Gunboat Diplomacy?

[Harbringe]

 

 

Nothing will happen here. This country is a tornado in a teacup and has been for decades. The power needed to tke out this country militarily would carry over into both China and south Korea. If we have to deal with this through arms there will be so much bloodshed and destruction on both sides, it won't even be funny. The best we can hope for is for the Chinese to become tired of propping this septic tank of a country and the turd who runs it and back a coup or take over the country itself. At least the North Koreans won't be expecting that and they would have to turn their attention away from the south to contend with it. At least then the nukes won't be in the hands of a pint sized time bomb.

 

Really the Chinese Foreign Minister said 9 hours ago that war may be imminent and that there is no wiinners in a war with N Korea.

http://www.rferl.org/a/chinese-fm-says-no-winners-in-nkorea-war/28429546.html

 

With what is happening in the world I wouldn't be so certain of anything. Especially considering its Kim Jong Un who is in charge in N Korea, not exactly a stable individual. And then there is Trump , thats not a good mix.

 

Yes really. There was a reason that President Trump hit Syria while the Chinese president was setting right beside him at diner. There is also a reason that why President Trump didn't call the Chinese on currency manipulation. And please stop looking at President Trump the way he wants you to look at him. The guy is a master manipulater and has lead people around by their noses for decades. Go read "The Art of The Deal"

 

The Chinese spoke about both the North Koreans and they spoke to us. From what I've heard the Chinese threatened North Koreans with stopping the import of oil into NK if they didn't cool their jets.

 

There's more things going on here than just a Carrier task force moving up to the peninsula..

 

 

Oh they are making deals thats for sure and its China that is coming out the winner so far , but what we don't know is are they going to back the removal of Kim Jong Un or are they gonna sit back and see what happens or are they gonna get involved and what will that involvement consist of either pro - con or neutral stance. China can get annoyed at N Korea but they still serve a strategic purpose for the Chinese. The most obvious being they keep western forces away from the Chinese border. I wouldn't count China as being in US/Trump camp , they are in China's camp first and foremost.

[kvnchrist]

 

 

 

Nothing will happen here. This country is a tornado in a teacup and has been for decades. The power needed to tke out this country militarily would carry over into both China and south Korea. If we have to deal with this through arms there will be so much bloodshed and destruction on both sides, it won't even be funny. The best we can hope for is for the Chinese to become tired of propping this septic tank of a country and the turd who runs it and back a coup or take over the country itself. At least the North Koreans won't be expecting that and they would have to turn their attention away from the south to contend with it. At least then the nukes won't be in the hands of a pint sized time bomb.

 

Really the Chinese Foreign Minister said 9 hours ago that war may be imminent and that there is no wiinners in a war with N Korea.

http://www.rferl.org/a/chinese-fm-says-no-winners-in-nkorea-war/28429546.html

 

With what is happening in the world I wouldn't be so certain of anything. Especially considering its Kim Jong Un who is in charge in N Korea, not exactly a stable individual. And then there is Trump , thats not a good mix.

 

Yes really. There was a reason that President Trump hit Syria while the Chinese president was setting right beside him at diner. There is also a reason that why President Trump didn't call the Chinese on currency manipulation. And please stop looking at President Trump the way he wants you to look at him. The guy is a master manipulater and has lead people around by their noses for decades. Go read "The Art of The Deal"

 

The Chinese spoke about both the North Koreans and they spoke to us. From what I've heard the Chinese threatened North Koreans with stopping the import of oil into NK if they didn't cool their jets.

 

There's more things going on here than just a Carrier task force moving up to the peninsula..

 

 

Oh they are making deals thats for sure and its China that is coming out the winner so far , but what we don't know is are they going to back the removal of Kim Jong Un or are they gonna sit back and see what happens or are they gonna get involved and what will that involvement consist of either pro - con or neutral stance. China can get annoyed at N Korea but they still serve a strategic purpose for the Chinese. The most obvious being they keep western forces away from the Chinese border. I wouldn't count China as being in US/Trump camp , they are in China's camp first and foremost.

 

How do you define winning when the status quo was preserved as it has been for decades in order for them to place pressure on a homicidal meniac in the only way pressure could be brought to bear. What we are seeing is chess pieces being moved around in favor of those who reside in the area and you seem to have come to a conclusion that removing this man would be beneficial, even before anyone knows anyone who would be better to replace him with. North Korea is a place where the leader has been deified for as long as people can remember. It is not unlike the Japan of the 1940's, but the rulers or North Korea were savage despots on the order of Nazi regime. We don't need to depose a deified Hitler, only to replace hm with a Himmler 2.0

 

It took a very long time to allow North Korea to become the hermit kingdom it is and it will take an even longer time to bring it out of that. Those who set by and let this happen were not thinking about the North Korea, but i do think they area becoming aweare of the potential threat that allowing them to continue down the road they are will present in the future. To change North Korea's course would be to go futher than just a regime change, but an entire social change that would effect everyone in the entire country. I don't think that China will be willing to go this alone, because of the massive amount of resourses that it would require. Just think What it would be like if Japan have had a gestapo-like tactics that deified their leader and repressed 90% of their own countrymen. Imagine that existing into today's world with nuclear capabilities. To say these people would be paranoid would be an understatement.

[Harbringe]

 

How do you define winning when the status quo was preserved as it has been for decades in order for them to place pressure on a homicidal meniac in the only way pressure could be brought to bear. What we are seeing is chess pieces being moved around in favor of those who reside in the area and you seem to have come to a conclusion that removing this man would be beneficial, even before anyone knows anyone who would be better to replace him with. North Korea is a place where the leader has been deified for as long as people can remember. It is not unlike the Japan of the 1940's, but the rulers or North Korea were savage despots on the order of Nazi regime. We don't need to depose a deified Hitler, only to replace hm with a Himmler 2.0

 

 

It took a very long time to allow North Korea to become the hermit kingdom it is and it will take an even longer time to bring it out of that. Those who set by and let this happen were not thinking about the North Korea, but i do think they area becoming aweare of the potential threat that allowing them to continue down the road they are will present in the future. To change North Korea's course would be to go futher than just a regime change, but an entire social change that would effect everyone in the entire country. I don't think that China will be willing to go this alone, because of the massive amount of resourses that it would require. Just think What it would be like if Japan have had a gestapo-like tactics that deified their leader and repressed 90% of their own countrymen. Imagine that existing into today's world with nuclear capabilities. To say these people would be paranoid would be an understatement.

 

 

They won by getting the US to relent on currency/banking concerns , the only thing they were asked to do was tighten the economic screws on N Korea , such as not taking their coal/shrinking oil shipments to N Korea , nothing that is critical to China.

 

And I'm not saying China would be the one to rehabilitate N Korea , I said they would be the ones that would have a good chance at removing Kim Jong Un , in fact they are likely the only ones that could do it . Also them doing it with the contacts they do have with the military and others in the country they could (hopefully) keep the country from falling into chaos.

 

As for afterwards its obvious the only viable solution is for the Gov't of S Korea to take over , the country has to be reunited. It would require a status agreement between China and US , involving de - nuclearization of the penisula and the withdrawal of US forces , but it could be done. It would require an aid program from both the US and China to help in its rehabilitation. There would be problems but its better than the alternative , which is a likely war involving nuclear weapons.

[kvnchrist]

 

 

How do you define winning when the status quo was preserved as it has been for decades in order for them to place pressure on a homicidal meniac in the only way pressure could be brought to bear. What we are seeing is chess pieces being moved around in favor of those who reside in the area and you seem to have come to a conclusion that removing this man would be beneficial, even before anyone knows anyone who would be better to replace him with. North Korea is a place where the leader has been deified for as long as people can remember. It is not unlike the Japan of the 1940's, but the rulers or North Korea were savage despots on the order of Nazi regime. We don't need to depose a deified Hitler, only to replace hm with a Himmler 2.0

 

 

It took a very long time to allow North Korea to become the hermit kingdom it is and it will take an even longer time to bring it out of that. Those who set by and let this happen were not thinking about the North Korea, but i do think they area becoming aweare of the potential threat that allowing them to continue down the road they are will present in the future. To change North Korea's course would be to go futher than just a regime change, but an entire social change that would effect everyone in the entire country. I don't think that China will be willing to go this alone, because of the massive amount of resourses that it would require. Just think What it would be like if Japan have had a gestapo-like tactics that deified their leader and repressed 90% of their own countrymen. Imagine that existing into today's world with nuclear capabilities. To say these people would be paranoid would be an understatement.

 

 

They won by getting the US to relent on currency/banking concerns , the only thing they were asked to do was tighten the economic screws on N Korea , such as not taking their coal/shrinking oil shipments to N Korea , nothing that is critical to China.

 

And I'm not saying China would be the one to rehabilitate N Korea , I said they would be the ones that would have a good chance at removing Kim Jong Un , in fact they are likely the only ones that could do it . Also them doing it with the contacts they do have with the military and others in the country they could (hopefully) keep the country from falling into chaos.

 

As for afterwards its obvious the only viable solution is for the Gov't of S Korea to take over , the country has to be reunited. It would require a status agreement between China and US , involving de - nuclearization of the penisula and the withdrawal of US forces , but it could be done. It would require an aid program from both the US and China to help in its rehabilitation. There would be problems but its better than the alternative , which is a likely war involving nuclear weapons.

 

They didn't win anything. They got a reprieve from action that wasn't necessary at that time for actions that are necessary, now. You need to prioritize things so that everything works out instead of blowing up in our faces.

As I've stated before, you need someone strong enough to replace him and have the respect of everyone involved, so that internal politics won't start a civil war over power withing the Government and military hierarchy

This is not a simple tast to undertake mike a Betty Crocker cookbook recipe .

I would think, working under a despot like this man, those that survive his instilation to power would be fevorishly working for his favor and against eachother, in order to focus his ire on anyone other than themselves. This doesn't exactly promote a healthy environment for anyone exept the one in power.

[HeyYou]

The US needs to stay the hell out of nation building exercises. We have already more than adequately demonstrated that we outright suck at it. Personally, I don't feel any real need to spend billions to destroy a country, and then spend trillions to rebuild it. That's just stupid. There is no return on investment there. Sure, the rebuilding of Europe after WWII worked out fairly well, but, N. Korea is NOT Europe. it is an entirely different culture, that has been taught for generations to hate america. We stand zero chance of accomplishing anything good there.

 

We need to dispose of the precedent of blowing crap up, and then immediately giving about huge piles of money to rebuild it, to people that hate us. There IS a problem there, that we WILL have to deal with sooner or later. So, lets deal with it, and then let THEM pick up the pieces of the mess THEY BROUGHT ON THEMSELVES.

 

If you pick a fight with a guy that is MUCH bigger, and more powerful than you, you should fully expect to get your ass kicked.

[Aurielius]

When East and West Germany were reunified they paid they paid the tab for bringing eastern Germany up to speed with the west.. South Korea has the financial wherewithal to pay for the North's rehabilitation. It's their country so it should be their responsibility when it comes time. Providing of course there is a country left to rehabilitate. If there is a a one country solution it should include the demilitarization of the Yalu River area and an extreme draw down of US troops currently stationed in Korea. That should calm China's apprehensions of being encircled by western allies.

[HeyYou]

When East and West Germany was reunified they paid they paid the tab for bringing eastern Germany up to speed with the west.. South Korea has the financial wherewithal to pay for the North's rehabilitation. It's their country so it should be their responsibility when it comes time. Providing of course there is a country left to rehabilitate. If there is a a one country solution it should include the demilitarization of the Yalu River area and an extreme draw down of US troops currently stationed in Korea. That should calm China's apprehensions of being encircled by western allies.

But you just know that our government will show their evil grin, wring their hands in anticipation, and build a base within spittin' distance of the new border....... We seem to revel in our stupidity. :D

[Aurielius]

 

When East and West Germany was reunified they paid they paid the tab for bringing eastern Germany up to speed with the west.. South Korea has the financial wherewithal to pay for the North's rehabilitation. It's their country so it should be their responsibility when it comes time. Providing of course there is a country left to rehabilitate. If there is a a one country solution it should include the demilitarization of the Yalu River area and an extreme draw down of US troops currently stationed in Korea. That should calm China's apprehensions of being encircled by western allies.

But you just know that our government will show their evil grin, wring their hands in anticipation, and build a base within spittin' distance of the new border....... We seem to revel in our stupidity. :D

 

I do not see why our bases in Japan and the Philippines are not sufficient for the job. Leave a small trip wire force in southern Korea that can delay until the cavalry arrives in the event of some Sino-Korean dispute.

[HeyYou]

 

 

When East and West Germany was reunified they paid they paid the tab for bringing eastern Germany up to speed with the west.. South Korea has the financial wherewithal to pay for the North's rehabilitation. It's their country so it should be their responsibility when it comes time. Providing of course there is a country left to rehabilitate. If there is a a one country solution it should include the demilitarization of the Yalu River area and an extreme draw down of US troops currently stationed in Korea. That should calm China's apprehensions of being encircled by western allies.

But you just know that our government will show their evil grin, wring their hands in anticipation, and build a base within spittin' distance of the new border....... We seem to revel in our stupidity. :D

 

I do not see why our bases in Japan and the Philippines are not sufficient for the job. Leave a small trip wire force in southern Korea that can delay until the cavalry arrives in the event of some Sino-Korean dispute.

 

Of course. But then, you are actually a reasonable human being. (or, a VERY good AI.....) Our government.... well..... isn't...... I don't think 'reasonable' falls anywhere into their definition, unless immediately preceded by "Un"......

[Aurielius]

 

 

 

When East and West Germany were reunified they paid they paid the tab for bringing eastern Germany up to speed with the west.. South Korea has the financial wherewithal to pay for the North's rehabilitation. It's their country so it should be their responsibility when it comes time. Providing of course there is a country left to rehabilitate. If there is a a one country solution it should include the demilitarization of the Yalu River area and an extreme draw down of US troops currently stationed in Korea. That should calm China's apprehensions of being encircled by western allies.

But you just know that our government will show their evil grin, wring their hands in anticipation, and build a base within spittin' distance of the new border....... We seem to revel in our stupidity. :D

 

I do not see why our bases in Japan and the Philippines are not sufficient for the job. Leave a small trip wire force in southern Korea that can delay until the cavalry arrives in the event of some Sino-Korean dispute.

 

Of course. But then, you are actually a reasonable human being. (or, a VERY good AI.....) Our government.... well..... isn't...... I don't think 'reasonable' falls anywhere into their definition, unless immediately preceded by "Un"......

 

There has to be a resolution to the Korea Problem before Kim can get an nuclear capable ICBM . We are notoriously bad assassins so that option is not promising. The recent noises from China are encouraging , one can hope but I doubt that they are going to have a real effect.

NK is the only hereditary Communist Dictatorship in existence and in reality is a family (read mafia) business. Kim knows that without a nuke that can be delivered his days are numbered. If Kim's actions in the past are a predictor of the future then the omens are not good.

That leaves war now (endangering South Korea and Japan) or war later, which will throw the west coast into the pot. It seems to be a choice between pestilence and the plague if you ask me. I have always been a pragmatist rather than ideologue in terms of Foreign Policy, but damned if I can see another way out of the maze.