Simple manual load ordering plz

[Grestorn]

I've been adding, removing and changing mods in my ongoing playthroughs many many times. This never caused any serious problems. The very problems I've seen were only caused by faulty mods or when I removed a mod which left stale scripts in the saved games (which usually can be resolved with Fallrim).

 

Of course sometimes you end up with a mod not working correctly or being party overwritten by another mod, if the plugin order is not set up correctly. That's *really* rare if you're using LOOT/Vortex and usually only occurs if you're using rather obscure mods which Loot doesn't really know about, or if you're using a very unusual combination of conflicting mods.

 

I usually do read and check the mod order rules listed by the mod's author, but only in so far as if he's writing "my mod has to be loaded after/before mod xy!" then I'll check if Vortex/Loot already took care of that (which, in 99% of the cases is true). Otherwise I'd add a rule. I had to set up some rules in LOOT for obscure mods (LL :smile: ) back in my Oldrim setup, but in my current SSE and SkyrimVR setup, I don't have to use a *single* rule, Loot/Vortex does a perfect sorting job just all by itself.

 

Also, some mod authors don't CLEARLY distinguish between the overwriting of loose files, like textures and meshes (i.e. the load order on Vortex' mod tab) and the order of the plugins (i.e. Vorex' plugin tab). They're are a fundamentally different thing. I'm still not sure if everyone understands that.

Overwriting a mod's loose files in a different order usually just means that you get different textures or models for the overwritten items. In very rare cases, there can be problems (e.g. a wrong mesh can cause a crash or other problems). But the order of loose files has always(!) to be managed by the user himself! Neither NMM nor Vortex will help you there. In NMM you'd have to install the mods in the right order, and to answer the "Overwrite" dialog correctly, to get the right result, where in Vortex you'd just have to change the "Load after" or "Load before" rules on the mod page - which is much easier and can be changed anytime without having to reinstall the whole list of mods overwriting each other.

 

If you ever want to update huge texture mods like SMIM or ever wanted to change which of these mods' textures you see, you know what a pain in the ass THAT can be!

 

The order of the plugins (i.e. in which order the .esm and .esp are listed in plugin.txt) is managed independently and much harder to get right. That's why LOOT/Vortex is there to help the user. A simple "put at the end of the mod list" is not helping at all - especially because every mod author likes to write that. The mod at the bottom of the plugin list always wins ... :smile:

[sopmac45]

@ Tannin ... thanks so much Tannin for answering.

 

@ Grestorn :

(i.e. the load order on Vortex' mod tab) and the order of the plugins (i.e. Vorex' plugin tab). They're are a fundamentally different thing. I'm still not sure if everyone understands that.

 

>> Yes, I do admit it flat and plainly, the above has been my confusion and yes, I need to work on takin off my mind, the concept I have based on having been working with NMM for a long time.

 

"" In NMM you'd have to install the mods in the right order, and to answer the "Overwrite" dialog correctly, to get the right result, where in Vortex you'd just have to change the "Load after" or "Load before" rules on the mod page - which is much easier and can be changed anytime without having to reinstall the whole list of mods overwriting each other. """

 

>> I do admit, I have been downloading/installing mods in the order suggested by several websites about recommended Skyrim load orders and stuff ........ so based on what you are saying, it does really matter ( with Vortex ) in what order mods are installed / enabled but the rules between then, which one goes "before" or "after", etc, etc., am I right ?

I have a sample, if you do not mind Grestorn, in my current game, Vivid Weathers was installed last; Vortex was indicating there was a conflict, so I clicked on Vivid Weathers red bolt and the conflict screen opened up, I chose Vivid Weather to LOAD AFTER every single mod listed in that window because I wanted Vivid Weathers to win every single conflict ..... is this correct ? Basically when I setup my rules in the mod page, my last installed mod which conflict with other, is chosen to be "load after" so I do not get into a cycling errors ... am I doing it right or not ?

Before I was choosing, this one before and that one after, and it did not work properly, so this time I am simplifying by just "load after" whatever other mod is conflicting with. Please let me know or Tannin ... thank you both ... :cool:

[Tannin42]

I have a sample, if you do not mind Grestorn, in my current game, Vivid Weathers was installed last; Vortex was indicating there was a conflict, so I clicked on Vivid Weathers red bolt and the conflict screen opened up, I chose Vivid Weather to LOAD AFTER every single mod listed in that window because I wanted Vivid Weathers to win every single conflict ..... is this correct ? Basically when I setup my rules in the mod page, my last installed mod which conflict with other, is chosen to be "load after" so I do not get into a cycling errors ... am I doing it right or not ?

Before I was choosing, this one before and that one after, and it did not work properly, so this time I am simplifying by just "load after" whatever other mod is conflicting with. Please let me know or Tannin ... thank you both ... :cool:

 

Yes, this is the easiest way to do it.

 

Tbh I think introducing "Load before" as a rule type might have been a mistake, you don't need it. My advise would be: use only "load after" for consistency.

 

So you open the conflict dialog (red bolt) on the mod you want to load last (vivid weathers in this case), and select it to "load after" on everything. Then continue to the next mod that still has a red bolt that you want to load late and set it to load after all of its remaining conflicts (but not conflicts with vivid weather since you already resolved that! It should show a little i icon on the right saying something like "Vivid Weather already has a rule referencing this mod").

Continue until you have no more red bolts.

 

If you're unclear what rules that conflict dialog creates, read it from top left to bottom right, which should be intuitive (unless you're Arabic or Isreali or speak some other right-to-left language in which case: sorry for being counterintuitive)

 

So you have

"Vivid Weather" in the header

and then multiple lines below with

"Load after" Mod A

"Load after" Mod B

"Load after" Mod C

so the rules it creates are "Vivid Weather loads after Mod A", "Vivid Weather loads after Mod B" and "Vivid Weather loads after Mod C"

[Grestorn]

The order in which you install mods in Vortex does not matter - it does matter in NMM! That's the beauty of Vortex (and MO2, btw), that you can change the order in which the mods are overwriting each other AFTER you've installed them freely.

 

I'll give you an example, to make this easier to understand:

 

Let's say you've got a huge mod, let's call it "A", that modifies the texture of most (but not all) weapons in the game. Another mod, let's call it "B", modifies only a few weapons, some covered by A and some more.

 

"A" modifies (among others)

- Iron dagger

- Iron sword

- Iron 2h sword

- Nettlebane

 

"B" modifies

- Iron dagger

- Nettlebane

- Glass sword

 

So in NMM it would matter, which mod you install first. If you install A first and then B, you'd be asked if B should overwrite the files of A. If you agree, you'd end up with:

- Iron sword and Iron 2h sword from mod A

- Iron Dagger, Nettlebane and Glass Sword from mod B

 

If you install B first, and then A (and chose to overwrite), you'd end up with

- Iron sword, Iron 2h sword, Iron Dagger and Nettlebane from mod A (because it has overwritten the files from B!)

- only Glass sword from mod B (because it's not in mod A and therefore is the only weapon not overwritten by A).

 

 

So to change that (for example you like the Nettlebane better of the other mod), you'd have to uninstall both mods and reinstall them in the different order in NMM

 

With Vortex, however, you don't have to do that. To change which weapon you end up, the one from mod A or the one from mod B, you can just click on the lightning symbol in one of the mods (which becomes red if there's an unresolved conflict), and set a rule, which mod should be loaded first and which after the other. Again, the last mod will win, and only the things it doesn't change will be taken from previously loaded mods.

 

I hope this example is making the load order of the mod's loose files a bit clearer...

 

 

So, now about the load order of plugins. That's actually much more difficult to get right and the consequences of a wrong plugin order is also much more severe - which is why there's LOOT. In the plugin files (.esm, and .esp), everything that's controlling the behaviour of the game is stored. Bascially everything that's not a texture, mesh or some interface files.

 

If two plugins control a different aspect of the game or just add new features and/or items, they're usually not conflicting at all. The order in which they're loaded doesn't matter. But if two mods change the same things - like NPCs, Cells, Quests, Item properties etc, and most importantly Scripts - the order in which they're loaded DOES matter. Again, the plugin that's loaded later wins and overwrites all items changed by previously loaded plugins.

 

The problem is, it can cause all kinds of problems, if parts of a plugin are overwritten - it may end up scripts that don't match with the cells and NPCs, or even the scripts themselves are no longer working correctly if only some of the plugin's scripts are overwritten by another plugin.

 

That's why there are compatibility patches. If you know what you're doing, tools like Tes5Edit or FOEdit (or others) can be used to create merged and fixed plugins. Sometime there's just no other way to resolve conflicts between mods.

 

Anyway, to manage the load load order of plugins manually is really not feasible for the normal user - even for the advanced one. That's why tools like LOOT have been invented.

 

In general Loot has heuristic rules to determine which mod should be loaded before or after which other mod. And then there's the master list containing a huge list of rules created by the community to help with the cases where the heuristics would give the wrong results.

Tannin was faster to answer (it took some time to write this), but I still hope this wall of text helps a bit.

[sopmac45]

 

I have a sample, if you do not mind Grestorn, in my current game, Vivid Weathers was installed last; Vortex was indicating there was a conflict, so I clicked on Vivid Weathers red bolt and the conflict screen opened up, I chose Vivid Weather to LOAD AFTER every single mod listed in that window because I wanted Vivid Weathers to win every single conflict ..... is this correct ? Basically when I setup my rules in the mod page, my last installed mod which conflict with other, is chosen to be "load after" so I do not get into a cycling errors ... am I doing it right or not ?

Before I was choosing, this one before and that one after, and it did not work properly, so this time I am simplifying by just "load after" whatever other mod is conflicting with. Please let me know or Tannin ... thank you both ... :cool:

 

Yes, this is the easiest way to do it.

 

Tbh I think introducing "Load before" as a rule type might have been a mistake, you don't need it. My advise would be: use only "load after" for consistency.

 

So you open the conflict dialog (red bolt) on the mod you want to load last (vivid weathers in this case), and select it to "load after" on everything. Then continue to the next mod that still has a red bolt that you want to load late and set it to load after all of its remaining conflicts (but not conflicts with vivid weather since you already resolved that! It should show a little i icon on the right saying something like "Vivid Weather already has a rule referencing this mod").

Continue until you have no more red bolts.

 

If you're unclear what rules that conflict dialog creates, read it from top left to bottom right, which should be intuitive (unless you're Arabic or Isreali or speak some other right-to-left language in which case: sorry for being counterintuitive)

 

So you have

"Vivid Weather" in the header

and then multiple lines below with

"Load after" Mod A

"Load after" Mod B

"Load after" Mod C

so the rules it creates are "Vivid Weather loads after Mod A", "Vivid Weather loads after Mod B" and "Vivid Weather loads after Mod C"

 

 

Thanks Tannin for confirming what I was doing ... it just re-confirm and solid my knowledge about Vortex .... ( geez I am paying the consequences of a really bad foundation now I guess .... ) ....

 

... just to let you know that when installing mods, I resolve conflicts between them as they appears, because I install / enable mods as they are downloaded.

 

After I did read your response, I checked my mods, clicked on Vivid Landscapes ( other mod that I have and I do like .. ) and this is what I see :

 

Vivid Landscapes

"Load After" -------------> Enhanced Textures ( 3 conflict files )

"Load After" -------------> SMIM ( 20 conflict files )

"Load After" -------------> Quality World Map ( 1 conflict file )

"No Rule" --------------> Ruins Clutter ( 14 conflict files ) ......... I ( (but not conflicts with vivid weather since you already resolved that! It should show a little i icon on the right saying something like "Vivid Weather already has a rule referencing this mod").

"No Rule" ---------------> Skyrim Flora Overhaul ( 14 conflict files ) ..... I ( (but not conflicts with vivid weather since you already resolved that! It should show a little i icon on the right saying something like "Vivid Weather already has a rule referencing this mod").

 

... I copy/paste that important explanation beside the "no rule" mods as a sample. I did not choose "no rule" when I first resolve that conflict but now that the whole mod list is done, Vortex is recognizing which mods are not conflicting anymore and it is choosing "no rule" as rule to avoid cycling errors .... beautiful !!!

[sopmac45]

"" So, now about the load order of plugins. That's actually much more difficult to get right and the consequences of a wrong plugin order is also much more severe - which is why there's LOOT. In the plugin files (.esm, and .esp), everything that's controlling the behaviour of the game is stored. Bascially everything that's not a texture, mesh or some interface files. """

 

​@ Gestorn .... thanks so much Gestorn for all of the explanation, believe me, it will help me and others to understand how this works.

 

​Based on the above entry, after resolving conflicts between mods in the Mod Tab, you are suggesting to simply run LOOT and let LOOT decides which plugin goes first and after in the load order ? What about if I let Vortex auto-sort my plugins and leave LOOT untouched ? Is this wise or should be : run LOOT and if there is a problem mid-game, use "dependencies" and use Vortex auto-sort ? Please advise .... Thanks

 

​@ Tannin ... you answered this before Tannin but I would you please, to re-confirm this if you do not mind. Thanks

[Jebbalon]

...

If I use dependencies because I find problems in-game and leave auto-sort enabled, then Vortex will change the load order, am I right ?

If so, does not changing the load order mid-game contributes to crashes ?

 

No. As I said above: Changing the load order is, with very few exceptions, safe. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that you need to rebuild patches when the order of the patched plugins changes.

There are two situations I can think of where changing the load order will be problematic:

a) The plugin stores formids somehow. In this case, changing the load order will invalidate those formids. This should not cause a crash but may reset part of the mod. e.g. this mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/8066 (Bag of Holding) apparently restarts a quest, but nothing breaks. These cases are a minor inconvenience, not a crash

b) The plugin has an associated bsa that includes a script. Now in the case the load order changes and that change leads to a different variant of the same script become loaded last the games from skyrim will continue to use the script that was used when you started playing the save game - which may be incompatible with newly added scripts.

But this very uncommon case would be just as problematic with any other mod manager because it happens from adding the mods, not from re-arranging existing plugins.

The only confusing bit is that re-arranging the load order may not have the expected effect, because the scripts will not follow the re-configured load order.

 

Yes, I meant changing order after starting a play through - not while the game is running.

My experience is that the practice of not changing load order after starting a playthrough (other than to add mods at the end of load order) has worked quite well for me - thought I'd ask about the use of vortex in this regard.

I'll just remember to avoid that Sort button.

 

My experience is that the practice of carrying a rock in my pocket has worked quite well in protecting me from bears. I've never been attacket by a bear. :wink:

 

I could be wrong but as I said above: to my knowledge, and from my experience, changing the load order after starting a playthrough is usually not problematic.

 

Tannin, your response to sopmac45 right above your response to me is making my point for me... There is no way you can expect every user to not possibly have one of those cases come up. My practice of not changing load order after starting play through eliminates the possibility of one of those happening as I have run into in the past. Even the mods I work on have scripts in bsas and use formid lists that change. It does come up, it is not as uncommon as you say. The issue may be minor but for mod authors trying to troubleshoot what a user is complaining about it's major.

 

After installing everything, sorting with the integrated LOOT, making patches, testing with fake game just to make sure everything is working, correcting anything, ........... My recommendation is lock it down! Turn off Auto Sort and if Vortex had a Lock on the Sort button I'd hit that also. Then play and have fun!

[Tannin42]

"" So, now about the load order of plugins. That's actually much more difficult to get right and the consequences of a wrong plugin order is also much more severe - which is why there's LOOT. In the plugin files (.esm, and .esp), everything that's controlling the behaviour of the game is stored. Bascially everything that's not a texture, mesh or some interface files. """

 

​@ Gestorn .... thanks so much Gestorn for all of the explanation, believe me, it will help me and others to understand how this works.

 

​Based on the above entry, after resolving conflicts between mods in the Mod Tab, you are suggesting to simply run LOOT and let LOOT decides which plugin goes first and after in the load order ? What about if I let Vortex auto-sort my plugins and leave LOOT untouched ? Is this wise or should be : run LOOT and if there is a problem mid-game, use "dependencies" and use Vortex auto-sort ? Please advise .... Thanks

 

​@ Tannin ... you answered this before Tannin but I would you please, to re-confirm this if you do not mind. Thanks

 

Vortex uses an embedded LOOT for the auto sorting so there is no reason to use both. If you use Vortex for autosorting and it's ui to set rules you do not want to touch LOOT.

If you don't want to use Vortex for your load order management for any reason you can disable autosort and go through the official LOOT application or any other tool, but keep in mind that then none of the load order features in Vortex work, neither the "load after" rules nor priorities (or groups in the future) nor the locked mod index.

[Tannin42]

 

Tannin, your response to sopmac45 right above your response to me is making my point for me... There is no way you can expect every user to not possibly have one of those cases come up. My practice of not changing load order after starting play through eliminates the possibility of one of those happening as I have run into in the past. Even the mods I work on have scripts in bsas and use formid lists that change. It does come up, it is not as uncommon as you say. The issue may be minor but for mod authors trying to troubleshoot what a user is complaining about it's major.

 

 

After installing everything, sorting with the integrated LOOT, making patches, testing with fake game just to make sure everything is working, correcting anything, ........... My recommendation is lock it down! Turn off Auto Sort and if Vortex had a Lock on the Sort button I'd hit that also. Then play and have fun!

 

 

It's possible that with the kind of mods I use it's just more rare but I've had mod setups with hundreds of mods myself and I've encountered two mods (across all bethesda games between oblivion and fallout 4) where changing the load order during playthrough would be problematic and both reported the problem immediately after loading the savegame.

If this is more common than I thought it would be very good if you could give me a couple of examples because then I might be underestimating a potential problem.

 

Vortex has a feature to support this exact use case with the option to lock a plugin to a specific mod index while everything else can move around it.

If this is actually a common case, wouldn't it be smart to introduce some form of tag to the loot masterlist, something like "sticky", which loot and vortex could then use to avoid moving the plugin if possible or ask for confirmation if a move is necessary (because of rules or because the list has become too short).

 

A "lock it down" recommendation is overzealous imho, it would be very restricting and could prevent you from making load order changes that are actually necessary to avoid other conflicts. Essentially, if I understand you correctly, you restart the game every time you add a plugin that can't/shouldn't be loaded low in the load order because there might be a plugin that doesn't like being moved?

[Grestorn]

 

Tannin, your response to sopmac45 right above your response to me is making my point for me... There is no way you can expect every user to not possibly have one of those cases come up. My practice of not changing load order after starting play through eliminates the possibility of one of those happening as I have run into in the past. Even the mods I work on have scripts in bsas and use formid lists that change. It does come up, it is not as uncommon as you say. The issue may be minor but for mod authors trying to troubleshoot what a user is complaining about it's major.

 

After installing everything, sorting with the integrated LOOT, making patches, testing with fake game just to make sure everything is working, correcting anything, ........... My recommendation is lock it down! Turn off Auto Sort and if Vortex had a Lock on the Sort button I'd hit that also. Then play and have fun!

 

 

If you're worried about changing your plugin config after you've start a playthrough, why don't you just create a profile for each playthrough and don't touch it after you've started to play?

 

Adding and removing mods is much more dangerous than changing the order of installed mods!