Are Creation Club products mods?

[nightscrawl]

I regard them as DLC. I've bought armor packs and such for other games; those are all referred to as DLC. I see no difference between those items and these Creation Club things.

 

I think "DLC" should be reserved for anything that comes from the developer in an official capacity. Whether it's free, as was some of the Witcher 3 DLC, or paid, as other armor packs I've bought, they're all DLC.

 

If a player makes something and adds it to the game, without any official support from the developer, that is when it's a mod.

Edited October 5, 2017 by nightscrawl

[Virde]

I don't see them as Mods or DLC since they mechanically do not function as either (since CC content doesn't use ESP/ESM systems like Mods/DLC do and are developed differently than both).

 

I have no problems with modders becoming developers. In fact, I encourage it. Creation Club is allowing people with 0 previous experience in the gaming industry get said experience. This can open doors for a lot of people in that industry and allow them to potentially change their lives for the better. It's all about how the mod author capitalizes on this moment. I have no problems paying for content if I actually want it. Thankfully nothing outside of Survival Mode was really all that pressing for me to try and I got that for free.

 

So far I've received four items from CC for $0 (three for FO4, one for Skyrim). I honestly have little complaint about it outside of the credit system being horrible and reminiscent of Mass Effect 2.

[gnarly1]

 

 

Agreed on all points. IMO money introduced in any form is a bad idea. Even donations to mod authors. Money instantly and effortlessly destroys any modding community and converts it into a paid business, with entirely different goals and motivations. And every dime accepted by mod authors is sponging off somebody else's product.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where's yours?

It's an opinion based on the experiences of other modding communities, and basic logic. For every 100 mod authors who're now and suddenly forced to choose between converting their amateur hobby into a business venture, and moving on to other modding communities, you'll be lucky to get five who're willing to opt for that first choice. Community destroyed.

What other modding communities and where's your evidence to back up the 100 mod authors vs 5 who opt for the business venture? Also, where's your evidence that even donations cause this effect? By your logic people who make apps for the app store are 'sponging' off Apple.

 

Your opinion sounds remarkably like BS at worst and confirmation bias at best.

[CosmicArrow]

They're microtransactions.

 

Which should not be in a single player game.

 

You can argue all day about whether some of the stuff is a mod or official dlc all day and get nowhere and that was Bethesda's goal for this system; to blur the line between mods and dlc. What they mucked up on was the launch, pricing structure and the quality of content. Not in a million years would I think what they are offering is worth the price especially with their stupid credit system. If I wanted something for $10 I would have to buy the $15 pack of credits which people defending CC seem to not understand that its $5 I can't use to buy anything else other than CC stuff. Its a scummy practice to coax more money out of the consumer.

 

Here is some food for thought. Survival Mode is rumored to be made by the same person who made Frostfall and it shares similarities. Take that however you want; I want to know your opinion.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Honestly I don't think CC will affect mods (or free, user-made content) in any significant way. People who want to make things for free and share it with others will continue to do so. My concern is more about how the CC mirrors 'free' mobile games (mostly mobile games) in that you buy credits to buy items to make your gaming experience easier. Which is okay in itself I suppose (even if the credits thing is, as has been pointed out a scummy tactic), but most of those games will hit a point where it's pretty much impossible to progress without buying some of these items. Or the game just gets exceedingly repetitive and grindy without buying those items (or game modes, or alternative quests). Which makes me concerned about the development choices Bethesda might make in the future, because I'd hate to see them turn into the next EA Games that sells you a barebones (at best) game and then sells you the rest in half a dozen or so DLC's that by all rights and reason should have been in the original game. Or they just don't offer you any weapons and armors that are actually effective in late game, etc.

 

And lets not kid ourselves here, this IS the company that pretty much invented the DLC we're talking about. Sure things have changed since the infamous horse armor days, but if any company is going to implement new and novel ways to get money from players with as little effort as possible it will be these guys. So no, I'm not worried about Fallout 4 or Skyrim SE, but I am concerned about what the next installments in either series may look like and how much they may cater towards CC content.

 

I'd also be slightly concerned about the Creation Kits future... but the less tools a developer tends to give a modding community the more hell-bent said community seems to be on modding their game anyway, so I'm sure that even without an official CK release the modding community will find a way.

[TheMastersSon]

 

 

 

Agreed on all points. IMO money introduced in any form is a bad idea. Even donations to mod authors. Money instantly and effortlessly destroys any modding community and converts it into a paid business, with entirely different goals and motivations. And every dime accepted by mod authors is sponging off somebody else's product.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where's yours?

It's an opinion based on the experiences of other modding communities, and basic logic. For every 100 mod authors who're now and suddenly forced to choose between converting their amateur hobby into a business venture, and moving on to other modding communities, you'll be lucky to get five who're willing to opt for that first choice. Community destroyed.

What other modding communities and where's your evidence to back up the 100 mod authors vs 5 who opt for the business venture? Also, where's your evidence that even donations cause this effect? By your logic people who make apps for the app store are 'sponging' off Apple.

 

Your opinion sounds remarkably like BS at worst and confirmation bias at best.

 

First of all imo your Apple analogy is beyond bogus and well into ridiculous. People who write discrete apps for an OS are called product developers. Game modders develop the products of other people. And it really does amount to sponging.

 

As for evidence, maybe you can tell us whether new/updated mod posts are up or down since Bethesda's decision, and by how much. If business is booming I promise to shut up on this issue. :)

[TheMastersSon]

I'd also be slightly concerned about the Creation Kits future... but the less tools a developer tends to give a modding community the more hell-bent said community seems to be on modding their game anyway, so I'm sure that even without an official CK release the modding community will find a way.

Zenimax's action is consistent with an industry-wide campaign to put anything and everything currently available for free on the internet behind permanent paid gates. The internet like every other new technology has to evolve through an abuse phase, and we've been in this phase for somewhere between 10-20 years already. The same company who holds an effective and practical lock on the world's desktops also has the legal right to maintain their monopoly, via copy protection, forced version control etc. Ditto Google and the other de facto digital fascists of today. That's not to claim these companies are doing something you or I or anyone else wouldn't do, if we were in their shoes and had their control, the one and only culprit here is a lack of regulation and user/consumer protections, the same ones that have protected our landline telephone traffic from abuse for 80+ years.

Edited October 6, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[gnarly1]

 

 

What other modding communities and where's your evidence to back up the 100 mod authors vs 5 who opt for the business venture? Also, where's your evidence that even donations cause this effect? By your logic people who make apps for the app store are 'sponging' off Apple.

 

Your opinion sounds remarkably like BS at worst and confirmation bias at best.

 

First of all imo your Apple analogy is beyond bogus and well into ridiculous. People who write discrete apps for an OS are called product developers. Game modders develop the products of other people.

 

So game modders develop products too. Thanks for that circular clarification. So both groups develop products that (hopefully) improve the user experience on a platform (a game/a smartphone). Indeed, that sounds like a highly bogus and ridiculous analogy.

 

 

 

And it really does amount to sponging.

Reiterating something without evidential or logical support doesn't make it any more true. So a modder who accepts a donation from someone who wants to demonstrate their appreciation for the enjoyment derived from the mod is a sponger and in your world should not accept such an acknowledgement of his/her time and talent?

 

 

 

As for evidence, maybe you can tell us whether new/updated mod posts are up or down since Bethesda's decision, and by how much. If business is booming I promise to shut up on this issue. :smile:

 

Perhaps you don't understand the way this works. You put forward evidence and sound arguments (something lacking in your posts thus far) to support your opinions. You don't expect other people to do it for you. You'll actually find that's the best method as you'll be much more motivated to prove you're right than someone else will be to prove you're right. I don't mind if you don't shut up on the issue - the content of your posts is rather entertaining.

 

Zenimax's action is consistent with an industry-wide campaign to put anything and everything currently available for free on the internet behind permanent paid gates. The internet like every other new technology has to evolve through an abuse phase, and we've been in this phase for somewhere between 10-20 years already. The same company who holds an effective and practical lock on the world's desktops also has the legal right to maintain their monopoly, via copy protection, forced version control etc. Ditto Google and the other de facto digital fascists of today. That's not to claim these companies are doing something you or I or anyone else wouldn't do, if we were in their shoes and had their control, the one and only culprit here is a lack of regulation and user/consumer protections, the same ones that have protected our landline telephone traffic from abuse for 80+ years.

At best this is entitlement syndrome; at worst, socialism. Either way it's a common pattern in your posts.

Edited October 7, 2017 by gnarly1

[TheMastersSon]

"So a modder who accepts a donation from someone who wants to demonstrate their appreciation for the enjoyment derived from the mod is a sponger and in your world should not accept such an acknowledgement of his/her time and talent?"

 

That's neither what I said nor meant. The issue is not being paid for mods, it's expecting to be paid for them, or even worse, requiring payment for them. Is this concept really beyond your ability to understand? If you wish to make money developing your own games, nobody is stopping you. When you make money from other people's games, it's sponging.

 

Again, if you're looking for evidence that Bethesda made a bad decision, nobody needs to provide any. Simply look at what has already happened to the modding community and what imo can only continue to happen with these changes.

Edited October 7, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[gnarly1]

"So a modder who accepts a donation from someone who wants to demonstrate their appreciation for the enjoyment derived from the mod is a sponger and in your world should not accept such an acknowledgement of his/her time and talent?"

 

That's neither what I said nor meant. The issue is not being paid for mods, it's expecting to be paid for them, or even worse, requiring payment for them. Is this concept really beyond your ability to understand? If you wish to make money developing your own games, nobody is stopping you. When you make money from other people's games, it's sponging.

 

 

Yeah you did:

 

Even donations to mod authors

 

You then made the unsubstantiated statement:

 

Money instantly and effortlessly destroys any modding community and converts it into a paid business, with entirely different goals and motivations

 

and have failed provide any evidence of modding communities that have been 'instantly and effortlessly' destroyed. Is facts and evidence in support of bold assertions really beyond your ability to understand?

 

 

 

Again, if you're looking for evidence that Bethesda made a bad decision, nobody needs to provide any. Simply look at what has already happened to the modding community and what imo can only continue to happen with these changes.

 

There's plenty of evidence that Bethesda has made many bad decisions - in fact I consider them recidivists. But in the context of your statements above re the modding community, I'm looking, but I'm not finding. But I notice you're still expecting your opinions to be evidenced by other people. Do your own work.

 

 

 

When you make money from other people's games, it's sponging.

And what's it called when you expect content made by other people's time and talent to be free? Clue: it's in my previous post....

 

Oh and in answer to the question posed by the OP: They must be as Bethesda support refers to Creation Club content in their support emails as 'mods'.

Edited October 7, 2017 by gnarly1