Simple manual load ordering plz

[Dark0ne]

No, we haven't actually

 

 

If you can quote where I said I'd ban anyone for posting in this thread, I'll concede the point. But I didn't, so that's the end of that as well.

 

Both Tannin and I decided we were not going to implement manual drag and drop load ordering (how it's done in other mod managers) any time soon unless someone presented us with some good arguments as to why we should. We'll be continuing with our roadmap for now. If you want to take that to mean we were never going to do it anyway, then that's fine.

 

If people still have legitimate questions then by all means, please continue to use this thread. But I think it's in everyone's best interests if we move on until such time as a new point is brought up.

[HadToRegister]

Both Tannin and I decided we were not going to implement manual drag and drop load ordering (how it's done in other mod managers) any time soon unless someone presented us with some good arguments as to why we should. We'll be continuing with our roadmap for now. If you want to take that to mean we were never going to do it anyway, then that's fine.

 

I've brought up several good reasons as to why being able to manually move a mod is handy, they've all been dismissed, and I get it, you and Tannin don't want manual drag and drop, period, so there's going to be no reason proposed that will ever be considered "good enough", so I've given up.

Currently I have a thread called "How do I edit sorting rules in Italics", because I have a problem with sorting a few mods because they're causing a cyclic reference.

I've been discussing it with Tannin, and am waiting for his suggestion, because Vortex is insisting the mods be loaded a certain way, that I'm unable to change, and it's being caused by another mod that's made a master out of another mod, which totally screws up the sorting rule.

Because of this it's been a real hassle to sort, I'm hoping for a resolution to the problem.

[Arthmoor]

Both Tannin and I decided we were not going to implement manual drag and drop load ordering (how it's done in other mod managers) any time soon unless someone presented us with some good arguments as to why we should. We'll be continuing with our roadmap for now. If you want to take that to mean we were never going to do it anyway, then that's fine.

Actually you've had several people give you good arguments. You've simply chosen to set so high a standard on what you'll accept as good that nobody can ever meet it.

 

Which is fine. It would have been helpful to just say that 7 months ago and lock the thread, but you didn't. You left it open for people to think you'd listen to reason, but you've demonstrated no intention of doing so. Which is also fine. It's your money to spend on developing things how you want. That doesn't mean people like me have to like it and that our opinions aren't worth spit because we won't use a program missing a required feature.

[HadToRegister]

Just a suggestion, I know it's being worked on, but a full in-depth manual/guide (Preferably Manual) would probably alleviate a lot of these questions, doubts and confusion.

Because honestly, I currently feel that I'm happily, and accidentally bumbling into a working load order by sheer chance/luck.

Hell, I just found out kind-of, sort-of, how groups probably, sort-of, maybe, kind-of work, (as I'm going by my own guess/assumption as to how they work sans any documentation)
If they work like I think/believe/hope they do, then that's yet another powerful feature that I've just found out about, after blindly flying by the seat of my pants, and poking Vortex with various sized pointed sticks and running away in confusion like the proto-humans in the "Dawn of Man" sequence at the beginning of "2001: A Space Odyssey"
I've been working with Vortex in the smallest and limited scope that it's capable of, while missing out on it's full potential due to no manual or guides, which isn't the best way to win people over to the possible ease-of-use, wonders and glory that might be Vortex.

“Tell me and I forget,

teach me and I may remember,

involve me and I learn.”

 

 

[Jebbalon]

@Arthmoor

:wallbash:

@Dark0ne

:wallbash:

@Tannin

:wallbash:

 

None of you responded to my post on page 23

@Dark0ne

 

So, lets recap:

At this time, Vortex does not have "drag and drop" plugin load ordering functionality

Some people think that's a stupid idea and won't use Vortex, preferring to use something else already available

Some people don't think that's a stupid idea, and are enjoying/prefer using Vortex

Am I missing anything?

Yes you are! See above!

 

Edit: or is it that there was nothing to respond to? In that case .... :wallbash:

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jebbalon

[Tannin42]

 

Actually you've had several people give you good arguments. You've simply chosen to set so high a standard on what you'll accept as good that nobody can ever meet it.

 

Which is fine. It would have been helpful to just say that 7 months ago and lock the thread, but you didn't. You left it open for people to think you'd listen to reason, but you've demonstrated no intention of doing so. Which is also fine. It's your money to spend on developing things how you want. That doesn't mean people like me have to like it and that our opinions aren't worth spit because we won't use a program missing a required feature.

 

The standard has always been: The argument needs to show that the rule-based system is insufficient, insofar as you can't solve certain conflicts at all, or - in a legitimate use case - causes a sever amount of extra work. And we did state that back in february and never made a secret out of it, sorry if you missed that.

The standard has never been: "we need x people to want it very badly" and I did state at least 8 pages ago that this isn't a poll and that there won't be a poll and I did explain why it isn't one.

 

In the same way it's of course possible we miss one of your replies, I've been gone for a day and there is around 3 new pages, I'm certainly not going to read them all in-depth. You yourself complaint about me spending time on this debate.

So let me just re-iterate: I'm honestly not aware of any argument that would necessitate manual ordering and that hasn't been proven to be based on a false premise apart from:

- It's how all other mod managers do it so far

 

If anyone is actually aware of another argument that they believe hasn't been proven to not apply, please be so kind and repeat it for me (preferably in a factual, non-personal, non-aggressive tone).

 

@Jebbalon: I'm not sure what part you were expecting a reply to tbh.. We already said there was further documentation in the works. It's not going to be made by me because it's extremely difficult for someone who has implemented the thing and worked with it for almost two years to identify the aspects that may cause confusion to new users. Thus I'm only advising on the documentation and can not give you anything concrete on how long it's going to take or how detailed it's going to be.

But we are only going to document Vortex, we're not going to document a method that Vortex doesn't even support. afaik.

[Jebbalon]

 

@Jebbalon: I'm not sure what part you were expecting a reply to tbh.. We already said there was further documentation in the works. It's not going to be made by me because it's extremely difficult for someone who has implemented the thing and worked with it for almost two years to identify the aspects that may cause confusion to new users. Thus I'm only advising on the documentation and can not give you anything concrete on how long it's going to take or how detailed it's going to be.

But we are only going to document Vortex, we're not going to document a method that Vortex doesn't even support. afaik.

Okay - I'll try one last time to lay this out as I see it...

 

A - Vortex developers are admittedly not in touch with what confuses users ( new users as that is the only type there are currently ) This, despite, a single 27 nope now it's 28 page 7 month thread on one confusing aspect of the software.

B - Experienced users of all the tools currently available have expressed the need for functionality that has always been a part of those tools to be included in Vortex.

 

Side A is as stubborn as side B. Side A doesn't seem to want to budge. Side B is reluctant as well.

 

There is one actually reasonable voice out there that has repeatedly pointed out that both sides are being stubborn and that he agrees with both sides and belongs to both sides (if you consider providing feedback as being in side A and is most definitely part of side B). He also pointed out that this issue of manual drag and drop is NOT an actual issue at all in Vortex and that better documentation would help explain this. Both sides of course ignore this because they don't actually understand the issues.

 

This whole thread is a non issue - that is why side A is being stubborn but they can't seem to grasp that providing more documentation / explanation / article / not official just link to something that explains it all - this will help tremendously to get side B to get past this.

 

Side B needs to sit down with Vortex to understand that the manual drag & drop is not needed. As explained by that one reasonable voice.

 

Manual drag & drop is being argued as this must have for manipulating load orders

I ask - What is the difference between....

- dragging my cursor from one area of the screen to another and releasing and ...

- dragging my cursor and making a few clicks or using some menus to achieve the same results ??

 

Walking, horse, car, space shuttle (really?) - it all involves moving from one place to another. If you can't figure out how to adapt and overcome then get out of the way. That was for side B. For side A I say it helps to fully explain your position especially when you have been told that it is not well explained.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jebbalon

[Dark0ne]

Ok, I'll be moderating this thread from now on. The tit for tat arguments can stop and posts are going to get hidden if people cannot conduct themselves appropriately or if things divert too far away from the original post of this topic, which was the introduction of "simple manual load ordering" to Vortex.

 

None of you responded to my post on page 23

 

 

It was answered on page 16 already, but let me repeat what I said there to save you the time.

 

"The community team are working on documentation right now. It'll likely be thin to begin with during the beta launch, but be padded out as time goes on. We're integrating help, support and tutorials into Vortex itself at the moment, which will become a part of the content process."

 

By the time we launch 1.0 of Vortex I fully intend for it to have tutorials (both written and in video form), help articles, and tooltips integrated into the actual software. I want Vortex to be a tool that will answer even the "easy" questions that absolute beginners are going to want answered (e.g. the first time the user gets a conflict, a tooltip will pop up and tell them, give them a brief overview of what a conflict is, and link them to more documentation for a more complete answer if they so wish). Naturally, it will be possible to turn this stuff off for "advanced" users. We don't want another "Clippy" on our hands, after all.

 

This thread is serving as a great source for the documentation, helping us to understand what we need to write about and what we need to make more clear. While we might not agree on what constitutes a good argument for including drag and drop manual load ordering in Vortex, we've certainly been attentively reviewing the questions asked and the misconceptions spread so we can provide more adequate answers in the documentation. If you go back and read the first 8 pages or so, we actually have a couple of people who were on the fence about using Vortex who, after reading responses, decided to make the plunge and are now using it. Similarly, we have users in those early pages who had been fighting with the system that, after reading responses, had it "click" and who are now happy with it. That's obviously an issue with either our UI, our lack of documentation, or both, but knowing that is very useful to us moving forward.

 

On a side note, you can link directly to a specific post by clicking the number in the top right corner of a post. For example, this post is #272. If you click that, a window will pop-up with a direct link to that post. Handy for when you want to bring attention to a specific post like you have.

 

Now, HadToRegister had a tirade (that is now hidden) about Tannin "moving the goalposts" on what we constitute as a good argument for manual drag and drop load ordering like how other mod managers do it. In the hopes of steering this back on course, I've taken the liberty of going back and reviewing all that Tannin has said about this specific issue of implementing it into Vortex (things diverted A LOT from the original point of this thread).

 

 

You're welcome to try and convince me otherwise. With arguments. But don't expect to change my mind just because the same demand gets repeated a lot.

 

If you have experience with rule-based sorting, gave it an honest chance, and still would prefer manual sorting (and it would have to be exclusive, not an imaginary mixed mode that can't actually be implemented) your opinion carries more weight. But you'd still have to convince us, with arguments, that it's the better option.

Also, I want to be very clear about one thing: No one is being shut down, we're not standing in the way of an extension that implements manual ordering, we're just saying: We do not have plans to invest our time/money and sacrifice other plans unless you give us good arguments. That's not unreasonable.

 

 

We don't owe you manual drag&drop load ordering, this is our choice to make. We listen to arguments because we're reasonable people but we're not going to be coerced into making a change we don't believe in.

 

 

 

Arguments? Plural? Maybe I've been reading the wrong posts then because there is only one argument that's been brought up and that's "It's always been this way". That doesn't become multiple arguments just because multiple people are stating it.

If you see other arguments for - let's call it "direct" - ordering, could you repeat them please?

 

Up to now, no one has repeated them, instead simply referencing "good arguments" that had supposedly already been made that I simply cannot find in this thread. If you think you have a good argument for implementing manual load ordering in Vortex then, legitimately, please post it or repeat it here. If your answer to this question is something akin to "I'm not going to repeat myself, there are good arguments and you need to go find them" then simply do not bother. Similarly, if your answer to this question is akin to "Every other mod manager does it this way, and it's the way it's always been done" then do not bother. If you do, your post shall be removed, simply because it has already been said many, many times in this thread and it adds nothing further to the discussion at this point.

 

Continuing...

 

I'm open to hearing arguments from "the other side", that's why I'm still replying on this thread but tbh. there hasn't been a lot added to the discussion that I hadn't considered from the start. The only person who actually raised a point that I hadn't thought of before is OldMansBeard in this thread: https://forums.nexus...-vortex-for-now and it took all of 2 well-thought-out posts from him to get his point across and convince me and one update for me to address it.

But now, after 16 pages on this thread alone and 7 months after release, I'd be a bit surprised to hear something new. Still: I'm listening.

 

 

Well for one thing, I did add a ton of features and changes on user request - you of all people could know that I'm not a closed minded person.

I have considered the pros and cons of direct vs rule-based load ordering for a long time, way before I even joined Nexus Mods and yes, this obviously gives me a strong opinion on it.

But I also never made a secret out of the fact that I wouldn't change this unless a really good argument were brought forward that I didn't consider before.

 

 

So, lots of posts about wanting a "good argument". This next quote explains exactly why it isn't implemented into Vortex which, I will add, no one responded to, instead deciding to completely ignore it.

 

I still don't get why you can't have LOOT to auto-sort and then allow a manual override for a particular plugin.

 

 

Because that particular mod could have it's own rules and be referenced by other mods and it can be master of another mod or have another mod as its master.

I can of course ignore individual mods for the automatic sorting but how do I then put them into the sorted block? Let's say I have plugins a through d and plugin c shouldn't be auto sorted.

LOOT generates the order b, d, a for the plugins that do get sorted, but how do I now know where to place plugin c?

I'd either have to force an absolute position (e.g. "plugin c has index 2") - which Vortex already supports. Or it'd have to remember the position relative to the other plugins (e.g. plugin c comes after plugin b), but that's exactly what rules are! That's the only options we have and Vortex supports both. "manual drag&drop" ordering is the same as enforcing absolute indices on all plugins just with a more convenient UI specialised for that scenario.

 

 

So there you have the technical reason why it has not been implemented into Vortex at this time. If you have a good response to that, then please, post it and we can talk about it.

 

You won't change your mind despite numerous perfectly valid arguments

 

 

Except there aren't.

There are two arguments so far:

- "It's always been this way"

- "We're going to annoy you until we get what we want."

Neither of them are good arguments. That's why I'm bothering with this, I'm still waiting to hear what you think is a good argument...

 

 

This repeats what I already said above and what we've been saying for the past 16 pages.

 

So, to recap again, if you've got something new to add or a response to the questions posted in this post, go ahead. If not, pass on by.

 

Thank you.

[HadToRegister]

 

Up to now, no one has repeated them, instead simply referencing "good arguments" that had supposedly already been made that I simply cannot find in this thread. If you think you have a good argument for implementing manual load ordering in Vortex then, legitimately, please post it or repeat it here.

 

I've made a good argument for it, and after I had made a reasonable argument for it, I was told nowhere in my post had I made an argument for it, because apparently the criteria for said argument has been raised so high, that nobody will be able to meet it.

From the I still want the ability to manually drag plugins in the load order and heres why

If that doesn't sound like the title for a reasonable suggestion/argument for manual load ordering, then I don't know what does.

 

 

I still don't get why you can't have LOOT to auto-sort and then allow a manual override for a particular plugin.

 

 

Because that particular mod could have it's own rules and be referenced by other mods and it can be master of another mod or have another mod as its master.

I can of course ignore individual mods for the automatic sorting but how do I then put them into the sorted block? Let's say I have plugins a through d and plugin c shouldn't be auto sorted.

LOOT generates the order b, d, a for the plugins that do get sorted, but how do I now know where to place plugin c?

I'd either have to force an absolute position (e.g. "plugin c has index 2") - which Vortex already supports. Or it'd have to remember the position relative to the other plugins (e.g. plugin c comes after plugin b), but that's exactly what rules are! That's the only options we have and Vortex supports both. "manual drag&drop" ordering is the same as enforcing absolute indices on all plugins just with a more convenient UI specialised for that scenario.

 

 

 

So there you have the technical reason why it has not been implemented into Vortex at this time. If you have a good response to that, then please, post it and we can talk about it.

 

Except that it's not a technical reason at all, it's an excuse to not implement it, and here's why.

You can sort with loot, then manually sort/override where a plugin goes, if loot doesn't like where you put the plugin, it will let you know.

As I've stated much earlier in this thread, I know of people (myself included, and I've been using mod managers since the first one was written by Timeslip, for Morrowind (IIRC), along with MLOX, kind of a LOOT for Morrowind), using LOOT for the purpose of a "Suggestion" as to how their loot order should go, then they either 1). let LOOT do the sorting, or they 2). manually sort the entire load order, or they 3). let LOOT sort the load order, then manually sort what they want/need to manually sort.

Usually a combination of the three.

 

It's being argued, quite incorrectly, to give the impression that "once you sort with LOOT, there's no going back to manual sorting", when in fact, that is not the case, and people have been expressing that in this thread, but they have been ignored.

It's not just one side ignoring the other, in this case both sides (ugh I HATE using that term now) are ignoring each other when it's convenient to do so.

[Dark0ne]

From the I still want the ability to manually drag plugins in the load order and heres why

If that doesn't sound like the title for a reasonable suggestion/argument for manual load ordering, then I don't know what does.

 

 

You're referencing a topic that was answered by Tannin straight away, providing a quick solution to your problem. You've yet to respond to the final post in the thread by Tannin, and you're presenting that as a "good argument" for why manual load ordering should be included, yet it hasn't provided any argument for why manual load ordering should be included.

 

That's not a good argument, that's you wanting a feature. And it's fine to want a feature, but simply wanting a feature doesn't make it a good argument for us doing it in this case.

 

1). let LOOT do the sorting, or they 2). manually sort the entire load order, or they 3). let LOOT sort the load order, then manually sort what they want/need to manually sort.

 

 

Vortex uses LOOT to sort, but if LOOT is somehow wrong or you need to make changes, you can within Vortex. You simply have different tools to do it. The fact of the matter is, Vortex has all the tools to resolve your issue in a timely fashion, but you want to manually sort because that's what you're used to and that's what you think is best for the situation. What we're looking for is an explanation of when you think it's best to use manual sorting over Vortex sorting (literally, a detailed and extensive use-case scenario, not a hypothetical), why you think it's best, and why you think Vortex's tools don't cut it. From the sheer number of posts you've made in these forums over the past few months, time and again the issue has been a lack of understanding of how Vortex works rather than a lack of functionality within Vortex. That's most certainly not intended as a dig at you, as it shows us that, somewhere in Vortex, we haven't got the UI or documentation up to scratch for your use-type.

 

It's being argued, quite incorrectly, to give the impression that "once you sort with LOOT, there's no going back to manual sorting", when in fact, that is not the case, and people have been expressing that in this thread, but they have been ignored.

 

 

Some people have been saying that (though some haven't even used the software), but they've yet to actually provide an example for which Tannin cannot provide an answer of how Vortex's functionality solves the issue.

 

I've removed the fluff at the end of your post as it has no relevance to what we're talking about.