Simple manual load ordering plz

[4estGimp]

So your claim is that Vortex/LOOT produces a non-functional order. This should be easy ot verify. What order does Vortex generate and which of the mods don't work then?

Yes, it was easy to verify. I had already loaded somewhere around 60 mods, including the posted UI section, tested FO4, and THEN made the forum post. The icon libraries had not shown properly. The Vortex load-out produced text rather than icons. After I had set 6-8 rules into the UI section, Vortex moved Armorsmith to AFTER the UI section. That was when I gave up the virtual whack-a-mole game. So yes, "I claim" because that's I experienced. Today I saw that Vortex installed mods in not only it's own folder which I had designated, but also blew up my FO4 data folder with every activated mod. I was rather enjoying having a clean data folder with MO2. So Vortex is now uninstalled and will be re-tested at another time.

[Tannin42]

@4estGimp: With what you provided I can not verify your claim. I asked you for the load order Vortex created and which mod specifically caused the problem.

You didn't provide the load order and suddenly we're talking about "the icon libraries" when yesterday you posted the mods with their actual names.

 

I find it hilarious that for 3 months people are whining about how vortex/loot presumably creates invalid load orders but whenever I ask for specifics the answers become even more fuzzy and no one is able to reproduce because of course they uninstalled Vortex. Is it really that hard to create a screenshot of the load order Vortex generates and then write "this is the load order I got from automatic sorting and mod x doesn't work like that"?

 

@euph: If I didn't listen to people I wouldn't be posting here. But listening to users doesn't automatically mean doing whatever they demand. The fact is that a lot of people have complained about the feature but so far not a single one has been able to provide a concrete, demonstrable case that would allow me to verify.

As far as I know, at this point, 4estGimp may have never actually used vortex for sorting or misconfigured it or there might be a bug in the implementation causing an incorrect load order or it may actually be a conceptual problem with auto sorting.

Depending on which it is I either need to do nothing, improve the documentation, fix the bug or introduce manual load ordering. I don't know and I won't know if everyone refuses to provide the information I ask for but with every unsubstantiated complaint it looks more and more like the problem isn't actually with Vortex.

 

So because I'm listening to the complaints I have to come to the conclusion that there isn't an actual problem with how vortex orders the plugins but with a general resistance to change that was always to be expected.

So sorry, but I'm not going to waste a lot of development time on something that at this point is almost certainly a non-issue.

You're welcome to try and convince me otherwise. With arguments. But don't expect to change my mind just because the same demand gets repeated a lot.

[Deleted53237921User]

Here is a specific example from my grandfathers notes on his Fallout 4 mods.

 

 

 

I have three mods which update the form dn_PowerArmor. I have created a fourth that sort of consolidates the other three, taking the salient naming rules from the other three. I decided that this would be my test case for Vortex as there is a specific order that these three mods need to be in. Then there is my mod which combines the best of all three so that they work together without stepping on each other. Mine has to be last because mods and the forms they contain are a LIFO stack. The last one in the list "wins" and is the one that gets used.

 

After slogging through the "documentation" (which is woefully inadequate to the task unless you are a visual learner), I finally got Vortex installed and was able to get the list of esp files to show up in the Vortex load order management tool. I then "removed" a bunch of mods for simplicity.

 

The load order I want was as listed above. What I got was something else entirely, and my mod was the first one in the load order (not what I need for my mod to work). After I fiddled and fussed (and fumed), I finally got the load order I wanted by adjusting the "rules" for "load order".

 

But the rules are not as advertised. I decided that since I was going to supply my own dn_PowerArmor that the first three could really be in any order, as long as mine was the winner. So I created a rule that said that my mod went after the last mod that Vortex put in the list. What I got was that last mod was moved BEFORE my mod and not after the other mod as the rule was coded. My expectation was that by telling the vortex rule that my mod went AFTER the last mod that my mod would move to the end of the last. Two more rules later and my load order was satisfactory as my mod would be last.

 

Vortex default (abbreviated A, B, C, Dev):

 

Dev

A

B

C

 

After adding the rule Dev after C, I expected to get:

 

A

B

C

Dev

but what I got was:

 

C

Dev

A

B

Vortex did NOT place Dev after C. Vortex placed C before Dev, and that is neither what I wanted nor what the word "after" implies.

 

Two more rules later (C after B and B after A) I finally get:

 

A

B

C

Dev

Now by comparison, to do this same placement in NMM, I simply click my mod and either use the up-and-down-arrows in the left margin or drag-and-drop my mod into the position I want. The rest of the order is unaffected. But Vortex completely reordered the list based on a single rule.

 

And Vortex is advertised as being easier? I documented all of this in one of the feedback forums.

Transcribed from my grandfather's chicken scratches and the wording has been changed to remove some of the more colorful vocabulary.

 

My grandfather then went on to make some other observations which I will omit here because he also states that "Robin deleted my comments with a rather stern warning about 'bashing' Tannin". I am assuming that by Robin my grandfather was referring to Dark0ne.

 

My grandfather did not list the mods he worked with but a quick peek into his NMM files show that the mods are:

 

Power Armor Naming Overhaul (PANO) - https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/23696

Power Armor Paint Jobs - https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/23696

All Vanilla Power Armor Digital Paint - https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/23700

 

The mod he was working on is not published, but I suspect that four empty ESP files would suffice to reproduce the problem he documented.

 

I have not tested this as my grandfather uninstalled Vortex and went back to NMM (which I just upgraded with the new release with the security patches).

 

I hope that this sufficiently documents one of the many challenges with the tool for managing load order in Vortex.

[Tannin42]

Thank you for the reply.

 

Here is a specific example from my grandfathers notes on his Fallout 4 mods.

I have three mods which update the form dn_PowerArmor. I have created a fourth that sort of consolidates the other three, taking the salient naming rules from the other three. I decided that this would be my test case for Vortex as there is a specific order that these three mods need to be in. Then there is my mod which combines the best of all three so that they work together without stepping on each other. Mine has to be last because mods and the forms they contain are a LIFO stack. The last one in the list "wins" and is the one that gets used.

After slogging through the "documentation" (which is woefully inadequate to the task unless you are a visual learner), I finally got Vortex installed and was able to get the list of esp files to show up in the Vortex load order management tool. I then "removed" a bunch of mods for simplicity.

The load order I want was as listed above.

Ok, this already indicates an incorrect mindset. Vortex load ordering isn't intended to give you one specific load order, it supports you in finding a working load order.
Your goal shouldn't be "I want this specific load order" but "I want my own mod to be loaded last among these three mods".

 

What I got was something else entirely, and my mod was the first one in the load order (not what I need for my mod to work).

Which I can't rule out but of course I can also not try myself because it's not a published mod.
Obviously a custom plugin is very possibly not being sorted automatically because if the "algorithmical" sorting fails there isn't going to be a masterlist entry.

 

After I fiddled and fussed (and fumed), I finally got the load order I wanted by adjusting the "rules" for "load order".

How? What's the point of this if we can't follow what you/he did so we can evaluate if it was actually more work than manual load ordering.

This is indeed pretty much the worst case anyone can encounter with load ordering in vortex: A custom plugin that is not recognised and placed in the worst place possible,
but that shouldn't be too surprising when it's a new mod. But even then, what you have to do is
Click the "connect" icon on the custom plugin, click edit, then check the three mods it conflicts with and confirm.
How this takes longer than 5 seconds or any amount of fiddling or fussing and fuming I do not follow.

 

But the rules are not as advertised. I decided that since I was going to supply my own dn_PowerArmor that the first three could really be in any order, as long as mine was the winner. So I created a rule that said that my mod went after the last mod that Vortex put in the list. What I got was that last mod was moved BEFORE my mod and not after the other mod as the rule was coded.

How is this different than advertised? It just shows, again, that the author doesn't even understand how loot/rule based ordering works - but still thinks he knows it's bad.
When you set a rule "a after b" that means exactly that: a needs to be after b. That rule says nothing about any other plugin. it does not say which plugin gets moved or how many other plugins may be between a and b.
Because one rule resolves one conflict. It is not a "change instruction".

 

My expectation was that by telling the vortex rule that my mod went AFTER the last mod that my mod would move to the end of the last.

 

wrong expectation is all.

 

 

Now by comparison, to do this same placement in NMM, I simply click my mod and either use the up-and-down-arrows in the left margin or drag-and-drop my mod into the position I want. The rest of the order is unaffected.

 

Yes, in this extreme case, the old system would be marginally faster, my estimate would be 3 seconds instead of 5. but in regards to all the other plugins that you didn't build yourself it saves you hours of going through mod install instructions trying to figure out the best order for existing plugins. So effectively it's still a big win.

Plus: setting a rule is a one-time cost, you never have to set them again. With NMM and others, if your plugin order gets messed up (e.g. because you changed profiles or disabled mods to search for a problem) you're going to be doing a lot of drag&drop again.

Rules are saved separately from the plugin order and don't get lost when the plugin order gets "shuffled".

 

 

But Vortex completely reordered the list based on a single rule.

 

Vortex reorders the list completely every time you hit sort and any time it autosorts (if enabled).

 

And Vortex is advertised as being easier?

 

Vortex is easier in use. That doesn't mean there is no learning involved when switching from a different tool. But it should be obviously that sticking with the same tool has less of a learning curve than getting a new one...

 

 

 

The mod he was working on is not published, but I suspect that four empty ESP files would suffice to reproduce the problem he documented.

 

No, because since loot analyses the content of the plugins to do its algorithmical sorting how could four empty esps stand in for four non-empty esps?

 

 

 

I hope that this sufficiently documents one of the many challenges with the tool for managing load order in Vortex.

 

It documents the challenge, yes, but the cause - from where I'm standing - is that people don't understand how loot works, not that it doesn't work or is too limiting. This situation is trivial to resolve in Vortex.

The solution to this challenge would be a more intuitive ui or better documentation, not an alternative method for ordering.

[Jebbalon]

 

 

Tannin wrote:

Vortex reorders the list completely every time you hit sort and any time it autosorts (if enabled).

I haven't tried Vortex yet so forgive me if this is common knowledge....

After setting up a load order and starting to play the game..... I'd have Autosort off obviously. But, is there a "Lock" feature for the Sort button so that I don't accidentally click it ?

Changing the load order after starting game isn't good.

AND... if I choose to install mods later ... how would I go about ensuring that they simply load at the end of order so as to not sort thus changing the order of the mods above ?

[Tannin42]

I haven't tried Vortex yet so forgive me if this is common knowledge....

After setting up a load order and starting to play the game..... I'd have Autosort off obviously. But, is there a "Lock" feature for the Sort button so that I don't accidentally click it ?

Changing the load order after starting game isn't good.

AND... if I choose to install mods later ... how would I go about ensuring that they simply load at the end of order so as to not sort thus changing the order of the mods above ?

 

 

Why? The game reads the plugin.txt on startup, it should not care if the file changes after starting.

 

Or are you talking about the situation where you load a save game and the plugin order is different from when the save game was created?

I'm actually only aware of one or two mods that causes a problem if they change mod index, probably because they use skse to write out formids.

For such mods you can lock the mod index.

 

Also, the save game actually saves the order of plugins used when saving it. Vortex has a function to enable plugins based on a savegame. Afaik it doesn't currently restore the order but it's on the todo list.

[Grestorn]

Actually, NMM has "trained" people to care a lot about the plugin order where it was never really necessary. They should ALWAYS just have used LOOT (which was quite complicated and problematic to do with NMM) instead of fiddeling manually with the plugin order.

 

The plugin order is MUCH less important than most people think, with only a few exceptions.

[sopmac45]

@4estGimp: With what you provided I can not verify your claim. I asked you for the load order Vortex created and which mod specifically caused the problem.

You didn't provide the load order and suddenly we're talking about "the icon libraries" when yesterday you posted the mods with their actual names.

 

I find it hilarious that for 3 months people are whining about how vortex/loot presumably creates invalid load orders but whenever I ask for specifics the answers become even more fuzzy and no one is able to reproduce because of course they uninstalled Vortex. Is it really that hard to create a screenshot of the load order Vortex generates and then write "this is the load order I got from automatic sorting and mod x doesn't work like that"?

 

@euph: If I didn't listen to people I wouldn't be posting here. But listening to users doesn't automatically mean doing whatever they demand. The fact is that a lot of people have complained about the feature but so far not a single one has been able to provide a concrete, demonstrable case that would allow me to verify.

As far as I know, at this point, 4estGimp may have never actually used vortex for sorting or misconfigured it or there might be a bug in the implementation causing an incorrect load order or it may actually be a conceptual problem with auto sorting.

Depending on which it is I either need to do nothing, improve the documentation, fix the bug or introduce manual load ordering. I don't know and I won't know if everyone refuses to provide the information I ask for but with every unsubstantiated complaint it looks more and more like the problem isn't actually with Vortex.

 

So because I'm listening to the complaints I have to come to the conclusion that there isn't an actual problem with how vortex orders the plugins but with a general resistance to change that was always to be expected.

So sorry, but I'm not going to waste a lot of development time on something that at this point is almost certainly a non-issue.

You're welcome to try and convince me otherwise. With arguments. But don't expect to change my mind just because the same demand gets repeated a lot.

 

 

Tannin ... in my case I have never been against Vortex; on the contrary, I have been giving my support to this project since the very first moment it was announced, even though, I did not know who you were and your reputation for being the creator of MO. Also, I do not want to go back to NMM even though I know it is very simply to use, so I do not have any "resistance to change" as you pointed out in your above response. Learning is the only thing ahead in this life and I am not afraid to evolution and changes.

 

But I am a working man. I am not a teenager playing games the whole day. I do work and I work very hard to bring my rice and beans to my table. In my spare time, I do play, and I would love to sit down and play my games ( Fallout 4 and / or Skyrim ) without facing the frustration of CTD's or because the game is not stable because I do not know how to use Vortex. That is my frustration, not to know exactly what to do is what really bothers me.

 

I see people responding in this thread that somehow, they already know how to manage Vortex, like Grestorn, who IMHO, he knows already what to do and good for him. I wish I could have his knowledge, or yours, so I could handle Vortex and I would not be adding more letters to this thread or any other related to Vortex, but the fact is that still I do not know it as I would love to.

 

Point is : Vortex is still in Alpha but I hope that when the time comes, somehow Nexus gives us some instructions, samples, details and procedures so I can learn it. My only complain is that we are missing information. I am not asking your or whoever is in charge, to provide to us with a 1000 page PDF manual. I am asking for more information and samples. Some people learn by just reading, others need to see graphical samples, others tutorials, etc, etc. So far, Gopher did a great job with his tutorials but they are not even close ( I am really sorry if somebody get offended ) to what I have learned by participating in the Vortex feedback forum more than watching Gopher's tutorials which are not explaining how to manage load order, the concept behind Vortex, dependencies, etc, etc, etc. ........

 

Jeez ... if I would know this program, I would provide samples because I have been a trainer before, I know how to explain things I know, but, I do not know Vortex enough for me to be able to teach others. I know ( because you told me already ) that you are not that good teaching or explaining things, so I do not expect that you teach us this or that, but there are others and I would love to see well made tutorials to explain things that in this very thread we have been talking.

 

I am very sure that when somebody do that, everybody will be happy. It is not rocket science for somebody with knowledge, to explain things, as far as you are willing to teach others. If you could just ask somebody to do that, that would be nice.

 

This is your own answer provided to me before :

 

Both are wrong.

CORRECT PATH:

1. Like you said: Install mods, resolve conflicts only when there are conflicts

2. Plugins: enable plugins if necessary. Use dependencies only if you have problems in-game. Then, and only then, try to figure out which plugin(s) are the cause and see if their mod authors have provided compatibility instructions.

3. no step 3. Just leave auto-sort enabled and you don't need another step. do not run loot. You can click the sort button if you want to see the sorted list immediately but it's not necessary.

 

​>> After I have done what you said above and following your advise by the letter, I do have a doubt that I would appreciate if you clarify for me so I can consolidate it :

 

If I use dependencies because I find problems in-game and leave auto-sort enabled, then Vortex will change the load order, am I right ?

If so, does not changing the load order mid-game contributes to crashes ?

 

Somebody in this thread said that load order is not important but rules and dependencies, and if that is correct, then DEFINITELY I would need more training. My problem is not "rejecting", no, I embrace Vortex 100% but I must learn it so my frustration will vanish. Vortex is something new, completely different from NMM, so please, give us the training and information that we need so we can learn it as we should. That is the only thing I am missing.

[Jebbalon]

 

I haven't tried Vortex yet so forgive me if this is common knowledge....

After setting up a load order and starting to play the game..... I'd have Autosort off obviously. But, is there a "Lock" feature for the Sort button so that I don't accidentally click it ?

Changing the load order after starting game isn't good.

AND... if I choose to install mods later ... how would I go about ensuring that they simply load at the end of order so as to not sort thus changing the order of the mods above ?

 

 

Why? The game reads the plugin.txt on startup, it should not care if the file changes after starting.

 

Or are you talking about the situation where you load a save game and the plugin order is different from when the save game was created?

I'm actually only aware of one or two mods that causes a problem if they change mod index, probably because they use skse to write out formids.

For such mods you can lock the mod index.

 

Also, the save game actually saves the order of plugins used when saving it. Vortex has a function to enable plugins based on a savegame. Afaik it doesn't currently restore the order but it's on the todo list.

 

Yes, I meant changing order after starting a play through - not while the game is running.

My experience is that the practice of not changing load order after starting a playthrough (other than to add mods at the end of load order) has worked quite well for me - thought I'd ask about the use of vortex in this regard.

I'll just remember to avoid that Sort button.

[Tannin42]

But I am a working man. I am not a teenager playing games the whole day. I do work and I work very hard to bring my rice and beans to my table. In my spare time, I do play, and I would love to sit down and play my games ( Fallout 4 and / or Skyrim ) without facing the frustration of CTD's or because the game is not stable because I do not know how to use Vortex. That is my frustration, not to know exactly what to do is what really bothers me.

But that's the whole point of this: You usually don't have to do anything. There is nothing further to explain here. Install your mods, enable them, verify your plugins

are enabled. All of this is just like with every other mod manager. Except that with vortex you don't have to do the last step of arranging your plugins.

How much documentation do we need about not doing something?

The suggestion is to use rules when you know about a plugin conflict. But this implies that you know about the conflict, so again: there is nothing to document.

Either you know about the conflict, then you know what rule to introduce. Or you don't, then the game will teach you about the conflict by crashing.

Sure, in this case you need to investigate it, but this is what you did with other mod managers all the time, for every mod before playing.

 

In conclusion: With Vortex you do the same steps as you did with other mod managers just a lot less of it.

 

If I use dependencies because I find problems in-game and leave auto-sort enabled, then Vortex will change the load order, am I right ?

If so, does not changing the load order mid-game contributes to crashes ?

 

No. As I said above: Changing the load order is, with very few exceptions, safe. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that you need to rebuild patches when the order of the patched plugins changes.

There are two situations I can think of where changing the load order will be problematic:

a) The plugin stores formids somehow. In this case, changing the load order will invalidate those formids. This should not cause a crash but may reset part of the mod. e.g. this mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/8066 (Bag of Holding) apparently restarts a quest, but nothing breaks. These cases are a minor inconvenience, not a crash

b) The plugin has an associated bsa that includes a script. Now in the case the load order changes and that change leads to a different variant of the same script become loaded last the games from skyrim will continue to use the script that was used when you started playing the save game - which may be incompatible with newly added scripts.

But this very uncommon case would be just as problematic with any other mod manager because it happens from adding the mods, not from re-arranging existing plugins.

The only confusing bit is that re-arranging the load order may not have the expected effect, because the scripts will not follow the re-configured load order.

 

Yes, I meant changing order after starting a play through - not while the game is running.

My experience is that the practice of not changing load order after starting a playthrough (other than to add mods at the end of load order) has worked quite well for me - thought I'd ask about the use of vortex in this regard.

I'll just remember to avoid that Sort button.

 

My experience is that the practice of carrying a rock in my pocket has worked quite well in protecting me from bears. I've never been attacket by a bear. ;)

 

I could be wrong but as I said above: to my knowledge, and from my experience, changing the load order after starting a playthrough is usually not problematic.