On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[MarchinBunny]

 

In response to post #39598745.

 

 

 

Brabbit1987 wrote:

Technically speaking, if someone makes an iron man mod, that is against copyright. There are many mods here that are technically against copyright. Even fanart is against copyright.

 

The thing is though, companies just generally allow it, because it would do more harm than good to try and enforce it. In fact, for them it's actually beneficial to allow it. Copyright laws are complicated and not always 100% followed to a T. The fact is, most people here have broken copyright laws in some way. Some more than others. There was a big talk about copyright at a past comicon. It's a pretty interesting video to hear since it goes over many things we do that are technically against copyright.

The whole legal argument is kind of amusing considering this site has thousands of mods uploaded here which break copy-write laws and whatnot by containing or using the likeness of other IPs without permission.

That's not really how copyright laws work.

The thing is just because they don't care or don't think it's worth expending the effort to try and stop doesn't make it any less immoral or illegal.

 

I could make that Iron man mod without permission to use his likeness which is technically infringing the owners intellectual property rights and upload it here and not only would that be ok but the community would applaud my effort and praise me for it (if the mod was good). Yet then when someone re-uploads it without my permission somewhere else they all have pitchforks ready to burn someone alive and start screaming about how it's illegal and immoral.

 

If people are going to try to take the legal and moral stance and want to be taken seriously they really need to do it consistently and wholeheartedly.

 

Just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that other people using mod authors mods without permission is ok just that I find the double standard funny.

 

I agree, I actually have already mention the exact same thing earlier in this discussion. It is a double standard, but people just don't like to admit that it is, especially when it's about their own property.

 

A lot of companies also get flak from fans for standing up for their copyrights.

 

But, from what I have been told here by a moderator, it's damaging to speak the truth. XD

[kevindad1]

In response to post #39596365.

chuckdm wrote: Just a few things I'd like to add to this:

1) That consoles are inferior (they are) to PCs is indeed completely and totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. That does NOT make it an invalid issue, but it does mean that nobody should've brought that unrelated, even if valid, discussion into this one.

As long as it's here, though, (yes I'm being hypocritical, but I'm sorry, this has to be said) I just want to say one simple thing: you can buy a gaming laptop that outperforms all 3 consoles combined for under $700. Just about the one and only reason, historically, to buy a console was that it was cheaper. Now they're not. (Both major controllers are Bluetooth so they work with PCs, obvious graphics superiority, etc. Not going to rehash everything else here.)

In short, I'm not an advocate for PCs because they're better. I'm an advocate for PCs because consoles are ripping off consumers. People are paying more money for an inferior product. In other words, I'm trying to protect console players from themselves. You don't have to like the fact that I'm forcing you to wear a seatbelt right now - you'll like it when you aren't a grease spot on the pavement later.

But, yes, that isn't relevant to the problem at hand. It's still a valid discussion, but ok, this really isn't the place. (I love you my console brothers and sisters! I'm only trying to help you!)

2) Mods make money. Not all mods, and not a lot of money, but Nexus has a donation feature. I haven't actually looked at Bethesda.net (I have no reason to) but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the donation feature isn't one they offer.

And that's a problem. Credit and kudos and warm fuzzy feelings aside, I'm sure at least a dozen mod authors on the Nexus make enough money from their creations to fuel several late night coffee binges, and I've read enough mod descriptions (and written enough PHP in my youth) to know that's when the really awesome, creative stuff happens. In a very real, palpable sense, mod theft isn't just stealing the recognition these authors deserve, it's literally taking cold, hard cash out of their pockets.

And who knows? Maybe that $10 or so is the difference between them being able to sink another 20 hours into an awesome armor or weapon, or having to go get a second job and not having the time. I'd hate to be deprived of the next Nuka Gear or Commonwealth Shorts because the author had to go get another job to pay the bills, when just 2 or 3 generous people who found their mods through Nexus could;ve made a difference.

3) This problem really began in April. I still don't have the CK, because I refuse to make yet another account on yet another web site, theft or not. The day we had to go create an account with Bethesda to download the CK, THAT'S then the uproar should've started. That's when this turned south. It was the red herring we all missed.

And here's the scary part: now I'm probably going to have to find a way to pirate a copy of the CK just to make mods for a game I bought and paid good money for the season pass for. I mean, now that the true purpose of Bethesda.net has been revealed, I'm less annoyed at having to create yet another umpteenth login on yet another web site, and more straight up too mad at them to consider it...but those are my choices now. Either sign up for a site I hate on principal, or pirate a utility for a game I actually bought. How messed up is that?

You don't want to use the CK because you have to sign up for Bethesda's website? That makes no sense.

[kevindad1]

In response to post #39597035.

Aragingmonk wrote: "And now, after 14 years of looking after yourself, and doing extremely well, your father has suddenly come back. You’re left with a lot of questions; why did they leave in the first place? Why are they back now? What are their motives? "

Towards the bottom of the article the motives were addressed, PAID MODS!

That is the only reason Bethesda is getting involved and it is B.S.. They do not care about this community and that is obvious. We ask (beg) for TES6 and they give us (rather, console users) a remaster of a game we have worn out several times over. They keep adding to ESO when that P.O.S. will never truly be an Elder Scrolls.

"We have two new big games in the works! No it is not TES6, why would we do that?" Yes, I have a love hate relationship with Bethesda. They are like that girl that you are really attracted to but know you will regret it in the morning. lol

Oh please. We waited 7 years for Fallout 4. You can wait more for ES6.

[Kraynic]

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690, #39518820, #39519085, #39519310, #39519400, #39519465, #39519585, #39519975, #39520120, #39598220 are all replies on the same post.

bigdeano89 wrote: Sigh, the ignorant comments coming from some folks here is unbelieveable, to the point that I think you must either be children or trolls to have this mindset. Most of these people even admit to "not reading the whole article" but somehow their insight has to be more valuable than the damn article you are commenting on.

Heres the gist, shrunk down into a smaller size so you can understand. Mod authors DO own their mods, Bethesda and Zenimax own the LICENSE to it (and thats ONLY if made with the creation kit. If they make them by any other means, Zenimax dont own anything). That license does NOT extend to users. That does NOT give anyone the right to take and upload the mods without permission from the authors, END.OF.STORY.

No more of this BS "I own the game, I can do what I want", no, you cant, and you are childish or a troll if you believe thats true.

Brabbit1987 wrote: I am of the argument that, while I don't agree with mods being stolen, I think it's better to make it less of a big deal, because it's only making the situation worse.

Remember what the music industry did back when piracy was rather new? There are always going to be people who do not respect your wishes. Also, in many cases, it's not even someone who is trying to be disrespectful, it's just someone who enjoys your content and wants to share it with others.

Now, you can do what the music industry did and try your best to prevent piracy. Or you can accept that there is very little you can do to stop it entirely and it's probably best to just embrace it and work along with it, rather than against it. If this trend continues with mods on consoles, you can be sure .. eventually we will come to a point where trying to stop your mod from being uploaded will just be impossible unless you don't mind spending most of your time doing take downs.

Again, it's not that I agree with people stealing mods, I just think it's going to come to a point where .. it will be too much work to try and prevent it.

boomerizer wrote: And in my case, I feel the same way Brabbit. Although, it's more because its digital media. Once you upload it to the internet, you sort of lose ownership. You know, its not like you're actually losing anything. And the 'thief' really isn't gaining anything. In fact the only people that benefit from this, are the people that download the mods to their game.

My god, what a travesty! Oh, what a world where people are actually enjoying something on a platform that isn't a PC! *gasp*

Like I've said, repeatedly, if the thief is actually trying to claim ownership (or worse, trying to encourage donation or payment of some sort), yeah, I'd have a problem too. But if its a direct copy/paste upload? C'mon, what the flip are you really losing out on?

BuffHamster wrote: @boomerizer: Apathy, ... awesome. I have some Insurance policies I can sell to you, oh and this bridge I found somewhere near Brooklyn NY.
Accept it, "Buyer Beware" and all that.
You bought a shoddy used car with no warranty? Too bad, accept it.
Oh my, you purchased some food items that have been recalled due to Salmonella contamination? Ah well, you still have that Insurance policy I sold you? Never mind, food poisoning is not covered.
Imitation brand electronics burned your house down? Ah, too bad, that's not covered. Accept it, no, ... embrace it.

My take? Mod Authors have the legal right to be advocates for themselves and the legal right to petition their grievances as loudly as possible, ... accept it.

doomy19 wrote: @Brabbit1987 You're right, it will be too much work to try and prevent it, so the mod authors will do the most simple thing they can, which is to stop making mods because the enjoyment of doing so has been eclipsed by the problems involved. And who benefits from that? Nobody. This is the reality that the community members here understand and the new console people and Bethesda don't, that there is no way to win if everyone isn't respecting the ones creating the content.

boomerizer wrote: Wrong Again. Because now you're bringing money into it. Now I'm at a loss. Because so far, everyone arguing against this mod theft like its genuine piracy, keeps using analogies that bring in money. Currency.

There is no currency in the modding community beyond ego. Beyond namesake.

And if it isn't that, then it's anti-console types. Neither of which are valid, in my opinion.

One is ego stroking, the other is elitism. Both are insanely selfish, which defeats the purpose of the sharing of your mods.

Sharing.

Huh.

Maybe somebody forgot the definition of sharing.

I mean, if you don't want to spread the love, maybe you shouldn't mod. Sounds like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Looking for some glory? Maybe hoping you make such a great mod that Bethesda (or whoevers game you're modding) hires you?

If I made mods, I'd be flattered if it were being redistributed. That meant I did a good thing. That'd mean that people liked what I made.

And, as I've said before, and something that people seem to be forgetting, or not paying attention to:

If the person redistributing it were claiming it as their own, outright-- not just failing to credit, but saying it is THEIRS and THEIRS alone, yeah, I WOULD have a problem. But the fact of the matter is that most "stolen" mods out there, are merely redistributed, without credit or permission.

And I'm sorry, but that is not nefarious. That's not genuine theft. That is not worth the fuss that everyone here is making it out to be. That is simply redistribution. Nobody is losing out on credit/recognition. Nobody is losing money. Nobody is gaining money.

So please, tell me again. Whats the f*#@ing problem?

Brabbit1987 wrote: @doomy19
If that is all their mods are worth to them, than that is on them. They can stop developing mods if they so wish. You know, some people may care at first, but everything moves on and people will simply forget.

Worrying about a mod you made, which you released entirely free, being uploaded in a place where people can download it entirely for free .. is just stressful. It's easier to really not care. It's not exactly the biggest deal in the world.

I am not new to theft either. I am an artist and a game developer, started off a long time ago as a mod developer myself.

It was something I enjoyed, and I expect the same to be true of current mod developers. Anyone can take your mod and upload it anywhere, and there is very little you can do to stop it. So why stress about it at all?

If you are worried about giving support, than just make it clear you only give support for those who get their copy from an official source. If you have a problem with my mod, and you got it from a place I did not upload it, then tough, no support for you.

There are ways to deal with these things without making yourself stressed out.

bigdeano89 wrote: Boomerizer, Dark0ne already stated that it IS piracy, whether it makes money or not is irrelevant, its the intellectual property of the mod author, and no one else. You dont seem to want to read ANYTHING anyone says to you do you? Yes, I have noticed your constant posts trying to defend it. You are exactly the kind of person im talking about.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @bigdeano89

If we are to consider this piracy .. than a lot of things also are piracy that are widely accepted. Let's say you see a drawing that is pretty awesome on deviantart and want to show your friends and share it on facebook. That would then also be considered piracy .. would it not?

You didn't get the authors permission to repost it on facebook .. right?

boomerizer wrote: I only consider it theft, piracy, or whatever /wrong/ in regards to mods when

1) Credit is being attributed to the Thief.

Beyond that, I count the redistribution with or without credit under Fair Use. Specifically, with Credit, but on console mods with limited description character limit, I'm going to also count without proper credit.

To me, that is all it is.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @boomerizer

Well technically it's not fair use, redistributing is against the law whether or not credit is or is not given.
The issue is, copyright laws seem to be so outdated and not used correctly these days that no one knows what is and isn't allowed. No one actually follows them.

If we followed all copyright laws, things would be very different on the internet. That share button that exists on articles, art sites, or what have you .. would not exist. You wouldn't be able to turn your favorite games into wallpaper for your computer. You wouldn't be able to own a fan made website. Technically even the nexus site is breaking a lot of copyright laws.

The reason no one gets sued or gets in trouble is because the companies learned a long time ago, it's more beneficial for them to allow these things and it just is a waste of time to try and prevent it.

There are some companies though who are pretty bad still. Nintendo is one of them.

Kraynic wrote: @Brabbit I did a quick google search for "deviant art permissions". There is a LOT of info there that talks about how things get to that point. That site and how it gets used is a lot different than here, but if you haven't read their own policies on theft, infringement, etc, then you should.

boomerizer wrote: You're right, it is more beneficial. Which is why it blows my mind authors are so gung-ho with this "issue".

s#*!, I love runnin around the wasteland with Captain America's shield. Wish it were at the very least throwable and retrievable, in the way tomahawks were in New Vegas.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @Kraynic

Not sure what their policies has anything to do with what I said.

Kraynic wrote: Their policies deal with whether it is ok to copy things from their site. It is pretty relevant, since it can vary from page to page in the site.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @Kraynic

That isn't how copyright works. For example, if a site has a policy saying you are allowed to download or copy anything from their site, and it contains pirated games, that doesn't mean it's ok to do.

Sites don't determine what is or isn't allowed. The laws do that.

Edit: Copying anything that doesn't belong to you, under pretty much every single circumstance imaginable is against copyright no matter where you do it. Course, I am mostly talking about NA laws,

Liquidacid23 wrote: The whole legal argument is kind of amusing considering this site has thousands of mods uploaded here which break copy-write laws and whatnot by containing or using the likeness of other IPs without permission.

We aren't only talking about works that are copied from somewhere else. There are things that are copies with permission to recreate them here (thinking of some of the Witcher themed gear). There are things that are totally new models and textures. There are new textures or models to go with models or textures in game or created by someone else. Each situation is different.

Deviantart has to deal with this just like the modding community does. They do it on a page by page basis with the permissions laid out by the artist. Some are free to take and alter and do with as you see fit (just as some of the mods here are). Some you can take and post where ever as long as credit comes back (just as some mods here are). Some only allow art out in a pretty restrictive manner because they charge money for it. The point being, deviantart really works things in a very similar way to the Nexus. And that is by allowing the artist to set their own permissions for how the work can be used.

The only difference is that deviantart also has a "watermark" feature if you want to protect your stuff more thoroughly. I doubt that is possible with mods. My point being that every artist (and there is totally original work in some of these mods) should be able to determine to a certain extent what happens to their work. Telling people they shouldn't care about what happens to their work probably isn't going to get much result. And that seems to be pretty much where you draw the line.

[Liquidacid23]

In response to post #39597035. #39600400 is also a reply to the same post.

Aragingmonk wrote: "And now, after 14 years of looking after yourself, and doing extremely well, your father has suddenly come back. You’re left with a lot of questions; why did they leave in the first place? Why are they back now? What are their motives? "

Towards the bottom of the article the motives were addressed, PAID MODS!

That is the only reason Bethesda is getting involved and it is B.S.. They do not care about this community and that is obvious. We ask (beg) for TES6 and they give us (rather, console users) a remaster of a game we have worn out several times over. They keep adding to ESO when that P.O.S. will never truly be an Elder Scrolls.

"We have two new big games in the works! No it is not TES6, why would we do that?" Yes, I have a love hate relationship with Bethesda. They are like that girl that you are really attracted to but know you will regret it in the morning. lol

kevindad1 wrote: Oh please. We waited 7 years for Fallout 4. You can wait more for ES6.

Of course we aren't getting TES6 anytime soon. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of man hours it takes to program enough bugs and glitches to produce a modern TES game? :P Edited June 20, 2016 by Liquidacid23

[iXenite]

 

Technically speaking, if someone makes an iron man mod, that is against copyright. There are many mods here that are technically against copyright. Even fanart is against copyright.

 

The thing is though, companies just generally allow it, because it would do more harm than good to try and enforce it. In fact, for them it's actually beneficial to allow it. Copyright laws are complicated and not always 100% followed to a T. The fact is, most people here have broken copyright laws in some way. Some more than others. There was a big talk about copyright at a past comicon. It's a pretty interesting video to hear since it goes over many things we do that are technically against copyright.

 

 

 

Which makes it De Facto, exactly how it works. Making FanArt or something resemble something does not violate copyright unless you are asking for payment.

[kevindad1]

In response to post #39594090.

boomerizer wrote:

With the Skyrim Special edition paying mods are right around the corner and I get a feeling that this time Beth will ignore everyone. I can't find any other explanation for them having this lousy platform (even I could have coded something better in 2 hours) on their website. If they don't start selling mods with the "new" Skyrim then their next game will surely have them from the get-go.

I'd really like to know where you people are finding these sources of paying-for-mods coming around the corner.

 

Seriously, any legitimate Bethesda sources claiming this to be a thing?

Nope. Just them being pessimistic.

[kevindad1]

In response to post #39567530. #39569960, #39571210, #39573305, #39575275, #39579020, #39582715, #39592505 are all replies on the same post.

Sackroad wrote: I'd like to start off by saying that I play Fallout 4 on the PS4. I'm a console user. But I've also played Skyrim and FONV on PC and have used mods. And all I'd really like to say is I have the upmost respect for the modmakers out there. They throw their creative talents into their work and produce excellent DLC-quality content. I've seen so many high quality mods and I've enjoyed them. For modmakers to create these and put them out there, for free even, for other people to enjoy.. It truly is a wonderful thing.

That's why this situation with bethesda.net has me worried and disappointed. My PC isn't the best for gaming, which is why I got the PS4 to begin with. When I heard that Fallout 4 would eventually get mods on consoles, I got excited. I had thought I would just have to go with whatever extra content Bethesda produced, which isn't bad but after having used mods in other games, is a step down. But then with the mod thefts, and people getting angry at consoles, it seemed like mods on console would dry up before I got the chance to use them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to cry about that. I understand wholeheartedly why mod creators are upset. This is their hard work being stolen, and often they're being openly taunted on top of that. It's horrible, and it makes me mad. All I ask is that you keep in mind that not all of us console users are like this. Some of us know the hard work that all of you put into your mods. Some of us greatly respect it, and all we want is the chance to enjoy your hard work LEGITIMATELY. Some of us refuse to download a stolen mod. I for one refuse. I won't put my enjoyment ahead of someone else's efforts.

So.. try to remember. There are those of us on console who support you mod makers out there. Your efforts aren't in vain. Please give us the chance to show that we will only support LEGIT mods. You may be pleasantly surprised. Thank you for your time.

ravernware wrote: well said.. imo
Nuff said? I think we all get the point. Dark0ne has poked the nest, as he should have. The bees are buzzing. Buzz little bees buzz. Busy busy little bees.

phantompally76 wrote: Yep, and those bees are going to end up stinging this community to death.

ravernware wrote: how so? please enlighten us.

Tahnval wrote: The easiest and most profitable way for Bethesda to respond is to ban mods from all sources other than Bethesda. Big businesses tend to like a monopoly and they tend to be more geared towards simple solutions using their lawyers than complex solutions. If Bethesda decides there's a problem with modding, bringing all modding under their control will be the obvious solution to them. It's conceptually simple, they're already geared up for it and it increases their power. It also positions them to make more profit more easily from paid mods. There would still be dodgy pirate sites and torrents, but there wouldn't be any reliable, safe, easy to use source for mods. Some customers would complain...but they'd comply. Now would be the best time to do it, since the necessary infrastructure is all in place and a large proportion of their customers aren't used to mods and therefore aren't used to anything better. For console gamers, any mods at all is a new thing and a good thing. So now's the best time to make sure they're don't expect anything as good as Nexus and PC modding in general.

So that's how the bees could sting this community to death...and probably will.

Namea wrote: Bethesda would never do that. They know they'd never sell games again. Their business model for years has been "Release broken game with great promise and let the modders fix it and live up to that promise."

MJR wrote: @Namea: That's just not true. Bethesda's games have sold a ton on consoles even before any of them had mod support (on consoles). Even if Bethesda killed modding completely, in all forms, their games would keep selling, and it would happen even on PC. PC numbers would suffer, but personally I doubt it would be by a large amount.

Derrick93 wrote: most of the income come from the pc version, they can't live without milking from it. And about bethesda.net everything is wrong, trying to sell more copy on console(a normal porting sold at 60 dollars after 5 years) with a marketing campaign based on the free work of other people made for themself pisses me off, this is the worst thing i ever see on videogame media, horse pack is nothing compared to bethesda.net.

@Namea Wow. You actually had a point at first. Until you revealed yourself to be one of those "Bethesda relies on modders to fix their games" people.

[Liquidacid23]

In response to post #39600655.

DaddyDirection wrote:

 

Technically speaking, if someone makes an iron man mod, that is against copyright. There are many mods here that are technically against copyright. Even fanart is against copyright.

The thing is though, companies just generally allow it, because it would do more harm than good to try and enforce it. In fact, for them it's actually beneficial to allow it. Copyright laws are complicated and not always 100% followed to a T. The fact is, most people here have broken copyright laws in some way. Some more than others. There was a big talk about copyright at a past comicon. It's a pretty interesting video to hear since it goes over many things we do that are technically against copyright.

 

 

 

Which makes it De Facto, exactly how it works. Making FanArt or something resemble something does not violate copyright unless you are asking for payment.

Uh, no.

[kevindad1]

In response to post #39589525. #39589815, #39590450 are all replies on the same post.

kevindad1 wrote: Pretty much everything has the "release now, fix later" treatment. That's not to say that what you're saying is wrong though.

kevindad1 wrote: And why are people talking about paid mods? Bethesda knows that that failed. Do you really think that they'll attempt that again? How would they make it work anyway.

phantompally76 wrote: The same way EA gets away with charging full price for half a Star Wars: Battlefront and then ransoming the other half as DLC behind a paywall.

Because average gamer$ will purchase them without questioning the legality, morality or stupidity of the software companies.

Paid mods already exist. Some of you just don't realize it yet.

Who said that EA got away with that? Better yet, what does your reply have anything to do with what I said? (Minus the last part, that is obviously not true)