Simple manual load ordering plz

[Jebbalon]

 

How the form lists get messed up is a mystery I guess.

At a guess? It´s propagated at the first start of the game, controlled by a quest, then never touched up on again. Making sense as they seemingly seem to be a [FEMALEDAWG] to create using scripts.

 

I'm not sure about all the ins and outs of Vilja's scripting and use of form lists.

From scripting my own mods though you can have an empty form list and use scripts to add items into it - to remove items though I think you have to revert the whole list which clears it - then fill it again minus the items you want to remove.

With Vilja's outfits you can fill them with armor from vanilla or any other armor mod.

Continued below...

 

A form list is actually mod index agnostic.

 

@Jebbalon, I wonder, in what way does the formlist get messed up? I'm simply curious about what's happening in that mod.

... Continuing from above

So, an outfit form list filled with any number of armor from other mods - My thinking was that changing load order of any or all the mods could confuse those lists, causing problems.

As I said though - with Arthmoor's explanation that file names are used not mod index - then load order change should not matter.

More likely it is a scripting issue that they were able to create the fix for.

[UrizenDe]

... Continuing from above

So, an outfit form list filled with any number of armor from other mods - My thinking was that changing load order of any or all the mods could confuse those lists, causing problems.

As I said though - with Arthmoor's explanation that file names are used not mod index - then load order change should not matter.

More likely it is a scripting issue that they were able to create the fix for.

A) Thanks for the useful info and B) aren´t entries in the formlist referenced by their formID though? Because as I understood it from Arthmoor ( and pls correct me If I misunderstood that one Arthmoor ), only scripts that belong to the mod they came with are stored with the name attached, i.e. AMod.AScript?

[Grestorn]

Then just what is the problem with just letting people simply drag 'n' drop mods around?! Why do we have to mod with our hands constantly tied behind our backs?!

 

This argument is so circular its hilarious.

 

 

As have been stated many times, you cannot combine automatic with manual sorting. It's either the one or the other.

 

To see it as "modding with tied your hands behind your back" is just the wrong picture.

 

See automated sorting combined with your rules as a way to do manual sorting which sticks permanently. Which is what it is, actually. You say "I want this to be after this, and please make sure it stays that way!"

 

While the old manual drag and drop would be "put it there please and let's hope that the next sort won't f*#@ it up again".

 

For me it's really hard to get why this concept is so difficult to accept.

[Grestorn]

 

... Continuing from above

So, an outfit form list filled with any number of armor from other mods - My thinking was that changing load order of any or all the mods could confuse those lists, causing problems.

As I said though - with Arthmoor's explanation that file names are used not mod index - then load order change should not matter.

More likely it is a scripting issue that they were able to create the fix for.

A) Thanks for the useful info and B) aren´t entries in the formlist referenced by their formID though? Because as I understood it from Arthmoor ( and pls correct me If I misunderstood that one Arthmoor ), only scripts that belong to the mod they came with are stored with the name attached, i.e. AMod.AScript?

 

 

The plugin id part of each reference formID is always automatically adapted when loading a saved game. Otherwise everything would break just right away.

[UrizenDe]

As have been stated many times, you cannot combine automatic with manual sorting. It's either the one or the other.

 

To see it as "modding with tied your hands behind your back" is just the wrong picture.

 

Actually have to agree with this one. It´s Hyperbole that doesn´t help.

[Rattledagger]

but I will not be able to recommend Vortex to anyone who wants full control over their game because it doesn't allow for it.

 

You recommending Wrye Bash over Vortex is your choice and I've minimal comment about this part.

 

You claiming you can't have full control of the load-order with Vortex on the other hand I will comment on, since your statement is not correct.

 

The fact is, since you can "Lock Mod Index" of any plugin in Vortex, you can create exactly the same load-order in Vortex as you can do with Wrye Bash. In addition, since Vortex allows manually putting a plugin before it's masters (and MO is the same), and at least 32-bit Skyrim will actually load this FUBAR load-order, you've got even more control with Vortex load-order than you've got in Wrye Bash since I would guess Wrye Bash does not allow plugins to load before masters (NMM at least does not).

 

Now you can argue Vortex locked mod index isn't very useful and using drag-and-drop is easier, the fact still remains Vortex allows full control of the load-order.

 

Thankfully Vortex doesn't only support manually locking the mod index. Two other methods are to use "load after…" rules and to use Groups. At least in my opinion using Groups is the most powerful.

 

When it comes to Groups, some important considerations are:

1: Groups was recently added to LOOT, meaning Groups wasn't part of older LOOT documentation.

2: Vortex is better at handling Groups than LOOT is.

3: Vortex allows adding new Groups.

4: The order the Groups are loaded in is shown with lines and arrows and these lines between Groups can be edited.

 

So one alternative method to get a manually created load-order in Vortex is if you've got N esp you create N custom groups, example numbering these 1 - N (or example giving them part of the esp as name), and put a single esp into each of these numbered groups. In case you want to switch the load-order of two esp, either switch the Group each esp is part of, or, you can edit the links between Groups.

 

End-result is, you can again create exactly the same load-order in Vortex as you can create in Wrye Bash.

 

In practice for most esp it's completely irrelevant which order they loads in, meaning chances are you'll only need to use n Groups where n << N. At least in my experience n is so small that I don't even need to create any custom Groups at all but can rely on the Groups already present.

 

To sum up, in Vortex you can:

5: Create exactly the same load-order in Vortex as in Wrye Bash.

6: Easily change the load-order if you're using Groups. This includes moving one esp for testing-purposes.

7: You only need to do this once for the same plugins to get the same load-order.

8: You don't need to create a single "load after…" rule in Vortex.

 

As a mod manager user, it's irrelevant if you tries Vortex or continues using Wrye Bash. As a mod creator, recommending one mod manager over another is also no problem. Saying you don't support a particular mod manager due to no experience with said mod manager is also not an issue.

 

Claiming it's not possible to use Vortex to create whatever load-order you desires when Vortex has at least 2 different methods to create exactly the same load-order as Wrye Bash is on the other hand a problem.

[Arthmoor]

 

... Continuing from above

So, an outfit form list filled with any number of armor from other mods - My thinking was that changing load order of any or all the mods could confuse those lists, causing problems.

As I said though - with Arthmoor's explanation that file names are used not mod index - then load order change should not matter.

More likely it is a scripting issue that they were able to create the fix for.

A) Thanks for the useful info and B) aren´t entries in the formlist referenced by their formID though? Because as I understood it from Arthmoor ( and pls correct me If I misunderstood that one Arthmoor ), only scripts that belong to the mod they came with are stored with the name attached, i.e. AMod.AScript?

 

Yes, scripts are stored in the save by their filenames. Probably due to the fact that multiple mods can make use of the same script and trying to store that by form ID wasn't practical. This applies to all mods and all official content btw. Not just a select few.

 

 

Then just what is the problem with just letting people simply drag 'n' drop mods around?! Why do we have to mod with our hands constantly tied behind our backs?!

 

This argument is so circular its hilarious.

 

 

As have been stated many times, you cannot combine automatic with manual sorting. It's either the one or the other.

 

 

And yet for at least 10 years we've all been doing exactly that. So. Just how did we accomplish this apparent miracle you say is impossible? What about 2018 suddenly made this something that can't be done in a competent mod manager?

[Grestorn]

 

And yet for at least 10 years we've all been doing exactly that. So. Just how did we accomplish this apparent miracle you say is impossible? What about 2018 suddenly made this something that can't be done in a competent mod manager?

 

 

You know exactly what I mean. I know that you recommend to use LOOT to get an initial order and then do the rest manually.

 

The thing is: Once you changed the order manually, you cannot use LOOT again because then your carefully made adjustments are most likely lost. The only way to make sure that LOOT adheres to your will is to.... GASP... use rules!

[Arthmoor]

Except it's not true that you can't use LOOT again. You just need to readjust anything you've done manually as well. As I said, we've been doing it this way for 10+ years since the advent of BOSS and never once has anyone said it was wrong, inefficient, or impossible.

 

Unless you're one of the tiny minority who spends all day managing load orders instead of playing the game or writing mods, this isn't anywhere close to the big deal you and Tannin are making it out to be.

[Grestorn]

Exatcly the opposite. Before I started my latest playthrough (you know, the one with SkyrimVR :smile: ), I've spent some time checking which of the mods I like are conflicting. There actually are a couple of them (editing items and cells) for which there are no patches available, so I've created patches for them with xEdit myself, and used LOOT group-assignments to make sure that my patches are loaded at the end.

 

For a few other mods I made a conscious decision that I cannot or will not fix their conflicts, but that the end result is fine with a given load order, so I made sure there's a rule for them. I'm talking about two or three rules for my ~200 plugins (introduced by 260+ mods).

 

That's it. After that I've regularly added and updated mods, occasionally even removed one, if it caused some trouble. I've only looked casually at the load order, because it's always correct. LOOT with my small set of rules and the group assignments take care of that.

 

 

Having to make all those adjustments again after LOOT has done its thing, would be a real nuisance, on the other hand. As a matter of fact, I've been using rules and sort priorities (before there were groups) in LOOT long before there was Vortex. It was the rational thing to do, even with NMM and MO.