Simple manual load ordering plz

[HadToRegister]

But you chose not to read my postings, obviously.

 

I've been trying to find an 'ignore' button in the forums, like they had in the old Bethesda forums, but to no avail.

I don't need you to act as an interpreter for Me, and I'm tired of you acting as an interpreter for everybody else, and helping to fan the flames, while acting innocent.

 

[Dark0ne]

 

 

Gee, now where have I heard argument methods like this before..... oh right. 2nd grade!

 

 

An upgrade from 1st grade, where you point fingers at people and make things up, eh! Brilliant.

 

We've all been there, where someone has misconstrued something someone else has said on the internet. I won't hold it against you.

 

Ah, the old "NO U!" meme in disguise. I'm sure we could go at this all day, but why?

 

For the record, I did not misconstrue anything. Your employee has simply been so stubborn he doesn't see his own preconceptions as a problem and would rather ague with everyone about it for 90 pages. We're up to 21. Got a long way to go I think.

 

In the end, doesn't affect me. Wrye Bash does all I ever need done and if I should desire playing with LOOT, I can do so without being forced to stick to it despite the LOOT authors themselves saying in their own documentation that it is NOT the final solution to load order.

 

 

But why, you ask?

 

You claimed I had "Subtly [threatened] to ban [HeyYou]" over his petty posting in this thread. I most certainly did not do that. I told him his posts would be removed from this thread if they got any more petty. So yes, you did misconstrue, and misrepresent, the situation.

 

You seem to be talking with me about something else entirely now. Everything else in your response to me is utterly irrelevant to what you originally responded to me on.

 

You, of all people, calling other people stubborn as well. My oh my. If the community came up with a list of stubborn people, we'd all be on it. Pot, kettle, black, comes to mind.

[HadToRegister]

 

If the community came up with a list of stubborn people, we'd all be on it.

 

 

http://favoritememes.com/_nw/82/30127858.jpg

[Tannin42]

And in having to resort to using Wrye Bash to accomplish this, you have invalidated any reason to be using Vortex for games Wrye Bash supports. So why bother? You already have the feature you seek in Wrye Bash.

Because rearranging the load order directly is the only purpose of a mod manager... :rolleyes:

You know what tool gives you even more direct and faster control over the load order? Notepad. Seriously, you can just cut and paste whole blocks of plugins and nothing is going to stop you from putting them wherever you want. It's the ultimate export tool because we all know: the more basic the more professional. That's why the space shuttle is built using tools made of wood and stone.

 

For the record, I did not misconstrue anything.

It's literally the only thing you have been doing for those last few pages.

 

Your employee has simply been so stubborn he doesn't see his own preconceptions as a problem and would rather ague with everyone about it for 90 pages. We're up to 21. Got a long way to go I think.

This is so rich: People keeping this thread going, people who don't even use the tool, complaining that I reply to them. So effectively you're whining over the fact I'm not letting you have the last word. Poor you.

 

 

This.

 

LOOT was conceived because of shortcomings in how BOSS had to operate to fulfill its goals at the time. Someone else mentioned it, not in the mood to quote it all back for them, but if BOSS had no masterlist entry, a mod would be dumped at the end of the load order. So what did the user then need to do? Move it manually and then pester the BOSS devs to do something about it. Thousands of mods made this situation untenable.

 

Now we have tool devs seriously trying to bring those days back by insisting that something LOOT gets wrong be added to the masterlist to correct it. OK. Fine. Who is qualified to assess this? The user? The mod author? Vortex devs? LOOT devs? The answer is nobody. Imposing one group's decision on the other groups is just plain arrogant. The solution is staring everyone in the face. Let the user move it manually and be done with it.

 

The addition of user based rules for LOOT has not simplified any of this. It's made it orders of magnitude more complex. The longer this is allowed to go on, the more users will start asking about it. Mod authors are not the ones who should get stuck dealing with the consequences of bad design decisions.

Just for the record: Vortex has been out for almost 7 month, it has well over 12000 active users (a lot more who have at least tried it) and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single actual case where someone had to get the masterlist changed.

I also took a quick look at the comment sections of some of your biggest files, there hasn't been a single user asking for help about using Vortex with them.

So maybe, just maybe, you're making a big fuzz over nothing?

 

I for one will simply tell people not to use Vortex at all if it starts coming to that.

You already do that so that's quite the empty thread...

[Arthmoor]

Maybe, Arthmoor, you're the one to be stubborn? Ever thought of that?

 

Especially since you never even TRIED to use the tool like it was supposed to (and neither has your comrade "Hey You"), I can't really take you seriously. Especially since your arguments are not rational to me.

 

I don't know why you hate rules so much. Especially since they're mostly community made. A mod author could also add his own understanding of the correct load order into the LOOT masterlist, if he has a good reason for a certain order. Isn't that the perfect thing for any mod author? Less hassle and support problems because user mess up the load order themselves?

 

 

With one thing you're right, though: Using an external tool to mess with the load order because Vortex doesn't allow to do it with drag-and-drop (you'd have to click on the "group" selector instead) is really a bad idea.

I have, but no, I'm simply trying to put forth the argument. Rather than addressing it though, you and Tannin's other minions have chosen to attack me personally instead of trying to explain why I've supposedly been doing load order wrong all these years.

 

I see no reason to try something that lacks a critical core feature I need. Surely you can see that I don't need to download it and wreck my game just to find this out the hard way, right? Not one of you has done anything to convince me of the error of my ways and give a rules-only system a try. Especially when the LOOT people say not to rely on it exclusively.

 

That's a bit like trying to argue I need to buy a Mac and use OS X before I can conclude it's not something I want to spend my money on because it's not suitable for what I need the computer for.

 

Because rearranging the load order directly is the only purpose of a mod manager... :rolleyes:

Certainly not, but I'm not asking you to include mod installation since Vortex already does this. So does Wrye Bash, which you quite well know.

 

You know what tool gives you even more direct and faster control over the load order? Notepad.

Yep, works quite well, and I've resorted to doing that on occasion. You'll forgive me though if I found a tool to do that for me that does what I tell it and doesn't let some other API take over control instead.

 

You can also dispense with the silliness about space shuttles and such. That's not an argument, it's just more of the usual I expect when someone has no argument to make.

 

It's literally the only thing you have been doing for those last few pages.

You and he can say that all you like, it doesn't make it true.

 

 

I for one will simply tell people not to use Vortex at all if it starts coming to that.

You already do that so that's quite the empty thread...

 

Actually, no, I have not told anyone not to use it. You're thinking of MO, but that's ok, feel free to make up more bogus reasons to attack me if that's what you want.

 

I'll continue to advise that people use LOOT as a starting point, and adjust things after that if need be. I'll recommend tools which allow them to do this without having to learn a complex rules system to do it. Whether that's NMM or Wrye Bash will depend on how willing the person is to deal with this stuff, but I will not be able to recommend Vortex to anyone who wants full control over their game because it doesn't allow for it.

[UrizenDe]

Just for the record: Vortex has been out for almost 7 month, it has well over 12000 active users (a lot more who have at least tried it) and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single actual case where someone had to get the masterlist changed.

I also took a quick look at the comment sections of some of your biggest files, there hasn't been a single user asking for help about using Vortex with them.

So maybe, just maybe, you're making a big fuzz over nothing?

Question: How would you know if one your users had to get the masterlist changed?

 

And secondly, mods change. Mods evolve. And therefore, rules change. And just because you judge the functionality and usability of Vortex on games with well established mods and well established loadorders, where new mods can easily be fit into, doesn´t mean that this will always be the case.

[Grestorn]

 

Maybe, Arthmoor, you're the one to be stubborn? Ever thought of that?

 

Especially since you never even TRIED to use the tool like it was supposed to (and neither has your comrade "Hey You"), I can't really take you seriously. Especially since your arguments are not rational to me.

 

I don't know why you hate rules so much. Especially since they're mostly community made. A mod author could also add his own understanding of the correct load order into the LOOT masterlist, if he has a good reason for a certain order. Isn't that the perfect thing for any mod author? Less hassle and support problems because user mess up the load order themselves?

 

 

With one thing you're right, though: Using an external tool to mess with the load order because Vortex doesn't allow to do it with drag-and-drop (you'd have to click on the "group" selector instead) is really a bad idea.

I have, but no, I'm simply trying to put forth the argument. Rather than addressing it though, you and Tannin's other minions have chosen to attack me personally instead of trying to explain why I've supposedly been doing load order wrong all these years.

 

Sorry that you feel that way, but I have nowhere attacked you personally. I've said that you might want to consider to look at yourself as well when you're telling other people that they're stubborn. And that's hardly a personal attack, is it?

 

I see no reason to try something that lacks a critical core feature I need. Surely you can see that I don't need to download it and wreck my game just to find this out the hard way, right? Not one of you has done anything to convince me of the error of my ways and give a rules-only system a try. Especially when the LOOT people say not to rely on it exclusively.

 

That's the core issue, isn't it?

 

It was the way you've done it for years, so it must not only be the right way, it must also be the only proper way.

 

It's sad that you mistrust LOOT that much (I realize now, that this whole discussion is actually much more about LOOT than about Vortex). But well, that's just the way it is. It's irrational, it's against the experience of many many people who have been using it.

 

That you misinterpret the statement of the LOOT guys is another thing. I'm absolutely sure that you are very intelligent, so I'm sure that you realize that their statement is just meant to say "we cannot guarantee with 100% that each sorting decision of LOOT will be the best one".

That might be the reason why they introduced the functionality to add custom rules and configurable groups, might it not?

 

But let's rest this issue. Noone will convince you. And you should also accept that there are people who have different convictions than you. That's the way of life.

 

Just don't use Vortex, fine. Write on your mod descriptions that you'll stop to support any user who dares to use Vortex, fine. The only persons you're hurting that way are the users of your mods, but that's your prerogative.

 

I have made up my mind about you and nothing you do can really shock me any longer.

[HeyYou]

 

Yes, set up your rules. There's the rub. How do you know which rules you need to set up? By trying some out, and seeing if it works the way you want it to? That is exactly what I want to be able to do by simply dragging one mod to a new position, and test to see if it works there. Sure, I could 'set a rule' that should put it in the correct spot, but, then we have the example from previously in this thread, where a member specified a mod to load after another one, and instead of moving the mod in question, vortex moved the OTHER mod before the mod he was playin' with. (the logic behind that method simply escapes me.)

a) how is this so hard to understand? ABCD, ABDC, ACDB, ACBD, ADCB, ADBC, BACD, BCAD, BADC, BCAD - all of these fulfill the rule "D after A". If that's your only rule/dependency they are all valid orders. LOOT can choose any one of these. The rule "D after A" says nothing about B and C, whether those are before A, after D or between the two is "undefined" and thus pretty much random. It doesn't matter how the plugins were ordered before, nor does the order in which you set up the rules matter.

b) Maybe just try Vortex? loot groups lets you move a mod to the end of the list very easily and index lock lets you very quickly put a single mod at any index you want, if testing is all you want.

 

There is a direct quote from the Loot Readme file. It is not a be-all, end-all solution. There are cases where users are required to intervene. Sure, it's DAMN good, but, not 100%.

Which is why there are userlists and vortex lets you edit those, user intervention is possible with vortex just fine.

 

So you write software for the lowest common denominator, but, leave out features advanced users want.

 

Insisting on direct drag&drop load ordering does not make you an advanced user, that's like saying "advanced woodcutters use an axe, chainsaws are for newbies".

Calling yourself an advanced user also doesn't make you one, it just makes you an arrogant user.

Vortex works fine both for beginners and advanced users.

That's not to say that preferring a different UI is "wrong" but claiming Vortex can't do what you asked for at all is wrong.

 

LOLOLOL.

 

And you think I am arrogant??? BLACK!!!! BLACK!!!!

 

Your condescending attitude is one of my biggest issues at this point. Quite frankly, I don't have the faintest idea why I am even bothering any more. It is patently obvious you have already made up your mind, and are NOT going to implement this particular feature, regardless of what arguments anyone comes up with. I believe that your idea of what constitutes a 'valid argument' in favor of manual drag and drop are quite literally impossible to meet. Here we are on page 22, and the argument has become circular.

 

Tell ya what, you can have the last word here, as I am done with this particular bit of mental masturbation. I am quite sure you will have some really good disparaging parting words, that I intend to completely ignore.

 

I'm out. Bye Now.

[Grestorn]

Question: How would you know if one your users had to get the masterlist changed?

 

And secondly, mods change. Mods evolve. And therefore, rules change. And just because you judge the functionality and usability of Vortex on games with well established mods and well established loadorders, where new mods can easily be fit into, doesn´t mean that this will always be the case.

Question back: How would you know that a mod suddenly has different load order requirements WITHOUT LOOT/Vortex?

 

The thing is: LOOT gives you the chance that your load order is actually maintained automatically, especially if the mod authors are giving their input to the masterlist themselves. Doesn't that sound like the much better idea than to hope that the users of your mod are actually reading an updated mod description for each update?

 

Or is this again about the fear of the load order getting changed without your knowledge? Then let me repeat: A change in the plugin order doesn't destroy your ongoing game. It just doesn't.

 

 

/Edit: Since I've just read "HeyYou"'s posting something crossed my mind. Arthmoor is obviously offended by people who demand that he implements something he himself doesn't care for (for whatever reason). I wonder if they ever used this kind of language and "When are you finally doing what I demand?!!"-attitude. Then I can certainly understand Arthmoor's anger, for sure. It's just interesting that the sides are reversed in this case.

[Arthmoor]

It was the way you've done it for years, so it must not only be the right way, it must also be the only proper way.

 

It's sad that you mistrust LOOT that much (I realize now, that this whole discussion is actually much more about LOOT than about Vortex). But well, that's just the way it is. It's irrational, it's against the experience of many many people who have been using it.

This is the core of the entire problem with your side of the argument. You've assumed it's out of distrust for LOOT. That's not true. The LOOT devs themselves have said not to rely on it as the only solution to load order. They say you should adjust things with both personal rules (which Vortex implements) and manual adjustments (which Tannin thinks is evil).

 

That you misinterpret the statement of the LOOT guys is another thing.

I'm not misinterpreting them at all. I have contact with them and have for years. Their position is as I have stated it. You're attempting to misrepresent that for some reason.

 

I'm absolutely sure that you are very intelligent, so I'm sure that you realize that their statement is just meant to say "we cannot guarantee with 100% that each sorting decision of LOOT will be the best one".

That might be the reason why they introduced the functionality to add custom rules and configurable groups, might it not?

They did indeed have a reason to implement it. What those on your side of this argument consistently ignore is that they don't consider even that rules support to be the end of the journey. Merely a stop along the way. It suffices for some people, much like using the masterlist as it exist does. But every other mod manager gives you one final tool in the chest to complete that - manual positioning. Which Vortex will not be getting. Which thus makes it an incomplete mod manager.

 

The only persons you're hurting that way are the users of your mods, but that's your prerogative.

Nope. I have found that users I pass advice along to often follow it and find that, yes, indeed, the old ways are also the better ways.

 

I have made up my mind about you and nothing you do can really shock me any longer.

IMO, you had your mind made up from the beginning. I find this to be true in pretty much every case where I make a perfectly valid argument but the person I'm talking to thinks that's just stupid. You are not special and I expected this. I expect it from everyone at this point. Intolerance of opposing viewpoints is far too common in people today.