On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[ManleySteele]

In response to post #39533645.

jet4571 wrote: Different topic so new post...

"End time-out, resume play." About just above that.

I am against consoles in general. Not the users, they are just someone who enjoys games. I am against consoles themselves because they are holding back game technology and in a sense computer hardware across the board as well. Last gen consoles lasted what 10 years? 10 years of the same outdated when first released hardware? Back in the 90's PC gaming pushed hardware makers to make faster more powerful hardware and the advances were fast paced and meaningful to keep up with new games. Even Intel was advertising and upgrading because of games. Running the latest game the fastest was a selling point even if it was for an office typewriter replacement. Then comes cross platform games and all that came to a slow crawl. No more was a PC game pushing the PC to it's limits and had so much more to show if the PC was better. Today even the minimum specs are not correct.

I have an I7 920 and a GTX 750TI and can run vanilla FO4 at ultra settings even without the shadow problem Gopher was having on his much better hardware(I so wanted to tease him too). If November 2016 was 1997 instead and I had the same aged hardware and FO4 was just released with specs similar to any game of the era I wouldn't even be able to see the main menu. Yet I can play on ultra settings today? That is because of the last generation of consoles and now the current generation being outdated hardware before they are released. Consoles have held back advances in gaming and in hardware by 10 or more years. That's not the console users fault, it is Microsoft and Sony's fault.

Designing and producing a more capable console is a trivial challenge if we're just discussing the engineering aspects of the exercise. The problems don't appear until you start trying to sell them for a profit. Never forget that all these business entities are for profit businesses. They have to sell seats to stay in business. The game developers have the same problem. They have to sell to the predominate seats first and to everyone else afterwards. That everyone else is us.

It's easy to forget that the only hardware on sale that is dedicated to gaming first are the consoles. Everything else is designed for some other problem domain. Lucky for us, they're also good for gaming. A console that would push games they way we want them pushed would have to be priced between $1000 and $2000. You couldn't sell enough to stay in business.

[JimmyRJump]

In response to post #39573645.

ravernware wrote: why the us vs them? The issue is about pirating of content to Bethesda.net for console mods, and Bethesda.net either not being sufficiently prepared or failing a fudiciary responsibility to protect the mod authors rights under said license agreement. I have no issue what ever with console users. Why should I? The Zenimax suits who have no clue as to game dev or modding, and better get that 3am wake up call fast.
PC or console.. come on guys/ladies.. really?

It's not about "us vs them" at all (impossible also, since mods are made on PC and shared among console users by PC users), as clearly stated at the beginning of the article. It's basically not even against Bethesda's incapability to timely respond to mod thieves uploading content to Bethesda.net, but rather about Bethesda starting with a website to upload the said mods without putting in place an adequate framework first. That's where the shoe wrings.

If and when Betheda had done a proper job -and they had the time to do so, after all, it's been almost 15 years- then it would never have come this far, or, at least, things would have been nipped in the bud...

[Tahnval]

In response to post #39567530. #39569960, #39571210, #39573305 are all replies on the same post.

Sackroad wrote: I'd like to start off by saying that I play Fallout 4 on the PS4. I'm a console user. But I've also played Skyrim and FONV on PC and have used mods. And all I'd really like to say is I have the upmost respect for the modmakers out there. They throw their creative talents into their work and produce excellent DLC-quality content. I've seen so many high quality mods and I've enjoyed them. For modmakers to create these and put them out there, for free even, for other people to enjoy.. It truly is a wonderful thing.

That's why this situation with bethesda.net has me worried and disappointed. My PC isn't the best for gaming, which is why I got the PS4 to begin with. When I heard that Fallout 4 would eventually get mods on consoles, I got excited. I had thought I would just have to go with whatever extra content Bethesda produced, which isn't bad but after having used mods in other games, is a step down. But then with the mod thefts, and people getting angry at consoles, it seemed like mods on console would dry up before I got the chance to use them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to cry about that. I understand wholeheartedly why mod creators are upset. This is their hard work being stolen, and often they're being openly taunted on top of that. It's horrible, and it makes me mad. All I ask is that you keep in mind that not all of us console users are like this. Some of us know the hard work that all of you put into your mods. Some of us greatly respect it, and all we want is the chance to enjoy your hard work LEGITIMATELY. Some of us refuse to download a stolen mod. I for one refuse. I won't put my enjoyment ahead of someone else's efforts.

So.. try to remember. There are those of us on console who support you mod makers out there. Your efforts aren't in vain. Please give us the chance to show that we will only support LEGIT mods. You may be pleasantly surprised. Thank you for your time.

ravernware wrote: well said.. imo
Nuff said? I think we all get the point. Dark0ne has poked the nest, as he should have. The bees are buzzing. Buzz little bees buzz. Busy busy little bees.

phantompally76 wrote: Yep, and those bees are going to end up stinging this community to death.

ravernware wrote: how so? please enlighten us.

The easiest and most profitable way for Bethesda to respond is to ban mods from all sources other than Bethesda. Big businesses tend to like a monopoly and they tend to be more geared towards simple solutions using their lawyers than complex solutions. If Bethesda decides there's a problem with modding, bringing all modding under their control will be the obvious solution to them. It's conceptually simple, they're already geared up for it and it increases their power. It also positions them to make more profit more easily from paid mods. There would still be dodgy pirate sites and torrents, but there wouldn't be any reliable, safe, easy to use source for mods. Some customers would complain...but they'd comply. Now would be the best time to do it, since the necessary infrastructure is all in place and a large proportion of their customers aren't used to mods and therefore aren't used to anything better. For console gamers, any mods at all is a new thing and a good thing. So now's the best time to make sure they're don't expect anything as good as Nexus and PC modding in general.

So that's how the bees could sting this community to death...and probably will.

[Onikami78]

Howdy y'all! Grateful console user here. Just made a new acct after reading this article. I have also been playin Bethesda games since morrowind on original Xbox and have loved them ever since. I know i'm a minority here and am thick skinned so trolls beware! First, I gotta say spot on with the article. Second, WHEN paid mods come out I will stop playin Bethesda games. I love them to death but I refuse to pay THEM for YOUR work. I am willing to pay certain mod authors for their work however, as long as it is good work and they bring it to console. I'm also willing to test and write for MA's that need the assistance in such things. I am a published historian and am willing to provide proof of work to those that email me and can stand academic work. I am writing this from a console and only have a mac book for a computer so bear with me in the computer area as I was trained to write on a piece of paper!( I know it's horribly old of me but I'm old and my background in history requires the use of my hands so I tend to make first and second drafts in paper then commit to typing later. Just my process, sorry for the trouble) If you have an xbox 1 by chance you can PM me as GT: Onikami78 (of course) and send friend requests if you see fit.

[Tahnval]

In response to post #39533645. #39575050 is also a reply to the same post.

jet4571 wrote: Different topic so new post...

"End time-out, resume play." About just above that.

I am against consoles in general. Not the users, they are just someone who enjoys games. I am against consoles themselves because they are holding back game technology and in a sense computer hardware across the board as well. Last gen consoles lasted what 10 years? 10 years of the same outdated when first released hardware? Back in the 90's PC gaming pushed hardware makers to make faster more powerful hardware and the advances were fast paced and meaningful to keep up with new games. Even Intel was advertising and upgrading because of games. Running the latest game the fastest was a selling point even if it was for an office typewriter replacement. Then comes cross platform games and all that came to a slow crawl. No more was a PC game pushing the PC to it's limits and had so much more to show if the PC was better. Today even the minimum specs are not correct.

I have an I7 920 and a GTX 750TI and can run vanilla FO4 at ultra settings even without the shadow problem Gopher was having on his much better hardware(I so wanted to tease him too). If November 2016 was 1997 instead and I had the same aged hardware and FO4 was just released with specs similar to any game of the era I wouldn't even be able to see the main menu. Yet I can play on ultra settings today? That is because of the last generation of consoles and now the current generation being outdated hardware before they are released. Consoles have held back advances in gaming and in hardware by 10 or more years. That's not the console users fault, it is Microsoft and Sony's fault.

ManleySteele wrote: Designing and producing a more capable console is a trivial challenge if we're just discussing the engineering aspects of the exercise. The problems don't appear until you start trying to sell them for a profit. Never forget that all these business entities are for profit businesses. They have to sell seats to stay in business. The game developers have the same problem. They have to sell to the predominate seats first and to everyone else afterwards. That everyone else is us.

It's easy to forget that the only hardware on sale that is dedicated to gaming first are the consoles. Everything else is designed for some other problem domain. Lucky for us, they're also good for gaming. A console that would push games they way we want them pushed would have to be priced between $1000 and $2000. You couldn't sell enough to stay in business.

My issue with consoles is that they dominate game development and always for the worse. Simplified everything and badly implemented and heavily limited controls are the norm now and that bothers me more than graphics designed for outdated and cut-down hardware and PC ports that are not just unoptimised but actually counter-optimised as a result of being designed for consoles.

It won't change, though, because developing for a console is inherently much easier and therefore much cheaper because you're developing for one set of hardware running one set of software. A PS4 is a PS4. Pick 10,000 PCs and you are very unlikely to find any 2 the same in all relevant ways. Then you have to make the game scale to at least some extent across hardware with wildly different capabilities, which at the very least means adding the ability to change lots of options. You have to add the ability to use various input devices and to rebind controls. Much easier to develop for console and then make a console game work to a degree on PC and rely on the power of a PC to brute force through the inefficiencies. Or not bother at all. Consoles will be a bigger market because they're cheaper to buy and simpler to use, which is what people usually want with most things.

Which is why it's not consoles holding back hardware development. It's the money that large numbers of people are willing and able to spend on gaming. Companies could make consoles with relatively new high midrange hardware, but there's never going to be a significant market for spending US$ 1000 on a new console every 18 months.

The main thing stopping me using a console isn't the hardware limitations of a console itself, though. It's the input devices. I have a console controller for my PC (literally - it's an Xbox 360 controller). I use it for racing games sometimes because I'm not into them enough to buy a wheel and a joystick is better than a keyboard for steering. Other than that, it's an absymal input device in comparison to a mouse and keyboard. Far less precise, far less versatile, far less comfortable.

[ravernware]

In response to post #39573645. #39575105 is also a reply to the same post.

ravernware wrote: why the us vs them? The issue is about pirating of content to Bethesda.net for console mods, and Bethesda.net either not being sufficiently prepared or failing a fudiciary responsibility to protect the mod authors rights under said license agreement. I have no issue what ever with console users. Why should I? The Zenimax suits who have no clue as to game dev or modding, and better get that 3am wake up call fast.
PC or console.. come on guys/ladies.. really?

JimmyRJump wrote: It's not about "us vs them" at all (impossible also, since mods are made on PC and shared among console users by PC users), as clearly stated at the beginning of the article. It's basically not even against Bethesda's incapability to timely respond to mod thieves uploading content to Bethesda.net, but rather about Bethesda starting with a website to upload the said mods without putting in place an adequate framework first. That's where the shoe wrings.

If and when Betheda had done a proper job -and they had the time to do so, after all, it's been almost 15 years- then it would never have come this far, or, at least, things would have been nipped in the bud...

Jimmy.. your second paragraph seems to agree with my and others points. Thank you/
I'd say more but this entire thread is getting really really old. Time to put the Elephant to bed??

[eltesco]

I think this situation can open the Pandora's box for modding Bethesda games. I can imagine the trouble of the mod authors trying to claim their work. Complaining with DMCA every once in a while to Bethesda.net reporting system because, some new twerp uploaded their work there, caused by "upload mod here" practice! Don't forget that some mod authors use even mods in their portfolios. Edited June 20, 2016 by eltesco

[fallout3123]

In response to post #39533645. #39575050, #39575985 are all replies on the same post.

jet4571 wrote: Different topic so new post...

"End time-out, resume play." About just above that.

I am against consoles in general. Not the users, they are just someone who enjoys games. I am against consoles themselves because they are holding back game technology and in a sense computer hardware across the board as well. Last gen consoles lasted what 10 years? 10 years of the same outdated when first released hardware? Back in the 90's PC gaming pushed hardware makers to make faster more powerful hardware and the advances were fast paced and meaningful to keep up with new games. Even Intel was advertising and upgrading because of games. Running the latest game the fastest was a selling point even if it was for an office typewriter replacement. Then comes cross platform games and all that came to a slow crawl. No more was a PC game pushing the PC to it's limits and had so much more to show if the PC was better. Today even the minimum specs are not correct.

I have an I7 920 and a GTX 750TI and can run vanilla FO4 at ultra settings even without the shadow problem Gopher was having on his much better hardware(I so wanted to tease him too). If November 2016 was 1997 instead and I had the same aged hardware and FO4 was just released with specs similar to any game of the era I wouldn't even be able to see the main menu. Yet I can play on ultra settings today? That is because of the last generation of consoles and now the current generation being outdated hardware before they are released. Consoles have held back advances in gaming and in hardware by 10 or more years. That's not the console users fault, it is Microsoft and Sony's fault.

ManleySteele wrote: Designing and producing a more capable console is a trivial challenge if we're just discussing the engineering aspects of the exercise. The problems don't appear until you start trying to sell them for a profit. Never forget that all these business entities are for profit businesses. They have to sell seats to stay in business. The game developers have the same problem. They have to sell to the predominate seats first and to everyone else afterwards. That everyone else is us.

It's easy to forget that the only hardware on sale that is dedicated to gaming first are the consoles. Everything else is designed for some other problem domain. Lucky for us, they're also good for gaming. A console that would push games they way we want them pushed would have to be priced between $1000 and $2000. You couldn't sell enough to stay in business.

Tahnval wrote: My issue with consoles is that they dominate game development and always for the worse. Simplified everything and badly implemented and heavily limited controls are the norm now and that bothers me more than graphics designed for outdated and cut-down hardware and PC ports that are not just unoptimised but actually counter-optimised as a result of being designed for consoles.

It won't change, though, because developing for a console is inherently much easier and therefore much cheaper because you're developing for one set of hardware running one set of software. A PS4 is a PS4. Pick 10,000 PCs and you are very unlikely to find any 2 the same in all relevant ways. Then you have to make the game scale to at least some extent across hardware with wildly different capabilities, which at the very least means adding the ability to change lots of options. You have to add the ability to use various input devices and to rebind controls. Much easier to develop for console and then make a console game work to a degree on PC and rely on the power of a PC to brute force through the inefficiencies. Or not bother at all. Consoles will be a bigger market because they're cheaper to buy and simpler to use, which is what people usually want with most things.

Which is why it's not consoles holding back hardware development. It's the money that large numbers of people are willing and able to spend on gaming. Companies could make consoles with relatively new high midrange hardware, but there's never going to be a significant market for spending US$ 1000 on a new console every 18 months.

The main thing stopping me using a console isn't the hardware limitations of a console itself, though. It's the input devices. I have a console controller for my PC (literally - it's an Xbox 360 controller). I use it for racing games sometimes because I'm not into them enough to buy a wheel and a joystick is better than a keyboard for steering. Other than that, it's an absymal input device in comparison to a mouse and keyboard. Far less precise, far less versatile, far less comfortable.

in a way i like that becuase if it werent for consoles you would have to buy new hardware every year

[Namea]

In response to post #39567530. #39569960, #39571210, #39573305, #39575275 are all replies on the same post.

Sackroad wrote: I'd like to start off by saying that I play Fallout 4 on the PS4. I'm a console user. But I've also played Skyrim and FONV on PC and have used mods. And all I'd really like to say is I have the upmost respect for the modmakers out there. They throw their creative talents into their work and produce excellent DLC-quality content. I've seen so many high quality mods and I've enjoyed them. For modmakers to create these and put them out there, for free even, for other people to enjoy.. It truly is a wonderful thing.

That's why this situation with bethesda.net has me worried and disappointed. My PC isn't the best for gaming, which is why I got the PS4 to begin with. When I heard that Fallout 4 would eventually get mods on consoles, I got excited. I had thought I would just have to go with whatever extra content Bethesda produced, which isn't bad but after having used mods in other games, is a step down. But then with the mod thefts, and people getting angry at consoles, it seemed like mods on console would dry up before I got the chance to use them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to cry about that. I understand wholeheartedly why mod creators are upset. This is their hard work being stolen, and often they're being openly taunted on top of that. It's horrible, and it makes me mad. All I ask is that you keep in mind that not all of us console users are like this. Some of us know the hard work that all of you put into your mods. Some of us greatly respect it, and all we want is the chance to enjoy your hard work LEGITIMATELY. Some of us refuse to download a stolen mod. I for one refuse. I won't put my enjoyment ahead of someone else's efforts.

So.. try to remember. There are those of us on console who support you mod makers out there. Your efforts aren't in vain. Please give us the chance to show that we will only support LEGIT mods. You may be pleasantly surprised. Thank you for your time.

ravernware wrote: well said.. imo
Nuff said? I think we all get the point. Dark0ne has poked the nest, as he should have. The bees are buzzing. Buzz little bees buzz. Busy busy little bees.

phantompally76 wrote: Yep, and those bees are going to end up stinging this community to death.

ravernware wrote: how so? please enlighten us.

Tahnval wrote: The easiest and most profitable way for Bethesda to respond is to ban mods from all sources other than Bethesda. Big businesses tend to like a monopoly and they tend to be more geared towards simple solutions using their lawyers than complex solutions. If Bethesda decides there's a problem with modding, bringing all modding under their control will be the obvious solution to them. It's conceptually simple, they're already geared up for it and it increases their power. It also positions them to make more profit more easily from paid mods. There would still be dodgy pirate sites and torrents, but there wouldn't be any reliable, safe, easy to use source for mods. Some customers would complain...but they'd comply. Now would be the best time to do it, since the necessary infrastructure is all in place and a large proportion of their customers aren't used to mods and therefore aren't used to anything better. For console gamers, any mods at all is a new thing and a good thing. So now's the best time to make sure they're don't expect anything as good as Nexus and PC modding in general.

So that's how the bees could sting this community to death...and probably will.

Bethesda would never do that. They know they'd never sell games again. Their business model for years has been "Release broken game with great promise and let the modders fix it and live up to that promise."

[MJR]

I don't generally read whatever gets posted on this site, but I've come across two official statements now and you, sir, seem like quite a respectable and smart fellow. I couldn't have said all this better myself (in fact, I hadn't even thought of most of the things stated here).