Would'nt There Be a Bigger Religious Presence in a Post Apocolyptic World?

[Moraelin]

Beth isn't the one who avoided it. Far as I can tell, actually Beth has gone a lot more Xian with it (people at least use "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation in conversation, plus they did have a church of St Monica in FO3) than Interplay did. The Fallout universe they bought from Interplay just seems to favour the Church Of Atom or tribal shamanism.

[montky]

@poorlyaged

thank you for an insightful approach.

I can see how some people might mistake stuff for that. Passion, pre-war education and training, exclusivity...

it is easy enough to conflate a discerning group of people with...

well, other discerning groups that determine who may or may not be a member.

though, the BoS is not the Enclave. and, the BoS is not Stanislaus Braun, the Institute, nor the Borg Collective.

 

I admit, I am not 'the' BoS. Though I can only reflect on what my personal continuity is, from the canon of what is there and what other BoS fans think.

In our discussions of the BoS,

we have to also consider metanarratives, histrionics, and who is telling what stories what hand/appendage -

the BoS have a number of 'no-true-BoS' metaphors.

 

people who were not there, and are not members of the BoS,

do not get to tell 'the authoritative history'. :smile: that would be histrionics, to take 3rd, 4th, 5th hand sources of information

as more authoritative than the 1st hand information.

What if we held the Captain of Yangtze's account of 2077 to be the whole and complete truth of what caused 2077?

how could that be so? 2077 was complicated, and it is one-sided at best to over-simplify that.

the jostling of metanarratives huh.

these third parties are, truth be told, unreliable narrators.

These unreliable narrators would like it if the BoS went away.

so, of course they would put spin on it.

Everything to them can only be understood as 'religion'. (when you have only hammer, all thing begin to resemble nail.)

 

"The BoS confiscated my technology..."

"we only wanted to do unethical and immoral things by force" - said the 'poor'... X02 powerarmor wearing Enclave person, as he is bashing the brains out of a sentient Ghoul.

sure, those are Is/Ought impositions, though the BoS only intervenes in dire situations.

they're not so much moral impositions - they're ethical.

 

The truth is, the BoS is a secular, non-belief thing.

or, non-denominational, and tolerant of it's diverse membership.

sorta like "state religion" of statecraft, and sRFRAs, the first amendment.

 

Those mistakes individuals have made while affiliated with the BoS, do not fully reflect on the BoS herself.

I would very much like to get to know the BoS and that organization's history more,

so as to understand why F01, F02, F03, F0NV are so different, and have altruistic endings for the BoS,

as compared to the stifled endings and options for the BoS in FO4...

the BoS are indistinct from the Enclave in FO4, which is very odd.

 

The BoS acquires assets, though how? is a very good question.

rarely, do they acquire forcibly an original. only hazardous things are 'confiscated'.

more often, a wastelander will have something they are unaware of,

so the BoS will temporarily borrow that item and reverse engineer that item or make a full assay.

Scribes usually do this, as they trade and do not use a Knight's approach.

 

The BoS return the original item to its rightful owner;

for a lot of things, this is the government of the american people, which no longer exists.

(though the Enclave disputes this humorously, as "Pres. J.H.Eden" kavetches).

 

-----

@all

"Is there a copy of the BoS Charter, the Code, the founders' axiom?"

Veronica in FONV and 'Elder' McNamara have a reflection on these, only the second glimpse into the BoS history as told by BoS members themselves in canon

(nuka break also expands more on that). This is also the only BoS authoritative mention of such, and an insight into their internal processes.

for all their appearances, we don't know a lot about the BoS in detail and their internal structure,

nor do we have a full understanding of the White Hat faction of Scribes, or the Circle of Steele and the Council of Steele.

 

I believe the full and complete Code was originally known to all members of the BoS at the time of pre-war and formation. They would have kept copies on encrypted electronic devices (their dog-tags/holotag chip reader) and in hardcopy.

by 2290s, the code is a vital rite of passage and discriminant factor for 'levels' of BoS - squires and adjuncts learn all about it. The Circle of Steele and the High White Hat Scribes know of many different accounts of the BoS history, as they try and find the truth.

Outsiders are easily revealed when they do not know the true Codes.

The Mariposa BoS, and Primate Maxson/First Elder Maxson, the Society of Steele and Council of Steele...

they made the codes, and may have fought the Enclave prior to the war of 2077.

the pre-BoS may have tried to prevent 2077.

(Who is P.A.M. to the BoS? who is P.A.M.'s 'brother'?)

 

Between 2050s and 2280, a lot seems to have changed in some ways, for the BoS and it's internal structure.

From one acephalous group of a few thousand, there are many more BoS members in 2280, potentially in the 10 000+ - 100 000's range.

The BoS has a nation-state, at Maxson in california and Washington, perhaps elsewhere.

One group split into 3 or 4, and has recently undergone some sort of reintegration/amity in FO4.

the demography of the membership of the BoS has changed - initially meritocratic and with representations from many groups,

there was a schism and a period where several offshoots changed among other things,

their recruitment practices, forgetting the true and original guidelines,

and so they came to resemble the Enclave in their demographic compositions and actions.

 

Elder McNamara, The Outcasts and the Central BoS... they are more enclave than BoS,

and forget the lessons of Mariposa, when Maxson looked directly at the Enclave in its full horror,

and said "No. I cannot and will not be a part of this. I defy."

 

Veronica Santangelo is likely directly descended from the BoS of Mariposa.

Veronica, by birthright, may be a member of the Council of Steel, and as such,

Elder McNamara may have interpretted her as a threat to his 'power and authority'. McNamara believed his own twisted version of the Code...

he didn't realize that Council of Steel is not a rank which would exceed his station...

Veronica may have discovered all this, when doing her routine Scribe Duties at that BoS bunker in New Vegas.

She may have been informed by a White Hat Scribe, and advised on potential appeals to the punitive measures imposed after Veronica and her partner's relationship was dissolved forcibly by McNamara (who grossly exceeded his authority and role in regulating the private lives of a fellow member of the BoS where they did no harm). A white hat scribe, who has a very familiar Ron Perlman voice...

a white hat scribe, who asked Veronica where her partner was, and why Veronica was crying.

a white hat scribe, who may have had a history with Veronica, and saw a friend in trouble, because the only person she loved in the entire world,

was put on a suicide mission by the Elder who Veronica was supposed to trust.

Veronica may also have discovered more about the sandstorm camouflage system and the BoS presence at Helios One and the real reasons the BoS is fixated with this part of the mojave.

 

This may have been disconcerting to McNamara on a number of levels, as the BoS have a 'separation of powers' doctrine modeled on

Adam Smith's wealth of nations and Westminster Systems. (eerily similar to Vault Tec and how many Overseers started out and corrupted over time, a exegetical recurring theme to Fallout in general)

Outsider, Initiate,

specialization to

Scribes, Knights, Operations and Mechanics or Leadership.

 

Veronica is a Scribe.

McNamara is a Knight.

Scribes do not tell Knights what to do. Knights do not tell Scribes what to do

 

McNamara and elders in that part of the BoS... they seem to have changed how they

teach the codes, and may have presented altered or redacted codes to BoS members in their care.

Veronica may have uncovered a much larger coverup, or been speaking with people from the

"White Hat" High Scribe faction and the Circle of Steel factions.

outsider regulators, like "Colonel Flag" from the Circle of Steel or the Courier etc,

they would take 10 seconds from basic inquiries to determine that in a heartbeat.

think JAG:BoS edition.

 

So... rather than have their plans foiled or exposed,

McNamara abused his power as Elder, and exiled Veronica,

altered, defaced, and redacted the BoS documents in his care,

and verged very close to "BoS Outcast/Enclave" behavior.

that level of misconduct could be punishable by death...

summary execution is the law of the wasteland, and the punishment for sedition against the BoS.

McNamara is very lucky the BoS follows the true Code, and not the laws of the wasteland.

 

McNamara would be remanded to the Citadel for a formal hearing,

given the very serious nature of his offense.

[DoctorKaizeld]

Master's from 1, where he dies at the end. He lays his base underneath a cathedral, and starts what is plain and simply a cult.

Dang it you're right... I always do that not sure why.

[bmt12]

There was a swamp cult in Fallout 3 and in Fallout New Vegas there were Mormons.

I completely forgot about that, I was honestly surprised that they went there as featuring a real world religion is dangerous enough in PC society but the Mormons are a contentious issue among many of those who would not have any problem with actual religion being portrayed in the game.

[Flowerguy360]

Beth isn't the one who avoided it. Far as I can tell, actually Beth has gone a lot more Xian with it (people at least use "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation in conversation, plus they did have a church of St Monica in FO3) than Interplay did. The Fallout universe they bought from Interplay just seems to favour the Church Of Atom or tribal shamanism.

 

This is wholly untrue. While Interplay largely relied on Tribals and Raider factions to portray religion, they did not shy away from it. Bethesda has, more or less, replaced most tribals with the Children of Atom, which is why there are fewer faiths represented in favor of a singular, larger one, instead of many disparate ones like you might see in a tribal society. This is also because the Children of Atom did not exist before Fallout 3.

 

If you need examples, look only as far as the Vipers, the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Children of the Cathedral, Reavers from Tactics, the Church of the Lost (Ghoul Religion), and as mentioned earlier - the Hubologists. And let us not forget the tribe of Arroyo. And these are just religions from Interplay. Bethesda has come up with their own set of religious factions, probably as a part of making the franchise their own, but also as part of the fact their games take place in an entirely different geographical region. No, NV does not count, because Bethesda did not make that game; they only licensed/published it.

 

Though all of this does beg a question:

How is it that no one has gone and made a Wasteland Religion mod yet?

 

Church pieces & Altars for Settlement Items. New Settler Job as Chaplain (brings in caps, raises happiness). Fun stuff like that.

[Ethreon]

Who says there aren't such mods?

 

And how come NV doesn't count? It counts as much as any other game. They directly reference christians of sorts, while maintaining the old religions in place.

[Flowerguy360]

Who says there aren't such mods?

 

And how come NV doesn't count? It counts as much as any other game. They directly reference christians of sorts, while maintaining the old religions in place.

In the context of Bethesda addressing religion in the Wasteland, NV does not count because Bethesda did not make that game.

 

If anything, it is an extension of Interplay's work, since the entire game is based on content that was originally a part of Project Van Buren (with plenty of extra content not included to create a Denver-based game, while I'm on the subject).

 

So, no, Bethesda does not get credit for the religions in NV, because they made neither the game nor the content from which it was based. Interplay did, and Obsidian finished it. Bethesda just made it available to us.

 

But they do get full credit for FO3 & FO4, because those games were actually made by Bethesda Game Studios.

[Fkemman11]

Who says there aren't such mods?

 

And how come NV doesn't count? It counts as much as any other game. They directly reference christians of sorts, while maintaining the old religions in place.

 

I saw that mod yesterday and it looks great! Just trying to figure out how to work it into my overextended mod list. :thumbsup:

[Ethreon]

There's a variety of tutorials on merging stuff, and workshop is easy, albeit tedious.

[CiderMuffin]

 

Beth isn't the one who avoided it. Far as I can tell, actually Beth has gone a lot more Xian with it (people at least use "Jesus Christ" as an exclamation in conversation, plus they did have a church of St Monica in FO3) than Interplay did. The Fallout universe they bought from Interplay just seems to favour the Church Of Atom or tribal shamanism.

This is wholly untrue. While Interplay largely relied on Tribals and Raider factions to portray religion, they did not shy away from it. Bethesda has, more or less, replaced most tribals with the Children of Atom, which is why there are fewer faiths represented in favor of a singular, larger one, instead of many disparate ones like you might see in a tribal society. This is also because the Children of Atom did not exist before Fallout 3.

 

If you need examples, look only as far as the Vipers, the Followers of the Apocalypse, the Children of the Cathedral, Reavers from Tactics, the Church of the Lost (Ghoul Religion), and as mentioned earlier - the Hubologists. And let us not forget the tribe of Arroyo. And these are just religions from Interplay. Bethesda has come up with their own set of religious factions, probably as a part of making the franchise their own, but also as part of the fact their games take place in an entirely different geographical region. No, NV does not count, because Bethesda did not make that game; they only licensed/published it.

 

Though all of this does beg a question:

How is it that no one has gone and made a Wasteland Religion mod yet?

 

Church pieces & Altars for Settlement Items. New Settler Job as Chaplain (brings in caps, raises happiness). Fun stuff like that.

 

While their name sounds like a cult the followers of the apocalypse aren't a religious group. They're a group that is built on spreading knowledge and resources such as medical aid and food to tribes and settlements with the end goal of being self-sufficient and becoming pacifists.

 

As for religion portrayed in the games while there have been religious groups (like the vipers, the quasi-religious Brotherhood of Steel, the Children of the Cathedral) none of them are that large. Organized and wide spread religions aren't very common because of the harsh nature of the wasteland and how hard it is to move from settlement to settlement. The closest I'd say to a large organized religion as opposed to cults is either Caesar's Legion where Caesar is treated as a god and the Children of Atom. The rest are mostly tribals, isolationists and don't have the resources to spread.

Edited February 21, 2017 by CiderMuffin