On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[DarkTl]

In response to post #39832980. #40268845, #40275465, #40295955, #40487115, #40516110, #40547280, #40548270, #40563460, #40576465, #40616490, #40860170, #40903120 are all replies on the same post.

marc5477 wrote: It is my understand that mods rights are owned by Bethesda, not the author, as long as the mod does not break any sort of copyright law. Are you sure you aren't getting upset over nothing?

Since you dont own your own mod, what difference does it make to you, if someone does something to it without permission? You will never make money from it and you will not get famous from it (any more, since its so easy to do compared to the old days). So whats the point?

If you want to make money from game assets then by all means sell the assets and there are many ways to do that but dont put them into someone elses game without reading the contract for doing so. If someone took one of my mods I wouldnt care one bit as long as they are not making money from my work and they are not getting famous from it. If either of those ever happen, you always have a legal recourse. The only thing I ever asked is to just give me credit somewhere in the doc that I at least exist lol.

Have the rules changed since Morrowind?

Nitrate55 wrote: And what if they're not giving you credit when they take your work? Or, better yet, they're claiming every bit of your work for themselves, fooling people into believing that they are the ones who made it, that they're the ones who poured their hard work into it, and not you. I understand that you might not care, but there's a vast majority of people who do care about this kind of thing. People who cannot tolerate this kind of thing. For example, why would I want to continue creating my work at all if I know it's just going to get taken by someone else, that some thief out there is going to take credit for my work? I think it's enough to dissillusion some people from even modding at all in the first place

Solongchu wrote: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Read this and you will see that Beth doesnt own your mods.

RandomViolence222 wrote: Well modding would fall under derivative works, so yeah Bethesda owns your mods.

JeorgErsteman wrote: Not even remotely.
Especially in this case, where Beth has themselves granted the right, and the tools to create based on the work.
Then by directing those who have had their works taken by other parties to file legal claims.. they have wiped their hands of any claim to ownership.
You don't have to even be a shithouse lawyer to see that.
Plus it simply gets down to right and wrong.
If Beth revoked 'free pass' to mod their core program, they could then stipulate that any works are theirs. But, it still would be theft then if anyone posted any creation not their own anywhere.. as now they would be claiming, posting Beth's now declared property.. so no matter how you slice it.. if YOU didn't make it.. it aint yours to do anything with.

PirateZ86 wrote: No, Beth owns your mods. watch

. Read the EULA again.

mathiascronqvist wrote: RTFPost

FishBiter wrote: I mean did you even read the giant article up there? He covers this. He covers every single thing you said, and you're wrong... on every count.

wakkytabbaky wrote: those that say they wouldnt care if their mod was stolen / uploaded under someone elses name obviously has not spent the long hours of putting together a mod and being frustrated at every little problem that arises.

people that mod dont wake up in the morning and say today is a great day to create a mod for someone to steal

chuckles0000 wrote: That has already been covered. and even if bethesda were to pull some legal loophole, they would face immediate public backlash or worse.

Calinaas wrote: @Nitrate55 Actually there is a way to prove someone stole your work. It's the easiest way in the book.. check the time stamps of both mods. There's your proof. If someone was taking my mods and charging people for it they've already broken the law and Bethesda can technically sue them for it, also if the person who stole the mod tried everything in their power to pretend and lie they made it first. The time stamps don't lie. All I'd have to do is show people or the community my mod was uploaded first. I'm not saying it's okay to steal people's work. I'm just saying trying to prove it's stolen shouldn't be difficult.

DarkTl wrote: Uhh, time stamps? You locally change time and date on your pc and then resave the mod and all its files. Moreover, there is soft that allows you to change any files attributes, including time of creation and editing.

And if you propose to check time of uploading to bethesda.aids, it is not a proof, since a thief could do it sooner than the author.

Superbrony64 wrote:
Sure they can do it sooner than the author but if the Timestamp of when it went onto Nexus Mods server says say 12:46 June 8 2015 and the Timestamp of when it went to Bethesdas server said 14:16 July 20 2016. You can clearly see where the original came from. Also BETHESDA DOES NOT OWN YOUR MODS!!! When you put them through the creation kit Bethesda receives a LICENSE to do whatever they want with it. BUT that can be revoked by the OWNER WHICH IS THE MOD MAKER by pulling the mod from the server and telling bethesda to f*#@ off. In other words bethesda can use it but they CANT own it.

I highly doubt Bethesda will accept as a proof dates from a website they don't own.

[sp0tty]

2 solutions:

 

1) Add a "release" feature to creation kit that generates a locked plugin that can't be modified. In-game browser shows author credits from metadata in plugin, not file uploader. Mod author never distributes the dev/unlocked version. Probably impossible to make it foolproof though. On the other hand, who's going to bother cracking a plugin to change the credits when their intent is to make it available on console?

 

2) Every mod author uploads to bethesda.net and nexus. This is maybe what Bethesda expected people to do?

[Ameisenfutter]

In response to post #40671960. #40689680, #40841275, #40841980 are all replies on the same post.

JZSquared wrote: Personally I believe that Bethesda didn't see much promise in modding in the early days and probably viewed it as a novelty. Now that it has become such a big thing and that it's being sought after so heavily by the console community, they have to change their perspective. And honestly, I believe that Bethesda sees this as an opportunity to cash in. I believe the creation of Bethesda.net was a way to cut Steam out of the profits of paid modding, so they could keep more for themselves. Also it's a way to reach console users who have no alternative to receive mods for their system. Thus forcing them to have to buy from Bethesda's service, when the time comes. So after the many years all of you have spent building up the modding community and providing invaluable resources, Bethesda is here to take advantage of everyone's hard work. With this they took the same approach that Steam first did, which was a huge mistake. They are attempting to make the system completely automatic to save money, so they don't have to hire additional staff. This of course will not work and instead of learning from others mistakes, they'll just make the same ones again.

Also I would just like to add that if they have an incompetent system in place, they can then keep the mods up for longer and so with paid modding earn more money. Just some food for thought.

Therobwil wrote: that is F'ing terrifying... maybe I should be against the 'Special Edition' rather than neutral about it.

Chasenyx wrote: That would actually make a lot of sense, I felt this with Fallout 4, or it's my imagination, that they gave us a somewhat unfisnished project and counted on the modders to do it right.
I mean it just felt like that for me.
Now with other people doing the actual work Bethesda should do, like bug fixing and developing good content, they still see this as a gold ore.
I understand console useres for their want/need of mods, because they're a very good addition and it shames me to think that Bethasda would use this to their benefit. I always thought very highly of them, which sadly started to change with the whole 'paid-modding on steam' fiasco.
That was some very good food for my thoughts, thank you for sharing your opinion :)

Arthmoor wrote: Conspiracy theories are lame.

He has a point tho. Imo, Fallout4 would not be a very good game without mods, compared to state-of-the-art-titles like Witcher3.

/ Far Harbor for example does in no way compare to Dawnguard or Dragonborn, considering storytelling, playtime and level design. Fallout4 seems to be in many ways not that well done and I really can't loose the feeling Bethesda has been a little lazy on that one. Edited July 30, 2016 by Ameisenfutter

[Mitigate]

In response to post #40671960. #40689680, #40841275, #40841980, #40953640 are all replies on the same post.

JZSquared wrote: Personally I believe that Bethesda didn't see much promise in modding in the early days and probably viewed it as a novelty. Now that it has become such a big thing and that it's being sought after so heavily by the console community, they have to change their perspective. And honestly, I believe that Bethesda sees this as an opportunity to cash in. I believe the creation of Bethesda.net was a way to cut Steam out of the profits of paid modding, so they could keep more for themselves. Also it's a way to reach console users who have no alternative to receive mods for their system. Thus forcing them to have to buy from Bethesda's service, when the time comes. So after the many years all of you have spent building up the modding community and providing invaluable resources, Bethesda is here to take advantage of everyone's hard work. With this they took the same approach that Steam first did, which was a huge mistake. They are attempting to make the system completely automatic to save money, so they don't have to hire additional staff. This of course will not work and instead of learning from others mistakes, they'll just make the same ones again.

Also I would just like to add that if they have an incompetent system in place, they can then keep the mods up for longer and so with paid modding earn more money. Just some food for thought.

Therobwil wrote: that is F'ing terrifying... maybe I should be against the 'Special Edition' rather than neutral about it.

Chasenyx wrote: That would actually make a lot of sense, I felt this with Fallout 4, or it's my imagination, that they gave us a somewhat unfisnished project and counted on the modders to do it right.
I mean it just felt like that for me.
Now with other people doing the actual work Bethesda should do, like bug fixing and developing good content, they still see this as a gold ore.
I understand console useres for their want/need of mods, because they're a very good addition and it shames me to think that Bethasda would use this to their benefit. I always thought very highly of them, which sadly started to change with the whole 'paid-modding on steam' fiasco.
That was some very good food for my thoughts, thank you for sharing your opinion :)

Arthmoor wrote: Conspiracy theories are lame.

Ameisenfutter wrote: He has a point tho. Imo, Fallout4 would not be a very good game without mods, compared to state-of-the-art-titles like Witcher3.

/ Far Harbor for example does in no way compare to Dawnguard or Dragonborn, considering storytelling, playtime and level design. Fallout4 seems to be in many ways not that well done and I really can't loose the feeling Bethesda has been a little lazy on that one.

Agreed. Those who disagree tend to be mod authors who wish to sellout and try to make a buck themselves at the expense of the community.

Bethesda making lazy games and DLC from now on will only increase the modding community's activity and lead to more profit when they drop the paid mods bomb. Edited July 31, 2016 by Mitigate

[mancika]

In response to post #40924330.

sp0tty wrote: 2 solutions:

1) Add a "release" feature to creation kit that generates a locked plugin that can't be modified. In-game browser shows author credits from metadata in plugin, not file uploader. Mod author never distributes the dev/unlocked version. Probably impossible to make it foolproof though. On the other hand, who's going to bother cracking a plugin to change the credits when their intent is to make it available on console?

2) Every mod author uploads to bethesda.net and nexus. This is maybe what Bethesda expected people to do?

Hm. What I download here, I also edit for my tastes. If plugins were locked I would not dl any, or would just dl it to get the idea/method how to do things. I do the secong choice a lot, even integrating specific changes into my main plugin.

So modding-wise
1., it would take me a lot of time to reproduce the same things IF even having the knowledge/tools (overhaul mods...!)
2., i would not do the changes/additions even if i have the knowledge cuz you just simply cannot do as much as 40 or a 100 people for your game.
3., what is locked will be cracked open, as we all know. The end result is the same. Edited August 1, 2016 by mancika

[Derrick93]

In response to post #40671960. #40689680, #40841275, #40841980, #40953640, #40967475 are all replies on the same post.

JZSquared wrote: Personally I believe that Bethesda didn't see much promise in modding in the early days and probably viewed it as a novelty. Now that it has become such a big thing and that it's being sought after so heavily by the console community, they have to change their perspective. And honestly, I believe that Bethesda sees this as an opportunity to cash in. I believe the creation of Bethesda.net was a way to cut Steam out of the profits of paid modding, so they could keep more for themselves. Also it's a way to reach console users who have no alternative to receive mods for their system. Thus forcing them to have to buy from Bethesda's service, when the time comes. So after the many years all of you have spent building up the modding community and providing invaluable resources, Bethesda is here to take advantage of everyone's hard work. With this they took the same approach that Steam first did, which was a huge mistake. They are attempting to make the system completely automatic to save money, so they don't have to hire additional staff. This of course will not work and instead of learning from others mistakes, they'll just make the same ones again.

Also I would just like to add that if they have an incompetent system in place, they can then keep the mods up for longer and so with paid modding earn more money. Just some food for thought.

Therobwil wrote: that is F'ing terrifying... maybe I should be against the 'Special Edition' rather than neutral about it.

Chasenyx wrote: That would actually make a lot of sense, I felt this with Fallout 4, or it's my imagination, that they gave us a somewhat unfisnished project and counted on the modders to do it right.
I mean it just felt like that for me.
Now with other people doing the actual work Bethesda should do, like bug fixing and developing good content, they still see this as a gold ore.
I understand console useres for their want/need of mods, because they're a very good addition and it shames me to think that Bethasda would use this to their benefit. I always thought very highly of them, which sadly started to change with the whole 'paid-modding on steam' fiasco.
That was some very good food for my thoughts, thank you for sharing your opinion :)

Arthmoor wrote: Conspiracy theories are lame.

Ameisenfutter wrote: He has a point tho. Imo, Fallout4 would not be a very good game without mods, compared to state-of-the-art-titles like Witcher3.

/ Far Harbor for example does in no way compare to Dawnguard or Dragonborn, considering storytelling, playtime and level design. Fallout4 seems to be in many ways not that well done and I really can't loose the feeling Bethesda has been a little lazy on that one.

Mitigate wrote: Agreed. Those who disagree tend to be mod authors who wish to sellout and try to make a buck themselves at the expense of the community.

Bethesda making lazy games and DLC from now on will only increase the modding community's activity and lead to more profit when they drop the paid mods bomb.

steam has no fault, the workshop is a service for every software house who ask for it.

[Rethrain]

In response to post #40924330. #41026360 is also a reply to the same post.

sp0tty wrote: 2 solutions:

1) Add a "release" feature to creation kit that generates a locked plugin that can't be modified. In-game browser shows author credits from metadata in plugin, not file uploader. Mod author never distributes the dev/unlocked version. Probably impossible to make it foolproof though. On the other hand, who's going to bother cracking a plugin to change the credits when their intent is to make it available on console?

2) Every mod author uploads to bethesda.net and nexus. This is maybe what Bethesda expected people to do?

mancika wrote: Hm. What I download here, I also edit for my tastes. If plugins were locked I would not dl any, or would just dl it to get the idea/method how to do things. I do the secong choice a lot, even integrating specific changes into my main plugin.

So modding-wise
1., it would take me a lot of time to reproduce the same things IF even having the knowledge/tools (overhaul mods...!)
2., i would not do the changes/additions even if i have the knowledge cuz you just simply cannot do as much as 40 or a 100 people for your game.
3., what is locked will be cracked open, as we all know. The end result is the same.

It's true, I make changes to the mods I download as well. Frankly, it's the things that keep me from actually requesting anything. If I can change it myself. Failing that, I simply do not use the mod, depending on the problem it/I have. I had to do these things in the past, and I believe I shall continue doing so.

As for your second point. I suppose it's a mixture of them not minding/caring where the mods come from as long as they are there. Probably negligence combined with not knowing how to handle things. It's not nice, but covering your bases seems to be the way. Edited August 6, 2016 by Rethrain

[patrickmurphy]

I don't get how they could do paid modding, it would get more ridiculous than in app purchases, because who decides what something's worth? Maybe all are the same price, but the surge of s#*! content would stagger, Maybe the modders do themselves, but then someone who uploads a power armor retexture could decide to charge 20$, and then the guy who made true storms, who is probably a decent human, would feel completely slighted because he actually decided to charge what it's worth, and then gets less revenue for his work, work that probably took him considerable time, than content that's much simpler and took much less time to create. Train wreck, the entire concept.

 

Also, I'd totally make a shirt with the forever free logo on it but I've never made a mod I'd feel like a poser, but I love the concept behind it, illustrating the utter terrible foresight and ignorance by a major corporation leading to a standup by an entire community. Super badass. Not that I'm anti establishment but they have so many employees, it's ass backwards how stupid and childish they've been, blundering is the word.

Edited August 6, 2016 by patrickmurphy

[madamimadam]

You have my support.

[WightMage]

In response to post #41252700.

madamimadam wrote: You have my support.

And my bow!