Osama finally killed.

[HellsMaster]

My brother told me a joke about Osama yesterday, felt like sharing cos I geniunly laughed :hurr:

 

Anyway:

 

Dude 1: Did you hear Osama is dead?

 

Dude 2: Yeah, funny what Americans can do when PSN is down!

[AncientSpaceAeon]

I have to say, I'm surprised.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPUJxu3Fd2o&feature=feedu

[HeyYou]

Surprised at what? Hollywood exploiting an event, in the hopes of garnering some profit? Nevermind that is will more'n likely stir up a great deal of controversy in some parts of the world? Sounds to me more like standard fare.

[deu58]

After bothering so much of human lives finally he is dead.Now we can leave freely without any fear of terrorism.

Pfft it only pissed them off.

Think 9/11 it didn't disassemble us but it brought us together to be stronger. Same with Osama

 

 

You mean like they were not already pissed off and planning to kill more people anyway? They really went out of their way to hide this guy and we found him. How long it took does not even matter. The clear cut message to them is no matter where or how well you hide we will find you.

 

The real problem now is the current rise of the Muslim Brotherhood revolutions sweeping the midle east. These uprisings are not about establishing "democracy" as we know it in the western world but a return to Islamic sharia law etc. As can already be seen in what is happening in Egypt with the opening of the border. This will increase the free flow illegal arms and operatives moving in and out of the area and showing that they now support the Hamas group and their goals.

 

We supported these various dicatators not because we thought that were really nice guys and just misunderstood by the rest of the world but because most of these dicatators needed to keep groups like Al Quida and the brotherhood in check. These dictators are miserable rotten excuses for human beings without doubt but their removal will not bring peace and stability to the middle east. As Israel feels more threatened and isolated in the region from a more concerted and organized force against them things will get worse.

[HeyYou]

Yeah, and we here in the states, are helping finance some of those revolutions..... neat huh? Gotta do wonderful things for our allies confidence eh?

[deu58]

Yeah but it is a real rock and a hard spot type situation. If we do not support the dictators then we run the risk of a 100% militant type Islam controlling the middle east which is going to happen and that is taking shape right before our very eyes. But the dictators are monsters. When these revolts happen if we support the dictator then we are seen as supporters of tyranny which actually increases our own risk as in militant attacks against US citizens, Military Personal, and any business assets. As an example, the militants will use children as shields, Hospitals Mosques schools etc as command centers ammunition stores etc and nobody even really seems to care but if the US or an ally accidently kills civilians or damages a mosque it is global front page news and there is hell to pay in the backlash from the Muslim community.

 

It is a lose lose situation for us. Look at Pakistan right now. The Bin Laden operation has them up in arms over the violation of a sovereign state. An act of war and yet we are still pumping billions into their country and will continue to do so. India must really be having a good laugh right. now. Hey Obama how do you like those Pakistani allies now? It needs to be remembered that just because a Muslim government supports the US it does not mean that the people of the nation that the government represents actually supports the government position. And these people are extremely volatile.

 

One of the current concerns today over Libya. Ok Kadhafy is horrible man. But just who are we helping into the drivers seat? Muslim war strategy is if you can get one enemy help you over throw another enemy then this is good tactics. Hard to disagree with that from a tactical point of view but point is treaties agreements these things mean nothing to them. They are just tools to help get to the next step of the Islamic vision of a world with no infidels in it.

Removing Bin laden was important in our engagement with Al-Qaeda but in the over all Islamic vision of one world under Islam it has no impact at all. It of course will not end terrorism nor will it end the primary Islamic vision

[HeyYou]

And that is exactly why I think we should just stop foreign aid altogether. It doesn't matter whom we support, the very fact that we ARE supporting one side or the other generally pisses someone off...... and then its cries of JIHAD!!!! In a lose-lose situation, the best option is simply NOT to play.

[deu58]

I can understand and sympathize with your view but in the modern world isolation is no longer an option. We have two choices. Either lead or follow. If we do not take an active role in shaping and guiding the policies of the emerging nations then the policies emerging from those nations are going to guide and shape us. True they already do to a certain extent but if we do not actively participate then the effect of these emerging nations policies will be even more pronounced upon us in the future and as can be seen here in the US since 9/11 those changes in our own policies can be very sudden and very drastic. The bulk of the worlds population lives in these emerging countries. In many of these places they are oppressed angry and hungry and people like Bin Laden are hero's to them. Here on this forum most of us are from countries where Bin Laden is seen as the villain and I also agree that he was a villain of the worst sort. But if we were born in Egypt, Iraq, Syria or Palestine would we still see him the same way?

 

Basically our lose lose choice is either lose a little or loose a lot. If we sit back and twiddle our thumbs we will lose a lot because this is not a conflict that we can avoid because it is actively seeking to engage us whether we want to deal with it or not. If we step up to the plate and at least try to do something then we may not lose as much and may possibly create an opportunity to at least have some kind of negotiating power with who ever ends up on the winning end of the current on going conflicts raging in so many third world countries today. The situation seen from this particular point in history may seem hopeless and why try but during past times our own countries in the west were at war with each other and bitter enemies. Look at the countries that make up NATO today and then look at their past histories with each other. All of us were at war with each other at one time or another. Thus we shuck out the billions hoping that it will pay some kind of positive dividend in the future. Maybe not our immediate future but maybe in our children's future. We were all violent oppressive nations at one time and each of our countries have innocent blood on their hands whether it be 2 weeks ago or 200 or 2000 years ago.

 

 

There are 1 billion Muslims they say today and it is the fastest growing religion. Not all these people are of the militant slant and many are peaceful. But if even only 10% of this 1billion are of the militant stripe then we still have no choice but to somehow whether it be via cash, trade concessions or even involving our own militaries some how support the other 90% of Muslims especially in the emerging nations that simply want to practice their own beliefs and way of life in peace. If we do not then that 10% of Muslims is going to take over the 90% of peaceful Muslims in their own areas of control and will force them at gun point if necessary to support and even fight for own their militant views.

Edited June 3, 2011 by deu58

[HeyYou]

I can understand and sympathize with your view but in the modern world isolation is no longer an option. We have two choices. Either lead or follow. If we do not take an active role in shaping and guiding the policies of the emerging nations then the policies emerging from those nations are going to guide and shape us. True they already do to a certain extent but if we do not actively participate then the effect of these emerging nations policies will be even more pronounced upon us in the future and as can be seen here in the US since 9/11 those changes in our own policies can be very sudden and very drastic. The bulk of the worlds population lives in these emerging countries. In many of these places they are oppressed angry and hungry and people like Bin Laden are hero's to them. Here on this forum most of us are from countries where Bin Laden is seen as the villain and I also agree that he was a villain of the worst sort. But if we were born in Egypt, Iraq, Syria or Palestine would we still see him the same way?

 

Basically our lose lose choice is either lose a little or loose a lot. If we sit back and twiddle our thumbs we will lose a lot because this is not a conflict that we can avoid because it is actively seeking to engage us whether we want to deal with it or not. If we step up to the plate and at least try to do something then we may not lose as much and may possibly create an opportunity to at least have some kind of negotiating power with who ever ends up on the winning end of the current on going conflicts raging in so many third world countries today. The situation seen from this particular point in history may seem hopeless and why try but during past times our own countries in the west were at war with each other and bitter enemies. Look at the countries that make up NATO today and then look at their past histories with each other. All of us were at war with each other at one time or another. Thus we shuck out the billions hoping that it will pay some kind of positive dividend in the future. Maybe not our immediate future but maybe in our children's future. We were all violent oppressive nations at one time and each of our countries have innocent blood on their hands whether it be 2 weeks ago or 200 or 2000 years ago.

 

 

There are 1 billion Muslims they say today and it is the fastest growing religion. Not all these people are of the militant slant and many are peaceful. But if even only 10% of this 1billion are of the militant stripe then we still have no choice but to somehow whether it be via cash, trade concessions or even involving our own militaries some how support the other 90% of Muslims especially in the emerging nations that simply want to practice their own beliefs and way of life in peace. If we do not then that 10% of Muslims is going to take over the 90% of peaceful Muslims in their own areas of control and will force them at gun point if necessary to support and even fight for own their militant views.

 

Excellent post. Kudos to you for that one. :D

 

I still don't see how our billions of dollars are buying us anything though, now, or in the future. All we seem to be accomplishing is bankrupting our nation (granted, foreign aid is a drop in the bucket in the overall scheme of things), and giving money to support governments of countries that hate us. We are seen by the vast majority of 'emerging nations' as little more than bullies, trying to buy friends, and force our 'way of life' on others, that have a completely different idea of what the world should be like.. That just doesn't work. Never has in the past, but, we still seem to think it might in some future.

 

Also, consider that we are now supporting 'rebels', or, whatever you want to call them, that are overthrowing governments that we once called allies. That can't be very reassuring to our current allies....... are we so easy to convince to support some group, just because it looks like they are going to win, even against those we at one time called "friends"? That really doesn't fit my view of what I would consider a "friend", or an "ally"...... Are we building our future here? Or cutting our own throats? Only time will tell.

[deu58]

Again at the personal level I agree with you. But the broader picture is much more complicated. I do not mean "Just give me the Big Picture" kind of thing but instead a "Big Picture" that includes many small details and grey areas that must be considered and yet there are so many small details in that picture you are still going to miss some that may derail you. Take for example the terms you use, "Allies" and "support".

 

My first time in the Philippines was back in my own military days in the early 70's during the Marcos regime which was then an "ally" and we "supported" that regime. When the 1986 Edsa revolution occurred that over threw the Marcos regime we did not rush in with troops and gunships to help keep Marcos in power. Generally the type of support we give such regimes is we warn them that their own evil ways may bring dire consequences upon their own heads. In that event we played both sides of the conflict. We harbored the Aquino's in the US and strongly advised Benigno against returning to the Philippines but his mind was made up. Then we harbored the Marcos family in Hawaii after the Edsa. That is just how the game is played.

 

We may actually support such a regime militarily if it serves a common interest. " US special forces over the years have served in Zamboanga Province in Mindanao assisting the Philippine government forces against the frequent Muslim uprisings in the area. But we cannot lift even one finger to stop a large scale popular uprising such as an Edsa event against a corrupt regime. We tried that in Central America with Nicaragua and El Salvador and we were instrumental in the downfall of the Allende government in Chile which ushered in the Pinochet dictatorship. When ever we have tried to be the man behind the curtain some little dog always runs up and pulls the curtain back exposing us leading to our embarrassment on the world stage.

 

Yemen today for example. We support the regime there not because we think Saleh is a good guy. We know he is not. But he stands against Al Qaeda so we give a limited form of support and aide that is mutually beneficial. If we were to rush in with actual military support we would find ourselves at war with the entire middle east. Every Muslim country from Egypt to Bahrain would send fighters to Yemen on a large scale. Much like what gave rise to Bin Laden in Afghanistan when fighters from all over the middle east went to fight the Russian invaders. Most of our "Allies" are very much aware of just how much we can help them and why we cannot go further. It would not matter if it was the Canadians the Brits the Germans or the French who were aiding and supporting the regimes the politics is all the same. We will support you this far but if things go wrong well then we are going to start talking to who ever looks like the winner is going to be.

 

The primary role of any government is or at least should be to promote the best possible conditions for their own people. That means that if any other "allied" government becomes a liability rather than an asset in that goal then they become sacrificial. Politics is a dirty filthy game of treachery and betrayal. It always has been and it always will be.