LE The CK and legal problems left and right

[Ghogiel]

Of which there aren't really any ownership rights being granted to the users, so that is debatable.

No need. Ownership is yours by default and Bethesda (or Valve for that matter) can't claim it without some kind of written transfer.

 

Realistically speaking, even the EULA's for both sites as they exist now are highly suspect instruments in what they simply assume for themselves. It would be sort of like Microsoft claiming they could do as they pleased with any documents you created with Word. The only reason nobody cares is because there's no money involved here. Were it to go to court, the situation changes immediately.

True. It' all comes down to the question are EULAs legally binding documents. Valve has won a case not long back regarding EULA iirc.

[colourwheel]

I think the point of the matter Jaysus is trying to point out, reguardless of who owns what, the simple fact that their utility that is integrated to steam bound to the EULA might limit the trust of user wanting to share with the community original work.

 

They might be trying to protect themselves but at the same time the protection is giving them a way too much power and rights over users work to make one question if they would want to share with the community or not.

 

You have to look at the perspective of the average 3D modelers. If a company has the ability to exploit someones hard work even if there is almost no doubt they wouldn't do it anyways, chances are there is going to be less original mesh work being brought into the community. With less original resorces being introduced to a game over time, there will be less people modding the game. with less people modding the game the over all replay value of the game shortens, for a gaming series that is know for its endless ability of modding.

 

The average 3D modeler would 1st think after reading the EULA that the company would take their work and exploit it for their own profit. It might seem like paranioa but put yourself in the shoes of someone who wishes to bring new material to the community who does a better job at making meshes than bethesda. Most likely After reading the EULA they would think otherwise and move onto something else. To openly give up so many rights just for sharing new mesh work that is probably better than anything bethesda would ever produce would make the mind think "WFH! Who in their right mind would give up so many rights just to share original work to the community?"

 

Also the fact of the matter that the EULA can change at any given momment would be understandable if people wouldn't want to share their work with the community.

 

This is just my thought, I try to see where and how everyone stands based on the work they do and i know for fact Jaysus is a beyond average modeler. Giving this fact I can understand his paranoia. I already know that a lot of japanese modelers, that have made a huge impact on the modding community for oblivion, won't mod skyrim because they didn't change the EULA with thier utility completely integrated to steam. If you look at oblivion it's safe to say on nexus over 75% of the download traffic probably comes from new animations, clothing, armor, body, creatures, and weapon models.

 

The average game user won't mod their game just to flood their Data folder with mods that don't add any new resorces. Chances are they are wanting to find a mod that will add new material to their game beyond some new quest mod or modification to already existing resorces.

Edited February 14, 2012 by colourwheel

[jaysus]

@Arthmoor

they are making money of that whole mod thing yet, one through sales of the game for pc and another through ads on steam

and if i take stuff like weapon mod kits they clearly use mods as their source of inspiration, there are other things like scripts etc that they used already (the workbench in fallout for example comes from a dozen oblivion mods) but never acknowledged

 

@colour and arth

ya i guess the point of view plays a role, arthmoor as a CK modder always had to agree to hand the rights to his stuff to beth, so far i didnt have to do that with my models... only with the relatively little i did inside the CS/GECK

 

@Team fortress EULA

dunno, never played or modded it... but its valve again so i guess its quite probable that they have an equally shitty EULA

 

right now im really asking myself why i am modding skyrim, sure the user base is awesomly huge for mods, probably the largest so far for a game ever except maybe half life or unreal but its really like dah, i dont want that EULA and legal crap hanging over my head and concentrate on doing fun stuff... yet im already spending days only disucssing this subject lol :D id rather talk with colour bout the colour of her panties(-mod)!

[amycus]

@Arthmoor

and if i take stuff like weapon mod kits they clearly use mods as their source of inspiration, there are other things like scripts etc that they used already (the workbench in fallout for example comes from a dozen oblivion mods) but never acknowledged

 

There are loads of cases like that. One of the most obvious ones that I know of was from their "one week marathon" of mods showcase. I cant be the only one who thought of "thieves arsenal" for oblivion, when they showed off their water arrows, right?

[jaysus]

@amycus

well that kinda depends on the script that they used... water arrows and other thief arrows like oil filled clay arrows and such were already part of "thieve" series based on unreal before oblivion even came out and the idea itself is even older i assume, the showcase is also not really a DLC or somin but a funny game they played to examine user reactions and plan ahead DLCs or somin i assume but also to train creativity and have some fun, not the same as making direct profits from other peoples work... yet lol... i actually like beth did that, its awesome, game companies do fun stuff sometimes that sounds reasonable, weird yet effective :P (like those managers going free climbing and s*** but more relaxed i assume lol)

 

in regards to modkits they openly acknowledged the "inspiration" which is cool, its not based on his script (thx god lol) but his idea... the worbench script however is kinda totally the same as for example the one in marts monster mod for oblivion (dunno who wrote it originally)

[Ghogiel]

@amycus

well that kinda depends on the script that they used... water arrows and other thief arrows like oil filled clay arrows and such were already part of "thieve" series based on unreal before oblivion even came out and the idea itself is even older i assume,

I'm sure the idea of an arrow putting out a candle pre-dates thief. Castlevania you put out candles with weapons... and couldn't you light candles with flaming arrows in one of the zeldas?

Anyway yeah, happens. BGS took inspiration of skyrims bow mechanics from a mod acording to Todd. And didn't they hire modders, did someone who did a combat mechanics and animation overhaul to MW actually get hired by BGS to work on Ob?

Edited February 14, 2012 by Ghogiel

[amycus]

Well clearly I was wrong about the water arrows then :whistling: . I have never seen other games use it before, so thanks for the enlightenment. So just ignore me folks, nothing to see here :ohdear: Edited February 14, 2012 by amycus

[blove]

...in regards to modkits they openly acknowledged the "inspiration" which is cool, its not based on his script (thx god lol) but his idea...

 

I wish that they would have, at least then NPCs could use modded weapons correctly.

[Dark0ne]

Cutting through all the talk of legalities and what not, I must say that if it's a choice between having the current EULA, but also having an SDK, or having no EULA, and no SDK, then I'll obviously go with the former.

 

I also saw some talk about the CK EULA superseding the SW EULA, but has anyone mentioned whether Valve would be able to charge for mods if they worked in agreement with Bethesda (so they both took a split of any sales?). It's my understanding that Valve can't charge for mods without permission from Bethesda, but if they get that permission then they can. Do you think that's correct? I'm still 50/50 on whether that will happen or not. I think it's possible, but I'm not convinced it will actually happen.

[Ghogiel]

Well if BGS and valve talked about it, and I am sure they did, as this is the very first page of th Steamworks pitch page for developers. http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/microtransactions.php < "Using the same proven microtransaction system that supports the Mann Co. Store and “Mann-conomy” in Team Fortress 2, you can ship more content to your customers as frequently as you like."

 

But we don't know what is the deal between BGS and Valve. I can only guess BGS is using the service as standard, which would include the microtransation model. I personally doubt they will sell mods for Skyrim.