Giving up on Vortex for now

[Deleted3897072User]

To answer the question as to why I need precise positioning of a mod in the load order -

 

When I'm testing a mod, for some tests I prepare bat files (this is Skyrim/SSE) to execute some of the tests so that I can perform exactly the same tests repeatably after changing things (regression testing). They need to reference specific records in specific plugins and to do that, I have to hard-code the FormIds into the bat files. The command language is very limited and it doesn't allow variables or indirection - everything has to be explicit. That means hard-coding a specific load order position for the target plugin that contains the target form because load order is the top byte of the FormId. So before running the test, I need to ensure that specific plugins are in the right place in the load order. Not relative to other mods, but absolute position as seen in-game by the game engine.

 

Not many people do those kinds of tests, so not many people need to do absolute positioning. It so happens that NMM makes it easy to do (because drag and drop) but Vortex doesn't (because it doesn't think that way) so for me, NMM is more useful than Vortex.

 

Vortex wasn't designed for me. But that's not intended to be a criticism of Vortex, which for nearly everybody else is going to be a great tool, it just means I'm out of step.

[ousnius]

To answer the question as to why I need precise positioning of a mod in the load order -

 

When I'm testing a mod, for some tests I prepare bat files (this is Skyrim/SSE) to execute some of the tests so that I can perform exactly the same tests repeatably after changing things (regression testing). They need to reference specific records in specific plugins and to do that, I have to hard-code the FormIds into the bat files. The command language is very limited and it doesn't allow variables or indirection - everything has to be explicit. That means hard-coding a specific load order position for the target plugin that contains the target form because load order is the top byte of the FormId. So before running the test, I need to ensure that specific plugins are in the right place in the load order. Not relative to other mods, but absolute position as seen in-game by the game engine.

 

Not many people do those kinds of tests, so not many people need to do absolute positioning. It so happens that NMM makes it easy to do (because drag and drop) but Vortex doesn't (because it doesn't think that way) so for me, NMM is more useful than Vortex.

 

Vortex wasn't designed for me. But that's not intended to be a criticism of Vortex, which for nearly everybody else is going to be a great tool, it just means I'm out of step.

 

You can turn off auto-sorting of plugins in Vortex, and run your batch scripts after you installed all mods.

The plugins.txt and loadorder.txt files still exist.

[Tannin42]

To answer the question as to why I need precise positioning of a mod in the load order -

 

When I'm testing a mod, for some tests I prepare bat files (this is Skyrim/SSE) to execute some of the tests so that I can perform exactly the same tests repeatably after changing things (regression testing). They need to reference specific records in specific plugins and to do that, I have to hard-code the FormIds into the bat files. The command language is very limited and it doesn't allow variables or indirection - everything has to be explicit. That means hard-coding a specific load order position for the target plugin that contains the target form because load order is the top byte of the FormId. So before running the test, I need to ensure that specific plugins are in the right place in the load order. Not relative to other mods, but absolute position as seen in-game by the game engine.

 

Not many people do those kinds of tests, so not many people need to do absolute positioning. It so happens that NMM makes it easy to do (because drag and drop) but Vortex doesn't (because it doesn't think that way) so for me, NMM is more useful than Vortex.

 

Vortex wasn't designed for me. But that's not intended to be a criticism of Vortex, which for nearly everybody else is going to be a great tool, it just means I'm out of step.

 

 

Ok, but if I understood you correctly what you need is actually a fixed mod index for a single plugin, not a fixed load order for your whole list.

 

a fixed load order would mean: the order of the plugins remains the same, but if you add an esm that would still force all esps to move up a slot.

 

Example:

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- x.esp (01)

- y.esp (02)

- z.esp (03)

 

yours is y.esm

 

Now you add b.esm. The esm has to be loaded before the esps, so with fixed load order this becomes

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- b.esm (01)

- x.esp (02)

- y.esp (03)

- z.esp (04)

 

So all esps still get new form ids.

 

what you want (if I understood you right) is

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- b.esm (01)

- y.esp (02)

- x.esp (03)

- z.esp (04)

 

so your y.esp keeps the same form ids, switching place with x.esp.

 

This is something that MO has where you can lock a plugin to a mod index.

I would consider this a completely separate feature from manual plugin ordering because you're still only fixating a single plugin and I understand that this isn't provided by loot ordering. If you send a feedback asking for this feature I will put it on the todo list. Still can't promise how it well get prioritised though.

[jaderiver]

I couldnt get the blastard thing to open fully, I couldnt wrap my head around properly to use mo let alone use something that's mo and nmm combined anyway , and I really like nmm , from what I've been able to get from other posts is vortex is more mo side anyway ..

So I also wont be using it , I like having control of my load anytime I need .. So Uninstalled it

[HadToRegister]

This uses Meta Rules like LOOT instead of an actual VISUAL REPRESENTATION of the Load order?

Oh, count me out forever.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I can't stand the Meta sorting like LOOT does, it's a massive hassle when I can just drag my mod to a different place int he load order with Wrye Bash.

[Greslin]

This uses Meta Rules like LOOT instead of an actual VISUAL REPRESENTATION of the Load order?

 

Oh, count me out forever.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I can't stand the Meta sorting like LOOT does, it's a massive hassle when I can just drag my mod to a different place int he load order with Wrye Bash.

 

 

 

I'd have to agree. I want more control, not less. No visual load order, no thanks.

[Deleted3897072User]

 

To answer the question as to why I need precise positioning of a mod in the load order -

 

When I'm testing a mod, for some tests I prepare bat files (this is Skyrim/SSE) to execute some of the tests so that I can perform exactly the same tests repeatably after changing things (regression testing). They need to reference specific records in specific plugins and to do that, I have to hard-code the FormIds into the bat files. The command language is very limited and it doesn't allow variables or indirection - everything has to be explicit. That means hard-coding a specific load order position for the target plugin that contains the target form because load order is the top byte of the FormId. So before running the test, I need to ensure that specific plugins are in the right place in the load order. Not relative to other mods, but absolute position as seen in-game by the game engine.

 

Not many people do those kinds of tests, so not many people need to do absolute positioning. It so happens that NMM makes it easy to do (because drag and drop) but Vortex doesn't (because it doesn't think that way) so for me, NMM is more useful than Vortex.

 

Vortex wasn't designed for me. But that's not intended to be a criticism of Vortex, which for nearly everybody else is going to be a great tool, it just means I'm out of step.

 

 

Ok, but if I understood you correctly what you need is actually a fixed mod index for a single plugin, not a fixed load order for your whole list.

 

a fixed load order would mean: the order of the plugins remains the same, but if you add an esm that would still force all esps to move up a slot.

 

Example:

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- x.esp (01)

- y.esp (02)

- z.esp (03)

 

yours is y.esm

 

Now you add b.esm. The esm has to be loaded before the esps, so with fixed load order this becomes

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- b.esm (01)

- x.esp (02)

- y.esp (03)

- z.esp (04)

 

So all esps still get new form ids.

 

what you want (if I understood you right) is

- a.esm (mod index 00)

- b.esm (01)

- y.esp (02)

- x.esp (03)

- z.esp (04)

 

so your y.esp keeps the same form ids, switching place with x.esp.

 

This is something that MO has where you can lock a plugin to a mod index.

I would consider this a completely separate feature from manual plugin ordering because you're still only fixating a single plugin and I understand that this isn't provided by loot ordering. If you send a feedback asking for this feature I will put it on the todo list. Still can't promise how it well get prioritised though.

 

Yes, that's the gist of it. It might be a couple of plugins rather than just one, but the principle is the same - pinning a particular plugin and letting the rest flow around it as they are enabled and disabled (but still subject to whatever rules are defined).

 

I hesitate to request it as a Vortex feature, though, because I already have other software that gives me everything I need. So I'll just stay in my little corner and let Vortex pass me by for a while. I can't ignore it completely because sooner or later I will want to support people who install my mods through Vortex but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

[AWP3RATOR]

@Tannin42 - What was the basis for the design decision to rely on Loot's dependency to sort the load order? It seems like this was a design decision made to ease the process for the masses, which is a great thing in my opinion. As you've stated before, most users just group like things together and don't necessarily know why/how to sort a load order "properly" (we wont' debate properly here, many arguments on many sides of that one).

 

I think what users are asking for here is an "advanced" feature which allows for manual sorting of the load order within the gui. They have this in both MO and NMM, but not with Vortex. For "advanced" users who are used to that sort of feature, to find it lacking in Vortex is a bit jarring. Sure, they can learn to use Loot's features - but calling out to another piece of software, as a dependency to avoid building a wanted feature, is in my mind, a short sighted development viewpoint.

 

That all being said, the person who "needs" the ability to sort their load order manually is (I agree) in the extreme minority. You've asked repeatedly in this thread for someone to reason why they need this feature, and as a software developer and "advanced" user myself - I can't say that I absolutely need it. I would very much like it, but if it's a question of an MVP feature vs a nice to have, manual sorting is a nice to have.

 

 

*EDIT* - Not in any way am I dumping on Vortex - I think ti's innovative and a nice step forward over NMM. And while I am partial to Mod Organizer's features, I am giving Vortex a fair shakeown. One thing I haven't seen anyone ask and haven't found myself: Is there any documentation on Vortex and it's features? A how to use guide?

[falloutguy93]

One thing I haven't seen anyone ask and haven't found myself: Is there any documentation on Vortex and it's features? A how to use guide?

Dark0ne has said that this closed Alpha is to let people lose on Vortex with no guide as to how to use to, so they can see how intuitive the UI is. Once the full Alpha rolls around there will be documentation/Video's on it. I have seen said that GophersVid's is already working on a Video to co inside with the Full Alpha release.

 

I found his Quote from the News Comment Section.

 

 

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

[AWP3RATOR]

 

One thing I haven't seen anyone ask and haven't found myself: Is there any documentation on Vortex and it's features? A how to use guide?

Dark0ne has said that this closed Alpha is to let people lose on Vortex with no guide as to how to use to, so they can see how intuitive the UI is. Once the full Alpha rolls around there will be documentation/Video's on it. I have seen said that GophersVid's is already working on a Video to co inside with the Full Alpha release.

 

I found his Quote from the News Comment Section.

 

 

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

 

Thanks! I hadn't seen that. That "closed alpha no docs" situation being the case. I can say that I found the system rather simple to use as I'm very familiar with NMM and MO2. Being a software developer myself, I might be a bit more lenient than most people on "no docs" - but I do like to read those things as I often find shortcuts and features that were otherwise not readily apparent from the gui itself.