Is level scaling necessary?

[BadReplicant]

I remember the feeling of encounters back before level scaling was such a staple in RPGs and I gotta say it ruins level progression for me. I used to feel a sense of growth in my characters through leveling. You'd become high level and be able to focus on high level things that you had no chance to defeat before, giving you a sense of accomplishment. You're characters strength or weakness would be reflected in the game world. Bethesda games have used scaling for as long as I've played them but I was just wondering if anyone really likes this feature. It definitely hinders immersion for me when the entire world is suited for my particular level. The super mutant master I killed is now a super mutant overlord is now super mutant primus because when I went there I was level x,y,z. I just don't get it.

[mwhenry16]

Honestly, I hadn't really noticed it, except early on when under geared I ran into a legendary. I know the feeling you speak of, but I also recall the world's in games feeling cramped because I can't go to many areas. As always, some great mod authors will rectify this situation to your satisfaction in fairly short order.

[Boombro]

Fo4 has a different scaling system than past titles (since morrowind that did not scale.)

It does scale, but not the same way. It fixed scaling area or rubber effect:

Area A: 1 till 5.

Area B: 10-18.

Area C: 30-40.

 

Just like grim dawn.

 

It also not just about levels, but also type of spawns. You will face bugs first and they can be found near the starting area a lot. If you skipped the main quests and head south west, ghouls will be next, hardly raiders.

The south has the strongest in the glowing sea and mutes. But the coast scares me, a queen once ganked me when she dug up from the sand, first time seeing one too so I was shocked to see her.

 

Personally I like the this kind of scaling. The problem with fixed levels is that you easily and swiftly overpower them and end game gets boring really fast, it gets odd why normal npcs would want your help. But it does need more tweaking.

[Warmaker01]

The scaling seems to be there but it's not the same kind of scaling that was present in Vanilla Oblivion, which I seriously disliked. I still remember mods that killed Oblivion's scaling system were big deals for it. What FO4 does is it puts in harder NPC types into the mix. I know Survival difficulty throws in more Legendary NPCs. The world is still heavily populated with the regular NPCs but FO4 starts putting in "veteran" and other powerful NPCs. Not to a point where that's all you see, but enough to make the NPC mixes interesting. Oblivion? You'll find the simplest bandits sporting the best armors in the game and that kind of broke the "image" for me.

 

Put FO4 on Survival difficulty. Go out there without your cheats or any mods granting unforeseen advantages to the original game design. It'll be a different story and you'll be more careful. The problem however is that even with such play, there comes a certain point in your levels and equipment that you'll trivialize the world with your super strong character. That's probably why you've seen guys comment here and there that FO4's Survival difficulty is not hard enough.

 

IMO, Vanilla FO4 shines best at the "mid game" where you finally got some good stuff, decent ammo stockpile, interesting perks, and the NPCs are still a general danger. "Early game" is good because you're still counting your caps and bullets, that pipe gun is your best weapon, and that upgraded leather chest piece is a god-send to you. Late game, it's too easy. Sure, on Survival, there will be that 1 or 2 occasions that you can still get ganked hard but you tend to mow through everything. Late game, you tend to have piled up more Fusion Cores and access to more of them makes regular use of Power Armor very easy.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Warmaker01

[Boombro]

 

The scaling seems to be there but it's not the same kind of scaling that was present in Vanilla Oblivion, which I seriously disliked.

Lol yes, oblivion was the worst with overall scaling ever.

[jcdenton2012]

In my experience... the leveling scaling in this game is far from the worst that I've ever dealt with. Dead Island was probably the worst, and least justifiable. That having been said, I have to give props to Boombro because he hit it on the head with his comparison to Morrowind which does not scale enemies at all. I honestly prefer games which don't scale enemies and part of the challenge is in mining for xp and equipment to move forward in the game. This; however, can be taken to extremes: Destiny, Final Fantasy, etc, where the grind becomes a core feature.

 

But I digress, Fallout 4's level scaling doesn't actually haunt me that badly. I'm level 67 and encounter 1 primus, 2 masters, 3-5 butchers, and clutter when confronting super mutants in one of their strongholds. These, with the equipment I have in my arsenal, are handled adequately well. However, this is also the first time that I haven't played a 'VATs Build' in the game and went with a 'FPS Build.' The difference between the two is that a 'VATs Build' tends to be way to OP for players who invest heavily into perception and agility becoming ninja/snipers. Now, whether or not the game starts ridiculous scaling when I enter level 100+ (like in Oblivion) remains to be seen.

 

Regarding Oblivion, if you got powerful enough, the game would pretty much drop all the fodder and start spamming you with all the hard monsters. There were occasions where this became ridiculous, like fighting 4-5 Storm Atronachs at once, turn a corner and fight another 2.

[Boombro]

 

Regarding Oblivion, if you got powerful enough, the game would pretty much drop all the fodder and start spamming you with all the hard monsters. There were occasions where this became ridiculous, like fighting 4-5 Storm Atronachs at once, turn a corner and fight another 2.

And you hunt bandits for the best end game gear near your city! That what bothered me the most about oblivion. Holy s#*! that was dump.

[jcdenton2012]

Oh yeah.... I forgot about all that Deadric armor they carry. I ended up hunting those bastards down until I had AAA set of armor. Later on did a bunch of self enchantment stuff and ended up with 60% damage resistance, but that's besides the point.

[BadReplicant]

Just to clarify I wasn't really saying the level scaling in this is good or bad. I just personally don't know how I feel about level scaling in general. Eventually yeah you become OP against most anyone but it seems more to reuse a limited number of enemies. It also makes your progress less noticeable and the world feel more similar throughout. I'm not bashing on Fallout 4 this time ;) Just don't really think I like this mechanic in general. A non-scaled world, i feel, would need to be crafted more precisely and create a less repetitive experience. Also if I level my character and put points into noncombat slots I'm now at a disadvantage for no good reason.

[Boombro]

 

It also makes your progress less noticeable and the world feel more similar throughout.

If you don't know where to go.

 

Try mr. handy factory, old state house, the light house, super duper mart etc at early levels, then come back at 40+. You will feel powerful. Those places wreaked me hard.