Mod Author Donation System

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #56111671.

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Genamine wrote: The only issue I can see with this is that popularity and amount of work put into something are completely different metrics
Not to mention the fact that large projects often require continuous development, while not necessarily yielding any more unique downloads for the extra time spent on it

Whats to keep people from pumping out easy to make but popular mods (like clothing and cosmetic mods) at an industrial rate?

If based on unique downloads on a per-page basis, that would strongly discourage authors to continue work on existing mods, which will yield only recurring downloads from the same set of users
You would be far better off farming as many unique downloads from as many separate mod pages as possible

This presupposes a couple of things.

First, that all mod authors only mod for money/financial gain. We currently have over 240,000 mods on Nexus Mods that were all uploaded on the complete understanding that there would be practically zero financial gain from doing so, thus, I think it's silly to assume all mod authors are instantly going to only give a damn about the Donation Points they receive, which in the grand scheme of things won't be much, instead of focusing on what they always focused on, which is making mods they enjoy making and sharing with others.

Second, that some mod authors "pumping out easy to make but popular mods" is a particularly bad thing. If the quality is good and its stuff people want (and typically popular mods tend to be of a certain quality anyway), more mods is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Edited December 19, 2017 by Dark0ne

[Striker879]

Another 'moral dilemma' for me ...

 

Probably half of my own unique downloads have been made simply to help figure out someone's installation problem ... i.e. the download was a mod I'll never use myself. True, in the big scheme of things we're not talking about thousands of downloads, but still I would feel I'm skewing the system just to answer a question.

[Niborino9409]

I for one is going to try and not bother myself with accumulating points. Still gonna keep at it for fun. I don't get many downloads on my mods so when I get enough points(probably when I'm 70 or 80 :dance:) I can trade them in then.

[Genamine]

In response to post #56111671. #56111901 is also a reply to the same post.

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Genamine wrote: The only issue I can see with this is that popularity and amount of work put into something are completely different metrics
Not to mention the fact that large projects often require continuous development, while not necessarily yielding any more unique downloads for the extra time spent on it

Whats to keep people from pumping out easy to make but popular mods (like clothing and cosmetic mods) at an industrial rate?

If based on unique downloads on a per-page basis, that would strongly discourage authors to continue work on existing mods, which will yield only recurring downloads from the same set of users
You would be far better off farming as many unique downloads from as many separate mod pages as possible

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Dark0ne wrote: This presupposes a couple of things.

First, that all mod authors only mod for money/financial gain. We currently have over 240,000 mods on Nexus Mods that were all uploaded on the complete understanding that there would be practically zero financial gain from doing so, thus, I think it's silly to assume all mod authors are instantly going to only give a damn about the Donation Points they receive, which in the grand scheme of things won't be much, instead of focusing on what they always focused on, which is making mods they enjoy making and sharing with others.

Second, that some mod authors "pumping out easy to make but popular mods" is a particularly bad thing. If the quality is good and its stuff people want (and typically popular mods tend to be of a certain quality anyway), more mods is not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

No, you are correct, Im not under the assumption any current mod authors are in any way in it for the money
On the contrary in fact, theyve proven that much

What I moreso had in mind was if it might bring in new authors that do create content for money if given the opportunity
Monetary gain certainly does promote quality, but isnt that not more of a good thing for users and a bad thing for small authors?
Not because it makes their work less good than it currently is, but because it might discourage them from uploading their work

Either way, Im interested to see what this will bring for the community
Maybe Im completely wrong and itll bring a healthy boost in morale for popular authors, with all thats been going on with mod theft and such

[bchick3]

In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56113291 are all replies on the same post.

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JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.

What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status?

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nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view....

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ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it.

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JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius.

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sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea.

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bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters.

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3

Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.

If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.

Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...

The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.

And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all.

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bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3
That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?

Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.

Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...

Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now.

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bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

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JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.

Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow...

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bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it?

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Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.

However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy.

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FrankFamily wrote: I do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just the take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods.

Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course complied
jimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while! Edited December 20, 2017 by bchick3

[Niborino9409]

  On 12/19/2017 at 11:55 PM, bchick3 said:

 

Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is.

 

You taught me how to port and it can be easy and it can be hard. I've had it super easy with some files and troubles with others(looking at you Geralt), but you solved that the other day. I didn't even have to ask for it. So we can all agree that you(and all the other porters) deserve recognition for your efforts. :smile: It's not worth getting worked up over whether porting is difficult or not in my opinion. The way I see it the main problem is whether you can actually claim points for them since many mods are made up from different authors which would only leave breadcrumbs of points left for each or so. And what to do about that, or if it's just a matter of reaching out to all the different authors. But if 1/3 doesn't want their assets used in the points thingy then that mod would get a no to enter as I see it. Apologies if this has been brought up already, haven't followed all that closely.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Niborino9409

[bchick3]

In response to post #56112576.

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Niborino9409 wrote:

  On 12/19/2017 at 11:55 PM, bchick3 said:

 

Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is.

 

You taught me how to port and it can be easy and it can be hard. I've had it super easy with some files and troubles with others(looking at you Geralt), but you solved that the other day. I didn't even have to ask for it. So we can all agree that you(and all the other porters) deserve recognition for your efforts. :smile: It's not worth getting worked up over whether porting is difficult or not in my opinion. The way I see it the main problem is whether you can actually claim points for them since many mods are made up from different authors which would only leave breadcrumbs of points left for each or so. And what to do about that, or if it's just a matter of reaching out to all the different authors. But if 1/3 doesn't want their assets used in the points thingy then that mod would get a no to enter as I see it. Apologies if this has been brought up already, haven't followed all that closely.

Yeah I just feel unappreciated when folks like levionte try to trivialize what porters do. Btw glad you like the geralt port. Just got permission to port another male follower that might like. Working on it right now Edited December 20, 2017 by bchick3

[FrankFamily]

In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post.

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JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.

What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status?

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nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view....

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ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it.

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JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius.

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sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea.

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bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters.

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3

Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.

If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.

Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...

The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.

And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all.

  Quote

bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3
That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?

Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.

Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...

Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now.

  Quote

bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

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JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.

Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow...

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bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it?

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Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.

However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy.

  Quote

bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course complied

I do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods.

Edited December 20, 2017 by FrankFamily

[bchick3]

In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401, #56113291 are all replies on the same post.

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JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.

What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status?

  Quote

nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view....

  Quote

ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it.

  Quote

JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius.

  Quote

sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea.

  Quote

bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters.

  Quote

JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3

Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.

If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.

Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...

The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.

And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all.

  Quote

bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents

  Quote

JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3
That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?

Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.

Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...

Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now.

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bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

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JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.

Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow...

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bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it?

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Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.

However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy.

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bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course complied
jimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while!

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FrankFamily wrote:

In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post.

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JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.

What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status?

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nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view....

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ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it.

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JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius.

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sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea.

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bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters.

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3

Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.

If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.

Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...

The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.

And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all.

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bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents

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JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3
That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?

Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.

Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...

Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now.

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bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

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JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.

Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow...

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bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it?

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Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.

However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy.

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bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course complied

I do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods.

Yeah I’m not trying to say porting a mod is the same as making one. I’m just saying that it’s not as easy as some folks think. Do a few ports and you will see what I mean. Yes, armor and weapons are easy, most of my ports have been followers which are not so easy. And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm? Edited December 20, 2017 by bchick3

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In response to post #56098936. #56107421, #56108731 are all replies on the same post.

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Alaebasta wrote: I'm just an humble mod author who got in modding for skyrim, but nontheless i've spent a lot of time in the CK. Now with this announcement Nexus sounds is making mods definitively a "Product". And don't get me wrong, i like the idea of you keep the spiky problem "Buying" away from this. But still, making a mod as a product, will need a more precise "Feedback" or the possibility of being saw by a lot of peapole even after the the day one release. I would suggest to use some features to help us like.

-A very essential questionary on the quality of the mod and how the user would improve it. (this will avoid stupid spams in the comment sections and will be a more personal rapport with the modder, more professional)
-A randomize visibility on the main page of a mod or set of, let's face it, endorse aren't that much seals of quality of a mod. And maybe reshowing on the main page will help occasionals, to know mods buried down in the list of mods who didn't got much endorse in the day one.
-A suggestion menù like steam: "You downloaded *this* you might like *that* mod"
-Mod Authors can Highlight their positive comments as advertisment to show their good work.
-A built in formatting menù in the comment section of the mods forum, to be able to make a nice sticky on the fly without going through the forum.

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Pentacrow wrote: I totally agree! You wrote really good points about quality and endorsements.

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Makron8 wrote: One point I can definitely get behind is a "Suggestion" system for mods as it takes me untold amounts of time to find mods I like through the simple search function, and even then a sort of buyer's remorse develops when I see that there are mods no one has heard of with like 100 endorsements that do exactly what I need.

Nowadays, I generally just browse the most updated mods to ensure compatibility with more recent versions of the script extenders, but I still miss out on quite a few amazing mods that way.

I also think a better way to direct people to less popular but great mods is even more called for than it already was. Although there's obvious truth to the idea that a download count is less likely to be argued over or be 'gamed' than another way of describing quality, it's just popularity, and that's not a measuring stick of worth, imo.
Not that it matters to me personally as a modder ofc, I don't imagine I'll ever accept a single penny for anything - it keeps things simple.