Boycott Beth.net

[TimeLadyKatie]

All right. A boycott. An extreme but probably very efficient way to get Bethesda change what we want them to change in the way they deal (or rather don't deal) with mod authors and their work. For this to work you will need the majority of mod authors to follow suit in a very well organised, synchronised and thought out manner, only a few people removing their mods from beth.net will have no effect if the majority just leaves them up.

 

Well, first we have to find common ground, regardless of what we want in the future with moving to paid mods or not, regardless if we want to support consoles or not. So please, forget about these for a moment, and let's please focus on what unites us instead of arguing over the things that divide us.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming the vast majority of MA's is not happy about the current state of affairs at bethesda.net. The most relevant and common points of conflict are:

 

• the lack of moderation in the forums,
• the nonexistence of it in the mod comments,
• the ability to rate a mod you didn't even download,
• the nvidia contest problems (I added this although most of us didn't even participate, but the amateurish vibe of the whole thing is appalling)
• and of course last but not least the total lack of quickly and efficiently dealing with 'stolen" mods,

 

(feel free to add to this list, these are just the things on top of my mind)

 

Ok, now as you can see this is already a serious common ground of problems we want to see fixed, like yesterday, but unfortunately are not likely to be fixed anytime soon. Yes, I am aware Beth released a road map that is supposed to fix some of these things, but that was like one month ago and nothing changed. Sometimes Gstaff will pop up and type something that could come out of a standard letter you send to your customers to keep them patiently waiting.

 

Now, imho the only way to see this fixed in a timely manner is to effectively boycott (temporarily until we get the majority of our gripes resolved) beth.net and remove the mods from there to provoke an outcry from mod users that will undoubtly get Beth's attention. Imagine a dozen threads per hour with 'where are the mods?' and I can guarantee you action will be taken swiftly.

 

Again, as I said this would only work if the majority of MA's do this in a synchronized and organised manner, we'll have to agree on a timeline, on a person that would be spokesperson (and I'm not candidate thank you) that can communicate clearly and politely our problems to bethesda in a post or mail that would be made public before the boycott effectively starts, let's say we give them two weeks to resolve their errors and then the boycott would be effective.

 

Short of this kind of action, again I reiterate based on common ground, not on our differences in opinions regarding paid modding, consoles and whatnot, I am afraid nothing or barely next to nothing will change at all. This is just my idea and my feelings toward this whole situation that seems to divide, aggravate and generally degrade the atmosphere between MA's greatly, and we don't want that. Tell me what you think.

 

There are a few problems here. First off, there's the fact that by its very nature the modding community is way too individualistic. You're going to face serious collective action problems.

 

Secondly, there's the problem that not all of us actually can agree on the goals. We all do want most of thoseproblems addressed, but there are some who won't be happy unless Beth.net mod hosting ends entirely and there are some among us who are taking a more pragmatic approach of understanding that it takes a lot to time to work out the issues of a new system and doubly so when trying to chart your own course instead of copy someone else's work - this is an amazing life lesson I've gotten by taking on large-scale projects with Fallout 4 instead of the niche writing team or lore consultancy roles I filled in Skyrim; learning to do it yourself is a slow process.

 

And lastly, if we all agreed on why we're doing it, what we want, how we'll work collaboratively and that we do not accept their incremental progress we still would have to agree on who to punish. Both in assigning blame, as I personally only hold NVIDIA responsible for the contest, and in the real effect of who we're hurting. Do we harm Bethesda more, or is it console gamers that are going to bear the weight of this? Because as exemplified by the OP there are more than a few in the PC community who would tell the console gamers to stick it where it's not welcome. And assuming that despite the art versus commerce debate that's come up here (inexplicably), we still are here for the reason of creating and improving art, we are, as artists, supposed to be doing right by our audience at the end of the day, aren't we?

 

I don't always agree with my porky friend Bacon, but I think cooler heads should pervail here because at the end of the day, we should all want Beth.net to eventually succeed. Even if we choose not to use it ourselves, it has the potential to be an asset to the community as a whole. And, ultimately, for our audiences.

 

I am super excited about releasing my stuff for console gamers to play.

 

 

 

The simple fact is, Bethesda.net allows me to reach a bigger audience, so I am very grateful of Bethesda for that even with all the mistakes made along the way. Nobody said progress was easy.

 

That's the most compelling point that I think could be made here. Expanding and better serving an audience even if the early days are rough.

Edited July 16, 2016 by TimeLadyKatie

[Billy1969]

 

There are a few problems here. First off, there's the fact that by its very nature the modding community is way too individualistic. You're going to face serious collective action problems.

 

Secondly, there's the problem that not all of us actually can agree on the goals. We all do want most of thoseproblems addressed, but there are some who won't be happy unless Beth.net mod hosting ends entirely and there are some among us who are taking a more pragmatic approach of understanding that it takes a lot to time to work out the issues of a new system and doubly so when trying to chart your own course instead of copy someone else's work - this is an amazing life lesson I've gotten by taking on large-scale projects with Fallout 4 instead of the niche writing team or lore consultancy roles I filled in Skyrim; learning to do it yourself is a slow process.

 

And lastly, if we all agreed on why we're doing it, what we want, how we'll work collaboratively and that we do not accept their incremental progress we still would have to agree on who to punish. Both in assigning blame, as I personally only hold NVIDIA responsible for the contest, and in the real effect of who we're hurting. Do we harm Bethesda more, or is it console gamers that are going to bear the weight of this? Because as exemplified by the OP there are more than a few in the PC community who would tell the console gamers to stick it where it's not welcome. And assuming that despite the art versus commerce debate that's come up here (inexplicably), we still are here for the reason of creating and improving art, we are, as artists, supposed to be doing right by our audience at the end of the day, aren't we?

 

I don't always agree with my porky friend Bacon, but I think cooler heads should pervail here because at the end of the day, we should all want Beth.net to eventually succeed. Even if we choose not to use it ourselves, it has the potential to be an asset to the community as a whole. And, ultimately, for our audiences.

 

I am super excited about releasing my stuff for console gamers to play.

 

 

 

The simple fact is, Bethesda.net allows me to reach a bigger audience, so I am very grateful of Bethesda for that even with all the mistakes made along the way. Nobody said progress was easy.

 

That's the most compelling point that I think could be made here. Expanding and better serving an audience even if the early days are rough.

 

 

That is precisely why I wrote we have to agree on common grounds, regardless of our differences in opinions about console mods, paid modding etc... we clearly have to discuss about and agree a consensus on what the vast majority of us want changed, my list of points is not set in stone, I merely summed up the complaints I read most here on Nexus and on Beth.net both. Also a boycott is some sort of 'last resort', something we should use only if Bethesda keeps up not listening to valid complaints.

 

So a first step could be making up a list of things we can all agree on that should be changed and submit this, through a designated spokesperson everyone can agree on also and mail/post/contact Bethesda before taking more extreme measures. And these measures should not be taken to promote any other agenda than the improvement of 'working conditions" for the MA's.

[Billy1969]

 

Forum moderation is the death of free speech.

.

mod comment moderation will be abused 99% of the time for removing unwanted comments, usually on simple hooks, like "he was a troll" "he was not constuctive".

Ability to rate without download is a tricky one. Downloading a mod is quick and easy and someone can still downvote it right after the download. Because there is no way to determine whether the user has played it enough. So I guess that is why Beth allowed rating without downloads. Also some mods can be judged by screenshots and videos alone.

About mod theft, I am sure Bethesda ran into issues setting up the system.

 

And I do not support a boycott. Ever. And don't you dare dissing console players. They are my largest crowd.

#notinmyname

 

 

I think you misunderstood me, I am not promoting for the MA's to have total control over the comments as they have here on Nexus, which wouldn't imo not be bad, but my opinion doesn't matter, I try to reach a consensus foremost, but merely that moderators from Bethesda would remove the insults, abuse and other irrelevant comments. Free speech is nice, but it should never be used as excuse for insults and the like.

 

I agree that merely downloading a mod isn't enough to protect MA's from troll ratings, but it would be a first step, and it would require more effort from possible offenders to do their thing, I'm open to suggestions if you have better ideas of course. Judging a mod from screenshots and descriptions alone is not very objective either, I can assure you I could come up with a nice description and take some nice screenshots but deliver a crap mod in less than a day work :) It wouldn't be very fair if I got 5 stars from thousands of users judging only the package and not the content.

 

And the mod theft, yes I can understand Beth got overwhelmed at the start, either by not foreseeing this to happen or by having to little staff to take care of the problem, but they had plenty of time now to rectify the initial fiasco and unfortunately they didn't, imo this is the most important gripe even and should be a priority for them as high up as getting PS4 mods to finally work.

 

Lastly, as I pointed out boycott is an extreme measure, I agree, but sometimes it takes extreme measures to get the change we want.

[lelcat]

 

I think you misunderstood me, I am not promoting for the MA's to have total control over the comments as they have here on Nexus, which wouldn't imo not be bad, but my opinion doesn't matter, I try to reach a consensus foremost, but merely that moderators from Bethesda would remove the insults, abuse and other irrelevant comments. Free speech is nice, but it should never be used as excuse for insults and the like.

That's exactly what you are wrong about. People will use an illdefined rule "insults, abuse and other irrelevant comments" to block anything they don't want. Free speech above everything is the right thing to do. What you want is to politely and with nice words mob people so you can get rid of negative comments.

 

 

I agree that merely downloading a mod isn't enough to protect MA's from troll ratings, but it would be a first step, and it would require more effort from possible offenders to do their thing, I'm open to suggestions if you have better ideas of course. Judging a mod from screenshots and descriptions alone is not very objective either, I can assure you I could come up with a nice description and take some nice screenshots but deliver a crap mod in less than a day work :smile: It wouldn't be very fair if I got 5 stars from thousands of users judging only the package and not the content.

You dont get it, it is impossible to determine if someone played a mod or not. The current system of voting without download is the best. A good mod will float to the top eventually. There is something wrong with your whole setup because you seem to crave telling others what to do and punish them. Also the same as above, you want to have easy to deform rules that can be bent to remove unwanted content. The whole idea of calling someone downvoting a mod a "first offender" tells a lot. You don't get to police manage someone's opinion and hide all of it in a convenient "boycott".

 

 

 

Lastly, as I pointed out boycott is an extreme measure, I agree, but sometimes it takes extreme measures to get the change we want.

I don't want your change.

[Ethreon]

Freedom schmeedom. I saw your "freedom" of speech being abused more times here by the users than by the mod maker. In fact, mostly the users abuses it believing they are free to say whatever they want without consequences. I'll take the ability to moderate my mods, thanks.

 

 

As for your boycott, I couldn't care less. You seem to believe you're achieving anything with that, or that everyone's gonna rally under your revolutionary flag like it's some kind of novel or empowering cause. It ain't, and let's stop pretending we're all gonna rally to battle the windmills.

 

 

Obv the above go to two different people.

[Billy1969]

Oh you know I'm not a revolutionary and I'm not saying a boycott is an empowering cause :) I merely stated my opinion that a boycott, if properly organised, could make some things change for the better. However, I have absolutely neither the time nor the drive, the will or competence to organize something like that, I would merely be a supporter, and in the end I'm pretty sure the whole beth.net thing will implode in it's own incompetence if nothing changes in the foreseeable future with or without a boycott.

 

As for lelcat I won't even make the effort to address you again, you seem to be immune to discussion and reason, instead you even claim the current state of affairs at Beth.net is just fine, and that in itself is mind boggling for most of us. Plus in every post on Nexus since you registered here you are either looking for conflict, stating how the Nexus is in fact a police state that does nothing good (one wonders why you are here in the first place) and more of such nice behavior. For you also it's just a matter of time before you step on the wrong toes once too much and vanish from here as quickly as you came :)

[Arthmoor]

Oh, right, that money stuff again. Always comes back to that... :rolleyes:

You know you can already get New Vegas for like 15 bucks right? That's chump change.

On GoG I could spend that $15 knowing that Bethesda, Obsidian, or Valve can't one day deny me the right to play it since it won't have DRM. I'd gladly drop the money on that even though I didn't like New Vegas very much. I feel strongly enough about DRM issues to vote on it with the only capital they respond to: CASH. I mean, you yourself seem to think that's all that motivates them, so you have to speak the language.

 

That's exactly what you are wrong about. People will use an illdefined rule "insults, abuse and other irrelevant comments" to block anything they don't want. Free speech above everything is the right thing to do. What you want is to politely and with nice words mob people so you can get rid of negative comments.

You have no free speech on a private forum, even one run by a megacorporation.

 

Mod authors having the ability to remove trollish comments from their threads has been a fabulously great thing. Bethesda needs to provide this if for no other reason than to have feature parity with every other platform available to mod authors.

 

You dont get it, it is impossible to determine if someone played a mod or not. The current system of voting without download is the best. A good mod will float to the top eventually. There is something wrong with your whole setup because you seem to crave telling others what to do and punish them. Also the same as above, you want to have easy to deform rules that can be bent to remove unwanted content. The whole idea of calling someone downvoting a mod a "first offender" tells a lot. You don't get to police manage someone's opinion and hide all of it in a convenient "boycott".

It may be impossible to tell if they actually played it or not, but it's very possible to know if the person downloaded it. Do like Nexus does. Insert a timer in between when you download and when you're allowed to give a rating. It all but eliminated troll endorsements here and it would have the same positive effect over there too. I'd rather have 100 ratings from people who took the time than 10000 ratings from a bridage who showed up just to upvote me for who I am.

[Mitigate]

 

Oh, right, that money stuff again. Always comes back to that... :rolleyes:

You know you can already get New Vegas for like 15 bucks right? That's chump change.

On GoG I could spend that $15 knowing that Bethesda, Obsidian, or Valve can't one day deny me the right to play it since it won't have DRM. I'd gladly drop the money on that even though I didn't like New Vegas very much. I feel strongly enough about DRM issues to vote on it with the only capital they respond to: CASH. I mean, you yourself seem to think that's all that motivates them, so you have to speak the language.

 

Of course. I suggested GOG was better because of a lack of DRM but Ethreon said he preferred GOG for the cheaper deals. If it is about a dislike for DRM... Then why support Bethesda in their quest to introduce their own inevitable DRM platform? Of course that is another thing they want from beth.net. It's only a matter of time before joining bethesda.net becomes mandatory in order to play their games. They do only care about money. And mod authors are a way to earn even more money. Apparently they aren't speaking with any of you about their plan, they're just doing what they like. They refused or ignored Dark0ne when he reached out to help them make things better.

 

You are being farmed... Each one of you is just a little Dollar sign. They don't care about our community. They don't care if it gets torn apart. They don't care about the Nexus. They're going to get even richer on your efforts and that is all that matters. You will fix their games for them and keep the money coming in while they just sit back and laugh!

 

We KNOW that is what they want or they wouldn't have jumped right in with paid mods last time!

 

And Arthmoor, when paid mods come back and regardless of the effort you have put in, do you truly agree that Bethesda should make money on bug-fixing patches? Namely, yours? Should they get paid for selling a PATCH? If you get paid for your unofficial patches, Bethesda takes the bigger cut and all for something they as the developers should have made sure was not required in the first place!

 

Is it great that consoles have access to mods? Sure.

 

Is it great that they are becoming the main focus, the majority of users, at least as far as this discussion and beth.net is showing? No. Their inferior tech will cause mod authors to dumb down their work so they can handle it!

 

Do mod authors deserve to be paid for their effort? Yes!

 

Should patch mods come with a price tag that Bethesda gets most of? NO!

 

Is beth.net just causing issues in our community so far? YES! Mod authors are hiding their work for fear of theft and threatening to go beth.net exclusive, especially once paid mods come out. And what is Bethesda doing about it? NOTHING! All that matters to them is that people are using beth.net. The Nexus means NOTHING to them. It is just a place to pillage. Skyrim Special Edition exists solely to capitalize on the massive amount of mods already available for it. Our community has been fine for years! Then Bethesda comes along and claims rights... Interfering in something they don't know anything about. Causing problems where none need be if they just kept out like they used to.

 

 

This is why I have an issue with bethesda.net and why you should too.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Mitigate

[Arthmoor]

Of course. I suggested GOG was better because of a lack of DRM but Ethreon said he preferred GOG for the cheaper deals. If it is about a dislike for DRM... Then why support Bethesda in their quest to introduce their own inevitable DRM platform?

GoG also has indisputably cheaper deals when they run them too, so there's that.

 

You are being farmed... Each one of you is just a little Dollar sign. They don't care about our community. They don't care if it gets torn apart. They don't care about the Nexus. They're going to get even richer on your efforts and that is all that matters. You will fix their games for them and keep the money coming in while they just sit back and laugh!

I'm a pretty cynical person, but clearly not as cynical as you. Your world must be a miserable place.

 

And Arthmoor, when paid mods come back and regardless of the effort you have put in, do you truly agree that Bethesda should make money on bug-fixing patches? Namely, yours? Should they get paid for selling a PATCH? If you get paid for your unofficial patches, Bethesda takes the bigger cut and all for something they as the developers should have made sure was not required in the first place!

If you don't know the answer to this already, you have not been following this community at all.

 

Is beth.net just causing issues in our community so far?

No. Jackass cynical users who like to troll and cause trouble are doing that.

 

This is why I have an issue with bethesda.net and why you should too.

I think you need to lay off the Jet or something.

[Mitigate]

Is beth.net just causing issues in our community so far?

No. Jackass cynical users who like to troll and cause trouble are doing that.

 

This is why I have an issue with bethesda.net and why you should too.

I think you need to lay off the Jet or something.

 

There's no need to resort to insults. You disagree with me, fine. But don't be that person. Being a potential sellout is bad enough.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Mitigate