Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016, #57242146, #57242636, #57245161, #57255431, #57268611, #57269431, #57269851, #57270086, #57273501, #57277686 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Robbie922004 wrote:

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Oblitus wrote: Fully automated package manager could work, but it won't without enforcing some rules to modders.
- No incremental mod updates or a system to do it automatically. Different main files should only be used to handle different standalone branches of the mod (like lite and full). Every mod should be downloaded in one click and updated in the background.
- Fully automated compatibility patch handling. Patches should be deployed by Vortex, not by the scripted installer (it can only handle specific install order) and not manually (it's a mess). Optional files should not exist at all.
The current implementation of Vortex is terrible in handling this, and it is a very common case. That's a bare minimum since there would also be a lot of cases where you still have to change things manually. Handling conflicts, making own patches, etc.

kanisiba wrote:

Dark0ne wrote:

 

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Logical way is not best way, It seems to merely take away from user freedom of choice . If its attitude doesn't change, Vortex won't be alternative to MO.

madpaddy wrote: I'll be honest to me it seems like tannin is trying to reinvent the wheel, he had it pretty much spot on with MO all it needed was tweaking with some new aspects required for the Nexus a more robust basic front end for the masses but the real meat of MO still there for those that want it. But its a miss match of new ideas that leave it short and the removal of most the features that made people love MO like file by file sorting, the left-hand window to insta fix a conflict, no manual sorting have made it leave a bad taste for many. I'm guessing this is the reason its taken so long its a completely different thing to either of the mod managers people are used too, yes change is good but not all change is good.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @madpatty
I would hardly call it reinventing the wheel.
Majority of users don't need to manually do a load order since we have a program that can do it for you. All you have to do is make corrections that program does not catch, which you are capable of doing in Vortex just fine. Eventually, those rules will likely find their way into Loot meaning the more you use it, the less you have to manually do anything and the more accurate it becomes. Why would you need to manually do your entire load order when you have such a program?

This isn't one of those situations where it's a feature everyone must have. It's a situation where there is a group of people who are so stuck in doing it the old way they can't seem to come to grips with the idea that their way just is no longer required. In fact, they may even believe they are capable of sorting better than the program, and while that might be true at this very moment, the more people who use it and the more rules that get integrated into the program, the more accurate it becomes. Eventually, it will be far more accurate than any single person could achieve in such a short period of time even for the most advanced users. This is the same situation where a chess player might scoff at a machine "Bah! it doesn't have the capability to feel a situation and I have such and such years of playing experience", chess player proceeds to get beaten easily by the program.

Literally, at this point, the only reason you could want or need to manually adjust load order is if you are a developer and need to run some tests. But considering all the other programs still exist that allow you to do this, under such circumstances with how little people would need to do that, just use those old programs, they do exactly what you need. For those who swear up and down, they need to sort every individual mod in their load order manually and don't rely on things like Loot, well ... you are being ridiculous and stubborn.

cortex56 wrote: Vortex does handle Manual load ordering.
I have written it in previous posts, it handles it in several easy ways.
Single esp positioning, bulk esp positioning.
Rule sets or global's.
In most cases positioning an esp is a two click process, removing the rule for an esp is again a two click process.
If you want to position your entire load list of esp's you can. I don't know why anyone would, but you could do it in Vortex.
I like it. It is very fast and flexible.
I know some people posted here as soon as they opened Vortex and ranted how horrible it was. They didn't take the time to move around in it and see what they could do.
There is a learning curve. Be ready for that, but it's a small learning curve.
All I can say is the same thing your mother used to tell you when she put that green stuff on your plate at supper, "Try it, you just might like it". :)

Fuzaki wrote:

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect.

And Vortex is being helped developed by Tannin who made MO; so maybe give it a chance first and see where it's going before ruling it out just yet, even with it's current problems.

Swampfox92 wrote: I have a feeling you don't need to manually drag and drop esps, because vortex will handle it in such a way that you'll never have to. If this rule system behaves how I think it will, this is gonna make manual load order sorting a thing of the past. If you give a bunch of esps rules that they need to load after other specific esps, vortex will handle the load order so that all of the rules are met. This is essentially all you are doing when you are drag and dropping everything manually, except in a much less intuitive manner. I have faith this will be the new standard.

FireStar999 wrote: Dark0ne do you love to spend hours TRYING to apply some rules to a list of 255 plugins having to go through each and every one of them one at a time, not being able to see the progress at all or if its even doing what it is supposed to be doing because visually the load order wont change? How am I supposed to keep track of it, its just impossible for large load orders to use this new method no one will want to spend hours tinkering with settings we barely understand when you can simply let us drag and drop them from the list in the first place, plain and simple, why, its just.... VERY non practical to keep it gentle.

madpaddy wrote: @Brabbit

Keep the personal insults to yourself pal ( you are being ridiculous and stubborn. ) nothing ridiculous or stubborn in what I said, there maybe convoluted ways of doing manual sorting but you try and do a 300 mod list using the current system and ill be on holiday and back before you've finished.

Ps the name is PADDY not PATTY...

+madpaddy
Oh, sorry about the name misspelling.
Also, I don't believe I insulted you, I only pointed out how I see the behavior of some people. If I say someone is being ridiculous and/or stubborn, that really is not an insult, it's an observation of their behavior.

Also, just so you are aware, I actually use LOOT to do my load order and I most certainly do typically have close to 300 mods. It's not complicated in the least bit. First, you allow the auto-sorting to take place. Then, you manually go through it and create the rules you need where the auto-sorting didn't catch.

It's not like you need to manually apply a rule to every single mod, just the ones that are out of place. Just the ones that need manual sorting. If you have to take ages to sort your load order with a tool like Loot, you are doing it wrong. Edited February 4, 2018 by Brabbit1987

[cortex56]

In response to post #57292676.

Dark1Nova wrote: So i got the trial downloaded and installed. Decided to see how the rule handling gets done before anything else.
Made two dummy mods with a text file in each. The filenames are the same, so they would show a conflict and ask for a rule to be set. One text file says AAAAAA and was installed first. the other says BBBBBB and was installed second.
Set a rule so that the "A" text file gets loaded AFTER the B file.
I go to the skyrim data directory to view the symlinked file, but instead of seeing "A", it pulls the B file instead.
Pretty picture of it available here: https://imgur.com/a/zWyC0

Currently it is my understanding that individual file over write is not part of Vortex yet. I did read where it is on Tannin's todo list, if I read that properly.
So, if you install two mods, with LOOSE files of the exact same name into the exact same folder, second one installed is going to over write the first one installed, just like in NMM but with no option to agree to that or disagree with it. Where NMM says" text1 has already been installed by mod a, do you want to overwrite that with text1 of mod b?" and you have the option of saying yes or no.
I also see that as being a problem for some users, however, like I said I did read where that or something similar is on Tannin's todo list.

[DontBlnkBadWolf]

My question has to deal with The Witcher games. Is Vortex going to handle adding mods to those two games, or are we still going to have to manually download and place the mods in the correct folders?

 

I understand full well that the mods downloaded for The Witcher 3 needs to have a Script Merger ran to merge the scripts that conflict, and a Mod Merger has to be ran for combining textures to keep from hitting that 20 mod limit that CDPR enforced on us. But if Vortex can place them properly, then this will cut down on some of the hassle of modding TW3.

 

Bad Wolf

[Dark1Nova]

In response to post #57292676. #57293231 is also a reply to the same post.

Dark1Nova wrote: So i got the trial downloaded and installed. Decided to see how the rule handling gets done before anything else.
Made two dummy mods with a text file in each. The filenames are the same, so they would show a conflict and ask for a rule to be set. One text file says AAAAAA and was installed first. the other says BBBBBB and was installed second.
Set a rule so that the "A" text file gets loaded AFTER the B file.
I go to the skyrim data directory to view the symlinked file, but instead of seeing "A", it pulls the B file instead.
Pretty picture of it available here: https://imgur.com/a/zWyC0

cortex56 wrote: Currently it is my understanding that individual file over write is not part of Vortex yet. I did read where it is on Tannin's todo list, if I read that properly.
So, if you install two mods, with LOOSE files of the exact same name into the exact same folder, second one installed is going to over write the first one installed, just like in NMM but with no option to agree to that or disagree with it. Where NMM says" text1 has already been installed by mod a, do you want to overwrite that with text1 of mod b?" and you have the option of saying yes or no.
I also see that as being a problem for some users, however, like I said I did read where that or something similar is on Tannin's todo list.

If that is the case, then i see no reason at all to switch from MO to Vortex. Sadly i was all about it up until i discovered that. There is no point then to making rules for files that conflict if the 2nd installed will take priority even if a rule is set to say mod 1 should go first. That is the largest selling point of MO and the virtual file system and why it is so far superior in how it gives you the freedom to re-arrange things.
Like seriously, if all of a sudden i have 200 mods installed and want to rearrange 1 or 2 of them due to which textures i want to have overwritten, i have to uninstall all the mods that are part of the conflict and then reinstall in the order i want....that is a flaw that should not exist at all in 2018 when we see that previous software is fully capable of dealing with those kinds of issues easily.
So my review for the facebook group i'm in will simply be.

Use Vortex if you are a standard everyday user that wants simplistic install and ordering of mods. If you are a power user, or want the freedom to control things as much as possible, continue to use MO and don't bother switching. Edited February 4, 2018 by Dark1Nova

[simsrw73]

In response to post #57292676. #57293231, #57294006 are all replies on the same post.

Dark1Nova wrote: So i got the trial downloaded and installed. Decided to see how the rule handling gets done before anything else.
Made two dummy mods with a text file in each. The filenames are the same, so they would show a conflict and ask for a rule to be set. One text file says AAAAAA and was installed first. the other says BBBBBB and was installed second.
Set a rule so that the "A" text file gets loaded AFTER the B file.
I go to the skyrim data directory to view the symlinked file, but instead of seeing "A", it pulls the B file instead.
Pretty picture of it available here: https://imgur.com/a/zWyC0

cortex56 wrote: Currently it is my understanding that individual file over write is not part of Vortex yet. I did read where it is on Tannin's todo list, if I read that properly.
So, if you install two mods, with LOOSE files of the exact same name into the exact same folder, second one installed is going to over write the first one installed, just like in NMM but with no option to agree to that or disagree with it. Where NMM says" text1 has already been installed by mod a, do you want to overwrite that with text1 of mod b?" and you have the option of saying yes or no.
I also see that as being a problem for some users, however, like I said I did read where that or something similar is on Tannin's todo list.

Dark1Nova wrote: If that is the case, then i see no reason at all to switch from MO to Vortex. Sadly i was all about it up until i discovered that. There is no point then to making rules for files that conflict if the 2nd installed will take priority even if a rule is set to say mod 1 should go first. That is the largest selling point of MO and the virtual file system and why it is so far superior in how it gives you the freedom to re-arrange things.
Like seriously, if all of a sudden i have 200 mods installed and want to rearrange 1 or 2 of them due to which textures i want to have overwritten, i have to uninstall all the mods that are part of the conflict and then reinstall in the order i want....that is a flaw that should not exist at all in 2018 when we see that previous software is fully capable of dealing with those kinds of issues easily.
So my review for the facebook group i'm in will simply be.

Use Vortex if you are a standard everyday user that wants simplistic install and ordering of mods. If you are a power user, or want the freedom to control things as much as possible, continue to use MO and don't bother switching.

I don’t have the beta, but I thought I read that you have to redeploy after creating new rules on installed mods?

[angie9111]

Hi! the important is the software can do and can do for me grat for dev to make Vortex great job,one desings or one other to me its not important if you can work with it in easy way and i like what Vortex do with plugins orders ( dependencie load afther/before ) and its just for a few one to do in special occasion not big deal but i have one question exemple: i am MO modder what Vortex do for the right pane plugin for me is great like i say above but in left pan ( mod loader ) i have question i downloaded a mod with texture/meshes for potato,apple,and tomato but they no plugin with it and install some other mods after and play the game for a couple of weeks and i go on nexus site and i found another mod with lot of texture for items,ingrediens,and potato,apple and tomato in it this one as no plugin to but i like more the texture for the potato,apple and tomato from few weeks ago my question is how to put my old one below the new one in the load order how to get right one in my game? if i got to uninstall the old one and purge it and reinstall it after the new one to see itin my game that make me some time for each test i whant to make for all my texture/meshes or just texture i whant to the game if i have 20-30 of them to have the look i whant how do you do that with Vortex? sorry for my english and im 60 old woman playing game so im very slow to learning tanks for your god work all of you!

[IE585]

I downloaded it late, I was able to log into the account, but I wrote the full queue type late.

[haguerepairguy]

In response to post #57296001.

angie9111 wrote:

Hi! the important is the software can do and can do for me grat for dev to make Vortex great job,one desings or one other to me its not important if you can work with it in easy way and i like what Vortex do with plugins orders ( dependencie load afther/before ) and its just for a few one to do in special occasion not big deal but i have one question exemple: i am MO modder what Vortex do for the right pane plugin for me is great like i say above but in left pan ( mod loader ) i have question i downloaded a mod with texture/meshes for potato,apple,and tomato but they no plugin with it and install some other mods after and play the game for a couple of weeks and i go on nexus site and i found another mod with lot of texture for items,ingrediens,and potato,apple and tomato in it this one as no plugin to but i like more the texture for the potato,apple and tomato from few weeks ago my question is how to put my old one below the new one in the load order how to get right one in my game? if i got to uninstall the old one and purge it and reinstall it after the new one to see itin my game that make me some time for each test i whant to make for all my texture/meshes or just texture i whant to the game if i have 20-30 of them to have the look i whant how do you do that with Vortex? sorry for my english and im 60 old woman playing game so im very slow to learning tanks for your god work all of you!

From what everyone is saying, as I don't have Vortex installed, is that you need to go under your settings, into plug ins, drag the mod you want to show up below the new one, then click something that turns it into a rule. For anyone reading that's having trouble understanding what this person asked, if I read it right, it boils down to mod conflict. There's 1 file overwriting and she wants the one it's overwriting to be the conflict winner. If anyone with Vortex could share more please do.

[simsrw73]

Found new YouTube, first impressions video posted:

 

We need more of these ahead of release to help people know better what to expect, in broad brush strokes.

Edited February 4, 2018 by simsrw73

[Ondrea]

After watching a couple videos and reading through the posts here, I had a question on how overwrites work as it appears to be only complete overwrites offered. I currently use MO for Skyrim and NMM for FO4. If I use say two texture packs, and I want one pack to overwrite another, except for a few textures I prefer from the first pack, is there a way to handle that in Vortex? In MO, I hide the textures I don't want to overwrite another. In NMM, I watch the textures getting overwritten and click "No" to specific ones.

 

Can we pick and choose this way in Vortex, where we see what is conflicting and choose specific files to hide?