would have left the skill system the way it was. There are lots of little (and some major) inconsistencies throughout the game (where did the Emperor sleep) so I would also have done more research into my own lore, Leyawiin completely blocks off any ships from reaching the Imperial City (also little birdges, shallow water) so that would also have been "researched" better.

 

Fast travel would never have existed either, I think it's tacky and "console" dumb. A proper travel system would have been much more fun. The voice actor they used for the Dark Elves in Morrowind (and other games) was used in a demo trailer they were showing off and in the final game he is not used (no comment on current voice actor).

 

I think the previous actor was much more suited to that race and would have made the game that much better. The main quest sucks, it should have been much harder to find Martin, and the ending goes nowhere.

 

There are other things like the bogus screenshots they were showing off when the game was under development, lack of a stable construction set, etc.

 

That's all for now. ;D

 

Mine looks like a madman's rant compared to Bismarck36's well thought out and well written post :glare: