LE The CK and legal problems left and right

[jaysus]

upon installing the CK you are forced to also install Steam Workshop and agree to two EULA, the one for the CK stating that any "material" you create with the editor may be used by bethesda however they like and the EULA for the Workshop stating that any content uploaded (not specifying if that only applies to the steam workshop or any upload in general) may be used by valve, bethesda and affiliates however they please, including commercial use, redistribution, use for statistics, etc, even the stats your mod gets via downloads may be used solely by them for whatever reason (so forget about your university social behavior studies)

 

apart from the obvious problems some modders face here like total loss of property rights if they use the CK and some being unwilling to even start using the CK therefore, we also have a second much more emminent problem at hand... modders ressources and permissions, lets say you upload a new modders ressource under public domain rights, or GNU, or somin, and somone uses your assets to make a mod with the CK, beth would now according to the EULA be able to do with this mod as they please beacause you signed that waiver, including using it commercially which would however be a breach of the public domain rights granted to you though the modders ressource, hence you would illegally hand rights to bethesda which you have no permission to and hence commit a crime in quite some legislatures including the german one, cant speak for others here, would bethesda use these assets they would become party to that crime and maybe even become the fascilitator of a crime by imposing that EULA in the first place... Or beth could sue the modder who got those permission but refused to agree to the EULA yet still used the CK and hence broke a liscence agreement also getting in the line of law, in germany i could not agree to the EULA cause it simply breaks too many IP laws, it would simply be void, however without agreeing to it i would break the liscence and hence not be able to use the CK at all, hence all german modders do so illegaly more or less, and i doubt germany is the only country that has somin like "property" in its law books...

 

as we can see here there is an evident danger of law suits flying left and right which could only harm modding in general

 

for now i have no real solution to it since the last time i nearly got banned for daring to ask questions about the EULA on the bethforum,

atm i only see one possibly acceptable way:

 

use ESMs instead of ESPs

 

basicly you create your mod outside of the CK which is often possible by using SkyEdit, TESSnip and co, then turn it into an esm... adding everything you can without the CK, especially new assets like sounds files, textures, models, etc

once that is done you open the CK and create an esp mod based on your esm, which alters the stuff you need inside your main-non-CK-mod, for example i could create my sword mod completely in skyedit, only the leveled list distribution via a quest script is impossible, by using an additional esp to add that quest script i totally keep all my rights and only hand bethesda and their buddies in crime the questscript and that quest...

 

if anyone knows of more ways to circumvent or reduce the EULA in any way please share your tricks :)

[redxavier]

I think you may be misunderstanding the EULA, either in part or in whole. The key thing to keep in mind is language vs intent. What does the CK EULA intend? To protect Bethesda's assets or to steal your work? Your weapons are of a high quality, there's no doubt about that, but let's not assume they're a vital resource that Bethesda must somehow try to get their hands on and have written a EULA to help them do precisely that.

 

Equally, why would Bethesda spend time and resources suing people for creating mods with the CK in violation of its EULA? Just think of this in practical terms rather than one informed by paranoia and mistrust.

 

Also, as has been explained a few times to you in your thread, the CK EULA covers materials created by the editor, not materials created by other software.

 

But let's look at what has happened so far. Almost a thousand mods have been uploaded to Steam Workshop and how many have been claimed by Bethesda or Valve? How many mod authors have had their property taken away from them?

[VincentIcarus]

The best way to circumvent the EULA is to not release your mods publicly and by not using the CK or Steam but what I'm saying could be construed as promoting piracy and I don't condone piracy. The way I see it, just keep logs, screenshots and other physical proof that you created your material and did not use the CK or Steam or anything produced by Bethesda, Valve, Steam or any other associated producers, including Skyrim. After all, you're using their game engine to make your 3D models become useful. And *IF* Bethesda/Valve/Steam what-have-you decides they want to steal your work then you can sue them and provide proof that they can't touch your s**t. Me, personally, I don't care if they use stuff from my mods to improve the game. I'm doing it because I enjoy it and it makes the game more fun, for me if not for anyone else. If Bethesda/Valve/Steam want to jack my stuff and make it into an official DLC then, by all means, they can do that. I did, after all, agree to their EULA and I am using their programs and products.

 

Last but not least, Jaysus, you're definitely one of the most talented modders here but if you're really that worried about people stealing your work then you need to stop modding, man. Someone, somewhere, at some point in time will probably like your stuff and take it and use it however they want, without your permission. I guarantee you, there's already 2-3 other websites dedicated to Skyrim mods that have a copy of your mod and they're hosting it without your permission right now!

Edited February 13, 2012 by VincentIcarus

[colourwheel]

I think there was less reason to be paranoid when modding oblivion. For one thing The CK is completely integrated into steam as well as the game. Even though 1000's of mods are being uploaded to steam it's still too soon to say what Bethesda will do in the long run giving the EULA is totally in favor against the users in every way possible. The fact there is almost 0 moderation from the staff at steamworkshop sometimes makes me think why do they even have the workshop to begin with. You could probably upload ripped material from another game and it would take their staff weeks or months before they even get to it and realize it's "ripped material" (even when people are reporting it). Was there really a point to even making their utility completely integrated to steam? Seems the CK was a broken utility from the release date as well.

 

But given the EULA and the fact that their main utility is completely integrated to steam it's understandable why some authors might feel hesitant to mod their game when dealing with original work. It's not like people are being forced to mod their game. We can choose.

 

I have chosen not to mod skyrim. Granted I might eventually someday mod skyrim but as of now I just like to sit back and mod oblivion and see how the modding scene goes for a game that is still yet new.

[amycus]

You could probably upload ripped material from another game and it would take their staff weeks or months before they even get to it and realize it's "ripped material" (even when people are reporting it).

 

That is already how the situation looks like currently. Aside from mods stolen from nexus, there are also some ripped assassin creeds armor that I have reported several days ago and they are still there. I even gave links to it in the bethesda official forums to make them aware of it(http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1346843-mods-uploaded-to-the-workshop-without-permission/), but that hasnt changed anything so far. They are really, really slow at this, assuming that they are ever going to do anything about it :confused:

 

Maybe Its just I who is impatient, but I know of a few small russian sites that have stolen mods from me, but removed them faster than this after I sent them a complaint by using ggogle translator.

Edited February 13, 2012 by amycus

[colourwheel]

You could probably upload ripped material from another game and it would take their staff weeks or months before they even get to it and realize it's "ripped material" (even when people are reporting it).

 

That is already how the situation looks like currently. Aside from mods stolen from nexus, there are also some ripped assassin creeds armor that I have reported several days ago and they are still there. I even gave links to it in the bethesda official forums to make them aware of it(http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1346843-mods-uploaded-to-the-workshop-without-permission/), but that hasnt changed anything so far. They are really, really slow at this, assuming that they are ever going to do anything about it :confused:

 

Maybe Its just I who is impatient, but I know of a few small russian sites that have stolen mods from me, but removed them faster than this after I sent them a complaint by using ggogle translator.

 

If this is the current case and their staff doesn't start moderating there site better, Bethesda might actually start taking users work to be used in their future games. With the legal repercussions that can build up over time for not doing anything at all, Bethesda and steamworkshop can get into a lot of trouble if another software company finds their copywrited material active on their website. They would only need to look at the download traffic and the date when the file was uploaded to see they do nothing. lol

[amycus]

You could probably upload ripped material from another game and it would take their staff weeks or months before they even get to it and realize it's "ripped material" (even when people are reporting it).

 

That is already how the situation looks like currently. Aside from mods stolen from nexus, there are also some ripped assassin creeds armor that I have reported several days ago and they are still there. I even gave links to it in the bethesda official forums to make them aware of it(http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1346843-mods-uploaded-to-the-workshop-without-permission/), but that hasnt changed anything so far. They are really, really slow at this, assuming that they are ever going to do anything about it :confused:

 

Maybe Its just I who is impatient, but I know of a few small russian sites that have stolen mods from me, but removed them faster than this after I sent them a complaint by using ggogle translator.

 

If this is the current case and their staff doesn't start moderating there site better, Bethesda might actually start taking users work to be used in their future games. With the legal repercussions that can build up over time for not doing anything at all, Bethesda and steamworkshop can get into a lot of trouble if another software company finds their copywrited material active on their website. They would only need to look at the download traffic and the date when the file was uploaded to see they do nothing. lol

I cant give any straight links since that would be against the rules, but just check the armor section of the workshop and you should find a few ripped assassins creed armors. Uploader openly states that bethesda and steam doesnt have any rules against uploading stuff without permission... Of course they have that in their Terms of Service, but if steam/bethesda doesnt act when people break those rules, it isnt worth much

Edited February 13, 2012 by amycus

[Ghogiel]

I think you may be misunderstanding the EULA, either in part or in whole. The key thing to keep in mind is language vs intent. What does the CK EULA intend? To protect Bethesda's assets or to steal your work? Your weapons are of a high quality, there's no doubt about that, but let's not assume they're a vital resource that Bethesda must somehow try to get their hands on and have written a EULA to help them do precisely that.

Their intent rests entirely in the rights they grant themselves. Nothing more nothing less. It has nothing to do with protecting their assets, because SW has no assets, and strictly speaking anything you create in the CK isn't BGS assets neither. It's 'new materials', as it states that are 'created'. Which implies new s*** that is not theirs.

 

SW for example more of less grants itself a commercial license of any and all things uploaded, this would probably be your assets that would lay outside of the EULA of the CK. Why would they grant themselves that right if they did not want to have the right?

what they intend to actually do with those rights is up for debate, it doesn't mater, they have the rights.

Equally, why would Bethesda spend time and resources suing people for creating mods with the CK in violation of its EULA? Just think of this in practical terms rather than one informed by paranoia and mistrust.

They likely wouldn't sue anyone unless they were making money off it. All that would happen in the circumstances of the modders resource, would be the uploader who uploaded without proper permission to grant commercial license would be liable. And the license made with SW would in effect be voided. The uploader of said assets would eat the brick of any legal fallout not SW. imo which would be next to zip in any time in the near future.

 

Also, as has been explained a few times to you in your thread, the CK EULA covers materials created by the editor, not materials created by other software.

 

But let's look at what has happened so far. Almost a thousand mods have been uploaded to Steam Workshop and how many have been claimed by Bethesda or Valve? How many mod authors have had their property taken away from them?

The CK doesn't claim rights beyond it's domain. It's SW EULA that claims . How many have been claimed by BGS and SW: sort of none. They cannot 'claim' them as in being the new copyright owner, they can however claim certain rights that you have granted them by the act of agreeing to the EULA. Such as doing just about anything they want, such as selling or reusing anything you make and upload. In the sense of claiming those rights, every single mod uploaded has granted those rights to SW. The copy you gave them they have claimed..

 

You can't have your property taken away, you can agree to some pretty liberty taking licensing terms though.

[DrakeTheDragon]

Maybe we should just "spread word", provide some links, to publishers and copyright holders (professional business ones I mean now) the assets of which are hosted there illegally.

It will get Steam move their lazy butts in direct threat of upcoming lawsuits, Bethesda also won't stay calm with this matter, the EULAs of CK and Workshop will finally be enforced just like around here, and maybe... just "maybe"... people over there will finally start to realize exactly "why" these things are handled the way they are right now here at the Nexus.

 

The major point of every Nexus-hater I found over there so far always was they can do the things they weren't allowed to/banned for here just fine over there. This is of course wrong, they just haven't been sued for it, yet.

Maybe they'll start learning this way, as soon as their accounts get banned at the Workshop for exactly the same illegal activities they got banned for here? Provided those individuals are even capable of "learning" at all that is. :unsure:

[colourwheel]

Maybe the whole steamworkshop is just a trap. They are just waiting for a stupid user to upload ripped material from another game who is wealthy so they can sue. lol That makes more sense to why their site is so under-moderated. Steamworkshop and Bethesda would get maybe a 15% cut from the lawsuit after the software company whos work was exploited gets their cut 1st. lol

 

paranoia and conspiracy lol

Edited February 13, 2012 by colourwheel