Trump

[Lisnpuppy]

Our political system has been broken for quite some time. The Citizens United decision was just one of the final coffin nails. Today, we have the 'best' government money can buy. And it is bought and sold on the open market every two years. We might just as well call ourselves what we really, in fact, are, an Oligarchy. The rich run the country. Maybe not directly, but darn close to it. Things NEED to change, but, the trouble with that is, the only folks that CAN change it, are the very same folks that benefit the most, from NOT changing it..... No one in congress is going to vote for term limits for their cushy job, they are not going to pass any kind of campaign finance reform, as that would take money OUT of THEIR pockets.... They aren't going to do anything about Citizens United, as that makes them rich..... etc. We have the system we are going to have until/unless we the people rise up, and FORCE change. It has gotten to the point that we are done to our last option, the cartridge box. Trouble is, americans in general, are too fat, dumb, and lazy, to stand up for themselves against their government.

 

Now, at some point, some of the red states might push back hard enough, that the federal government will have to act. Last time that happened, was in the early 1860's.......

I cant say I disagree with the basics of what you wrote. However there is one recourse, though never used. While still highly unlikely given the nature of governors at present, Constitutional amendments can be made and approved by 3/4s of the states they can compel congress to propose amendments. Still might not pass but it would at least force, what I imagine is, a very unwanted vote. The electoral college issue is currently being worked around by states passing laws to give their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote, not just their state's popular vote. Why do we directly elect every, single, other elected official but president? I also believe the US attorney general should be an elected position from a certain pool of candidates. Like certain qualifications should be met. 43 states elect their attorneys general. After a president is elected he and the opposition parties give a name, we go elect them. I think we have all seen what happens when the attorney general fails to maintain its independence.

 

But ultimately, you are right. We have a system that expects the elected officials to behave a certain way and it falls apart when they don't. After Nixon, the things put in place should have been made law, not procedure. It should be laws not ethics. And yes, those in power will very likely never vote themselves out. Maybe my daughter is right when she says 'eat the rich?'

[HeyYou]

 

Our political system has been broken for quite some time. The Citizens United decision was just one of the final coffin nails. Today, we have the 'best' government money can buy. And it is bought and sold on the open market every two years. We might just as well call ourselves what we really, in fact, are, an Oligarchy. The rich run the country. Maybe not directly, but darn close to it. Things NEED to change, but, the trouble with that is, the only folks that CAN change it, are the very same folks that benefit the most, from NOT changing it..... No one in congress is going to vote for term limits for their cushy job, they are not going to pass any kind of campaign finance reform, as that would take money OUT of THEIR pockets.... They aren't going to do anything about Citizens United, as that makes them rich..... etc. We have the system we are going to have until/unless we the people rise up, and FORCE change. It has gotten to the point that we are done to our last option, the cartridge box. Trouble is, americans in general, are too fat, dumb, and lazy, to stand up for themselves against their government.

 

Now, at some point, some of the red states might push back hard enough, that the federal government will have to act. Last time that happened, was in the early 1860's.......

I cant say I disagree with the basics of what you wrote. However there is one recourse, though never used. While still highly unlikely given the nature of governors at present, Constitutional amendments can be made and approved by 3/4s of the states they can compel congress to propose amendments. Still might not pass but it would at least force, what I imagine is, a very unwanted vote. The electoral college issue is currently being worked around by states passing laws to give their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote, not just their state's popular vote. Why do we directly elect every, single, other elected official but president? I also believe the US attorney general should be an elected position from a certain pool of candidates. Like certain qualifications should be met. 43 states elect their attorneys general. After a president is elected he and the opposition parties give a name, we go elect them. I think we have all seen what happens when the attorney general fails to maintain its independence.

 

But ultimately, you are right. We have a system that expects the elected officials to behave a certain way and it falls apart when they don't. After Nixon, the things put in place should have been made law, not procedure. It should be laws not ethics. And yes, those in power will very likely never vote themselves out. Maybe my daughter is right when she says 'eat the rich?'

 

Start with the lawyers. (most politicians started out life as lawyers....) :D

 

I think your daughter is a very bright lady. :D

 

Eventually, things will come to a head. We can't continue on the course we are currently on. I see several possibilities.... Civil war being the most likely, followed by, in no particular order, race riots, economic collapse, a third world war, (likely started by some military action involving China.....). There are probably other, equally unpleasant possibilities, but, those are what I think are the most like. At a guess, I would say Economic Collapse is a very close second likelihood.

[colourwheel]

@HeyYou

 

If you seriously think things will devolve into some devastating violent situation such as a "Civil War", taking in consideration how modernize civilization has become and how technology has evolved and advanced, chances are the losing team would be those trying to oppose who ever is ruling the current government. The 2nd amendment is a bit laughable in the 21st century because no grass roots militia could ever be strong enough oppose any of the U.S. armed forces. Even if there was enough people willing to die to try to over throw the government, it would only take one aircraft or even a missile to completely obliterate any real sizable forceful rebellion. If there was ever a real "Civil War" it would have to be completely covert and the rebels would all be forced into hiding underground and go completely dark like Bin Laden. likely they would be found by the NSA or CIA or any of the other national intelligence agencies and simply be labeled as terrorist. Any real serious violent rebellion against the government in the U.S. would probably be quickly squashed. In conclusion there isn't enough people in America actually willing to die just to get Trump put back into office. In reality, things would have to be really really bad for there to be any real struggle to overthrow the government. When I mean really really bad, I mean something like over 99% of the country would have to be living in poverty or something extreme like that.

[HeyYou]

@HeyYou

 

If you seriously think things will devolve into some devastating violent situation such as a "Civil War", taking in consideration how modernize civilization has become and how technology has evolved and advanced, chances are the losing team would be those trying to oppose who ever is ruling the current government. The 2nd amendment is a bit laughable in the 21st century because no grass roots militia could ever be strong enough oppose any of the U.S. armed forces. Even if there was enough people willing to die to try to over throw the government, it would only take one aircraft or even a missile to completely obliterate any real sizable forceful rebellion. If there was ever a real "Civil War" it would have to be completely covert and the rebels would all be forced into hiding underground and go completely dark like Bin Laden. likely they would be found by the NSA or CIA or any of the other national intelligence agencies and simply be labeled as terrorist. Any real serious violent rebellion against the government in the U.S. would probably be quickly squashed. In conclusion there isn't enough people in America actually willing to die just to get Trump put back into office. In reality, things would have to be really really bad for there to be any real struggle to overthrow the government. When I mean really really bad, I mean something like over 99% of the country would have to be living in poverty or something extreme like that.

You are assuming that the US armed forces would act against US citizens, on US soil. US law FORBIDS just such an occurrence. In order to use the military to quell any 'unrest', those laws would first need to be changed... A giant clue as to what was coming next.

 

I would also point out, that the US Military, with all it's might, and technology, LOST the war in Afghanistan against folks no better armed than the average american citizen.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

@HeyYou

 

If you seriously think things will devolve into some devastating violent situation such as a "Civil War", taking in consideration how modernize civilization has become and how technology has evolved and advanced, chances are the losing team would be those trying to oppose who ever is ruling the current government. The 2nd amendment is a bit laughable in the 21st century because no grass roots militia could ever be strong enough oppose any of the U.S. armed forces. Even if there was enough people willing to die to try to over throw the government, it would only take one aircraft or even a missile to completely obliterate any real sizable forceful rebellion. If there was ever a real "Civil War" it would have to be completely covert and the rebels would all be forced into hiding underground and go completely dark like Bin Laden. likely they would be found by the NSA or CIA or any of the other national intelligence agencies and simply be labeled as terrorist. Any real serious violent rebellion against the government in the U.S. would probably be quickly squashed. In conclusion there isn't enough people in America actually willing to die just to get Trump put back into office. In reality, things would have to be really really bad for there to be any real struggle to overthrow the government. When I mean really really bad, I mean something like over 99% of the country would have to be living in poverty or something extreme like that.

 

You are assuming that the US armed forces would act against US citizens, on US soil. US law FORBIDS just such an occurrence. In order to use the military to quell any 'unrest', those laws would first need to be changed... A giant clue as to what was coming next.

 

I would also point out, that the US Military, with all it's might, and technology, LOST the war in Afghanistan against folks no better armed than the average american citizen.

Actually the insurrection act can be made to do this. It has been used before but almost always with gubernatorial request and I believe it is National Guard troops or Title X forces (like the Navy Seals or some group like that) not regular military. But I'm not sure that would be a substantial difference. A few times it has been used sans gubernatorial request has been times of massive violent protest or for protection like when they were integrating schools. It is pretty wide open language and it has typically been very politically detrimental to use for aggressive action against citizenry without extraordinary reasons. Trump was just pulled back from this during the Black Lives Matter protests. I think he would have done so had he not found some other means to engage, via other executive paramilitary departments. The last time it was used was in the 1992 riots in LA when it was requested by the governor , Pete Wilson because of the out of control violence after the LAPD were acquitted. 63 people were killed as a result of the violence there.

 

So I absolutely think it can be used for this purpose, but with the limited conditions set in the act. Still, it is a powerful political tool at the complete discretion of a president. If you have a president who is willing to ignore political pressure, a congress unwilling to act against the president and a military trained to take orders from their commander-in-chief (as they are supposed to do) then you have a perfect storm.

 

I think the main impediment Trump faced was not any political pressure he felt (he did not, even the few times his party stood up to him) was simply the sheer incompetence he and those he put around him had. I do not believe the safety rails of democracy really held. I think his using idiots like Rudy Giuliani was what made him unsuccessful. The Capital Riots showed how far republicans are willing to go, and still go, even after their lives were directly threatened. I honestly believe that if not for covid, Donald Trump would still be president. It took the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and he still managed over 47% of the vote. How much would he have done as a second-term president, who was free of political blow back as someone not able to run for re-election, who survived 2 impeachment convictions and a congress and supreme court unable or unwilling to provide checks and balances.

 

I think congress made this problem long ago by passing the political buck, unwilling to make decisions, allowing the office of the presidency more power that could be used against them just to stay in office and power. We should not have an elected official who does not win the majority of the popular vote be in office. As political parties become more tribal and dug in this will happen more and more often. The hypocracy knows no bounds.

 

I dreaded to have seen (or see) what an unfettered Donald Trump would/will do. I dread even more a president, from whatever party, who is just shy of the age to run that has watched and learned from that presidency. One that is far less incompetent and surrounds themselves with people who are intelligent and experts in their fields. The collective 'We' have learned nothing. But I'm damn sure 'somebody's has.

[HeyYou]

 

 

@HeyYou

 

If you seriously think things will devolve into some devastating violent situation such as a "Civil War", taking in consideration how modernize civilization has become and how technology has evolved and advanced, chances are the losing team would be those trying to oppose who ever is ruling the current government. The 2nd amendment is a bit laughable in the 21st century because no grass roots militia could ever be strong enough oppose any of the U.S. armed forces. Even if there was enough people willing to die to try to over throw the government, it would only take one aircraft or even a missile to completely obliterate any real sizable forceful rebellion. If there was ever a real "Civil War" it would have to be completely covert and the rebels would all be forced into hiding underground and go completely dark like Bin Laden. likely they would be found by the NSA or CIA or any of the other national intelligence agencies and simply be labeled as terrorist. Any real serious violent rebellion against the government in the U.S. would probably be quickly squashed. In conclusion there isn't enough people in America actually willing to die just to get Trump put back into office. In reality, things would have to be really really bad for there to be any real struggle to overthrow the government. When I mean really really bad, I mean something like over 99% of the country would have to be living in poverty or something extreme like that.

You are assuming that the US armed forces would act against US citizens, on US soil. US law FORBIDS just such an occurrence. In order to use the military to quell any 'unrest', those laws would first need to be changed... A giant clue as to what was coming next.

 

I would also point out, that the US Military, with all it's might, and technology, LOST the war in Afghanistan against folks no better armed than the average american citizen.

Actually the insurrection act can be made to do this. It has been used before but almost always with gubernatorial request and I believe it is National Guard troops or Title X forces (like the Navy Seals or some group like that) not regular military. But I'm not sure that would be a substantial difference. A few times it has been used sans gubernatorial request has been times of massive violent protest or for protection like when they were integrating schools. It is pretty wide open language and it has typically been very politically detrimental to use for aggressive action against citizenry without extraordinary reasons. Trump was just pulled back from this during the Black Lives Matter protests. I think he would have done so had he not found some other means to engage, via other executive paramilitary departments. The last time it was used was in the 1992 riots in LA when it was requested by the governor , Pete Wilson because of the out of control violence after the LAPD were acquitted. 63 people were killed as a result of the violence there.

 

So I absolutely think it can be used for this purpose, but with the limited conditions set in the act. Still, it is a powerful political tool at the complete discretion of a president. If you have a president who is willing to ignore political pressure, a congress unwilling to act against the president and a military trained to take orders from their commander-in-chief (as they are supposed to do) then you have a perfect storm.

 

I think the main impediment Trump faced was not any political pressure he felt (he did not, even the few times his party stood up to him) was simply the sheer incompetence he and those he put around him had. I do not believe the safety rails of democracy really held. I think his using idiots like Rudy Giuliani was what made him unsuccessful. The Capital Riots showed how far republicans are willing to go, and still go, even after their lives were directly threatened. I honestly believe that if not for covid, Donald Trump would still be president. It took the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and he still managed over 47% of the vote. How much would he have done as a second-term president, who was free of political blow back as someone not able to run for re-election, who survived 2 impeachment convictions and a congress and supreme court unable or unwilling to provide checks and balances.

 

I think congress made this problem long ago by passing the political buck, unwilling to make decisions, allowing the office of the presidency more power that could be used against them just to stay in office and power. We should not have an elected official who does not win the majority of the popular vote be in office. As political parties become more tribal and dug in this will happen more and more often. The hypocracy knows no bounds.

 

I dreaded to have seen (or see) what an unfettered Donald Trump would/will do. I dread even more a president, from whatever party, who is just shy of the age to run that has watched and learned from that presidency. One that is far less incompetent and surrounds themselves with people who are intelligent and experts in their fields. The collective 'We' have learned nothing. But I'm damn sure 'somebody's has.

 

Thing is, military members swear an oath NOT to the president, but, to the constitution. They are only required to follow LAWFUL orders, and cannot be punished for disobeying orders that aren't.

 

Then you run into the whole problem of, which side are the various commanders going to take? If General Smith believes what the folks up in arms are correct in what they are doing, then he isn't going to raise arms against them. Sure, some will, but, a lot won't. And then you need to look at the makeup of the folks that will be doing the actual shooting. (in the military) They are young kids. How inclined do you think they are going to be, to fire into a crowd of their friends and neighbors??

 

Still and all, even if the military does get involved, it's a war they won't be able to win. It will just drag on, and the body count will grow. Just like afghanistan.

[colourwheel]

 

 

 

@HeyYou

 

If you seriously think things will devolve into some devastating violent situation such as a "Civil War", taking in consideration how modernize civilization has become and how technology has evolved and advanced, chances are the losing team would be those trying to oppose who ever is ruling the current government. The 2nd amendment is a bit laughable in the 21st century because no grass roots militia could ever be strong enough oppose any of the U.S. armed forces. Even if there was enough people willing to die to try to over throw the government, it would only take one aircraft or even a missile to completely obliterate any real sizable forceful rebellion. If there was ever a real "Civil War" it would have to be completely covert and the rebels would all be forced into hiding underground and go completely dark like Bin Laden. likely they would be found by the NSA or CIA or any of the other national intelligence agencies and simply be labeled as terrorist. Any real serious violent rebellion against the government in the U.S. would probably be quickly squashed. In conclusion there isn't enough people in America actually willing to die just to get Trump put back into office. In reality, things would have to be really really bad for there to be any real struggle to overthrow the government. When I mean really really bad, I mean something like over 99% of the country would have to be living in poverty or something extreme like that.

You are assuming that the US armed forces would act against US citizens, on US soil. US law FORBIDS just such an occurrence. In order to use the military to quell any 'unrest', those laws would first need to be changed... A giant clue as to what was coming next.

 

I would also point out, that the US Military, with all it's might, and technology, LOST the war in Afghanistan against folks no better armed than the average american citizen.

Actually the insurrection act can be made to do this. It has been used before but almost always with gubernatorial request and I believe it is National Guard troops or Title X forces (like the Navy Seals or some group like that) not regular military. But I'm not sure that would be a substantial difference. A few times it has been used sans gubernatorial request has been times of massive violent protest or for protection like when they were integrating schools. It is pretty wide open language and it has typically been very politically detrimental to use for aggressive action against citizenry without extraordinary reasons. Trump was just pulled back from this during the Black Lives Matter protests. I think he would have done so had he not found some other means to engage, via other executive paramilitary departments. The last time it was used was in the 1992 riots in LA when it was requested by the governor , Pete Wilson because of the out of control violence after the LAPD were acquitted. 63 people were killed as a result of the violence there.

 

So I absolutely think it can be used for this purpose, but with the limited conditions set in the act. Still, it is a powerful political tool at the complete discretion of a president. If you have a president who is willing to ignore political pressure, a congress unwilling to act against the president and a military trained to take orders from their commander-in-chief (as they are supposed to do) then you have a perfect storm.

 

I think the main impediment Trump faced was not any political pressure he felt (he did not, even the few times his party stood up to him) was simply the sheer incompetence he and those he put around him had. I do not believe the safety rails of democracy really held. I think his using idiots like Rudy Giuliani was what made him unsuccessful. The Capital Riots showed how far republicans are willing to go, and still go, even after their lives were directly threatened. I honestly believe that if not for covid, Donald Trump would still be president. It took the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and he still managed over 47% of the vote. How much would he have done as a second-term president, who was free of political blow back as someone not able to run for re-election, who survived 2 impeachment convictions and a congress and supreme court unable or unwilling to provide checks and balances.

 

I think congress made this problem long ago by passing the political buck, unwilling to make decisions, allowing the office of the presidency more power that could be used against them just to stay in office and power. We should not have an elected official who does not win the majority of the popular vote be in office. As political parties become more tribal and dug in this will happen more and more often. The hypocracy knows no bounds.

 

I dreaded to have seen (or see) what an unfettered Donald Trump would/will do. I dread even more a president, from whatever party, who is just shy of the age to run that has watched and learned from that presidency. One that is far less incompetent and surrounds themselves with people who are intelligent and experts in their fields. The collective 'We' have learned nothing. But I'm damn sure 'somebody's has.

 

Thing is, military members swear an oath NOT to the president, but, to the constitution. They are only required to follow LAWFUL orders, and cannot be punished for disobeying orders that aren't.

 

Then you run into the whole problem of, which side are the various commanders going to take? If General Smith believes what the folks up in arms are correct in what they are doing, then he isn't going to raise arms against them. Sure, some will, but, a lot won't. And then you need to look at the makeup of the folks that will be doing the actual shooting. (in the military) They are young kids. How inclined do you think they are going to be, to fire into a crowd of their friends and neighbors??

 

Still and all, even if the military does get involved, it's a war they won't be able to win. It will just drag on, and the body count will grow. Just like afghanistan.

 

 

America is far from being any resemblance to an Afghanistan. Giving you the benefit of the doubt of saying actual sizable amount of military personnel and generals actually decided to rebel against the Government, they still wouldn't have the resources or supplies to win any real open battle if there was some war on U.S. soil today. Also this isn't the 1800's, simply having the right to bare arms today to rebel against the government wouldn't be enough. Most of the time today if there was any cause of a real violent threat to the government, our intelligence agencies would quickly squash the threat before it got down to any kind of real violent act.

 

Regardless of what you might think, a large majority of people in America live a life that they simply wouldn't just completely throw away. People still have children and families that go to school and have jobs. For a real civil war to happen there would have to be a purpose and some type of plan to what would follow after. There isn't a big enough unified reason for anyone in America to simply throw away everything they have just to basically bring down our current government. "lets rebel and bring a civil war on America just to get Trump back in power" isn't a winning rally cry to recruit enough people into taking up arms willing to throw away their lives for such a cause.

 

Things would have to be incredibly bad in our country where the quality of living was diminished to the point of a 3rd world country in order for there to be a real reason for enough people to give up their lives to fight to over throw the government.

[HeyYou]

 

Things would have to be incredibly bad in our country where the quality of living was diminished to the point of a 3rd world country in order for there to be a real reason for enough people to give up their lives to fight to over throw the government.

Trouble is, we are headed in that direction. We have a SERIOUSLY stratified society at the moment, and the gap between the haves, and the have-nots, grows wider every year. Then we have the western states competing for water... and the likelihood that it is only going to get worse. And within that, we have farmers that have already been told they aren't going to be getting their irrigation water..... Then we have the racial tensions that are only increasing....

 

Civil war doesn't necessarily have to be something that is 'planned' either. It doesn't have to be some conspiracy of any sort. It could just be the result of a series of decisions by various parties that escalate a situation, and it simply gets out of hand....

 

There is a LOT going on here, and a fair bit of ain't good. :) Of course, if the economy improves, the pandemic subsides, we may dodge that particular bullet, for a while..... Until the next major crisis comes about. And you know it will.

 

 

But then, maybe economic collapse is the more likely scenario? The government can't keep spending money they don't have before folks figure out that they are not EVER going to see their money back. That would certainly be interesting..... (and I hope I don't live to see it.....) Of course, China could make a couple financial moves, and totally tank our economy. They don't have the motivation to do so, as yet.... but, there may come a time when removing us as a world power, is more advantageous to them, than having us as a trade partner.....

[colourwheel]

 

 

Things would have to be incredibly bad in our country where the quality of living was diminished to the point of a 3rd world country in order for there to be a real reason for enough people to give up their lives to fight to over throw the government.

 

Trouble is, we are headed in that direction. We have a SERIOUSLY stratified society at the moment, and the gap between the haves, and the have-nots, grows wider every year. Then we have the western states competing for water... and the likelihood that it is only going to get worse. And within that, we have farmers that have already been told they aren't going to be getting their irrigation water..... Then we have the racial tensions that are only increasing....

 

Civil war doesn't necessarily have to be something that is 'planned' either. It doesn't have to be some conspiracy of any sort. It could just be the result of a series of decisions by various parties that escalate a situation, and it simply gets out of hand....

 

There is a LOT going on here, and a fair bit of ain't good. :smile: Of course, if the economy improves, the pandemic subsides, we may dodge that particular bullet, for a while..... Until the next major crisis comes about. And you know it will.

 

 

But then, maybe economic collapse is the more likely scenario? The government can't keep spending money they don't have before folks figure out that they are not EVER going to see their money back. That would certainly be interesting..... (and I hope I don't live to see it.....) Of course, China could make a couple financial moves, and totally tank our economy. They don't have the motivation to do so, as yet.... but, there may come a time when removing us as a world power, is more advantageous to them, than having us as a trade partner.....

 

 

This is just my own opinion, a lot of what has happened that has drastically diminished the quality of living in the past few decades is mostly due to Republican policies for their specific goal to shrink the government and mirror policies based on religious beliefs as well as things that help the rich get richer. It was the Republican party that pushed for Citizens United that effectively change political campaigning into the lucrative business machine that it is today. Our society has become even more stratified due to Republican policies that favored giving the rich and big companies big tax breaks. A lot of the environmental issues we created are due to Republican polices that either deregulate agencies that closely monitor and police companies from polluting the air and land or completely dissolving government bureaucracies that specifically deal with any public health crisis. I could go on but I won't...

Now saying this, the Democrats also have their fair share of things that I could complain about too. But specifically a lot of the economic problems we face today are completely to blame due to Republican policies. We could debate all day and night about wedge issues on guns, abortion, immigration, healthcare, etc... but that won't really get us anywhere.

The political atmosphere has gotten so extreme that if you politically lean slightly to the right you are suddenly labeled a "Nazi". If you happen to slightly lean to the left suddenly you are also labeled a "Nazi".

Call it good luck or bad luck or even bad timing, Republican Presidents in office haven't had a good run on the national stage when it comes to trying to advert any economic crisis the last few decades. On the other hand when a Democrat has been elected President there is a clear good record they hold from letting things economically go to total s***. If you are really worried about some economic collapse scenario, it would most likely happen under a Republican President, if the last 4 decades has anything to say about it.

Edited July 4, 2021 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

Things would have to be incredibly bad in our country where the quality of living was diminished to the point of a 3rd world country in order for there to be a real reason for enough people to give up their lives to fight to over throw the government.

 

Trouble is, we are headed in that direction. We have a SERIOUSLY stratified society at the moment, and the gap between the haves, and the have-nots, grows wider every year. Then we have the western states competing for water... and the likelihood that it is only going to get worse. And within that, we have farmers that have already been told they aren't going to be getting their irrigation water..... Then we have the racial tensions that are only increasing....

 

Civil war doesn't necessarily have to be something that is 'planned' either. It doesn't have to be some conspiracy of any sort. It could just be the result of a series of decisions by various parties that escalate a situation, and it simply gets out of hand....

 

There is a LOT going on here, and a fair bit of ain't good. :smile: Of course, if the economy improves, the pandemic subsides, we may dodge that particular bullet, for a while..... Until the next major crisis comes about. And you know it will.

 

 

But then, maybe economic collapse is the more likely scenario? The government can't keep spending money they don't have before folks figure out that they are not EVER going to see their money back. That would certainly be interesting..... (and I hope I don't live to see it.....) Of course, China could make a couple financial moves, and totally tank our economy. They don't have the motivation to do so, as yet.... but, there may come a time when removing us as a world power, is more advantageous to them, than having us as a trade partner.....

 

 

This is just my own opinion, a lot of what has happened that has drastically diminished the quality of living in the past few decades is mostly due to Republican policies for their specific goal to shrink the government and mirror policies based on religious beliefs as well as things that help the rich get richer. It was the Republican party that pushed for Citizens United that effectively change political campaigning into the lucrative business machine that it is today. Our society has become even more stratified due to Republican policies that favored giving the rich and big companies big tax breaks. A lot of the environmental issues we created are due to Republican polices that either deregulate agencies that closely monitor and police companies from polluting the air and land or completely dissolving government bureaucracies that specifically deal with any public health crisis. I could go on but I won't...

Now saying this, the Democrats also have their fair share of things that I could complain about too. But specifically a lot of the economic problems we face today are completely to blame due to Republican policies. We could debate all day and night about wedge issues on guns, abortion, immigration, healthcare, etc... but that won't really get us anywhere.

The political atmosphere has gotten so extreme that if you politically lean slightly to the right you are suddenly labeled a "Nazi". If you happen to slightly lean to the left suddenly you are also labeled a "Nazi".

Call it good luck or bad luck or even bad timing, Republican Presidents in office haven't had a good run on the national stage when it comes to trying to advert any economic crisis the last few decades. On the other hand when a Democrat has been elected President there is a clear good record they hold from letting things economically go to total s***. If you are really worried about some economic collapse scenario, it would most likely happen under a Republican President, if the last 4 decades has anything to say about it.

 

In all reality, I don't think either party is really 'good' for america...... Unfortunately, the dems just hold positions I cannot get behind. Of course, the repubbies have some views that I don't agree with either, but, they are fewer, and further down my priority list. So, republican it is for me. For now. :)

 

Both parties talk a good game, but, when it comes to fiscal policy, they both seem to be spending a LOT more money than they are bringing in. Just WHERE they spend it is the only difference. Either way, it isn't sustainable. And yup, it was the republicans that started that trend. Ronnie Reagan? "Deficits don't matter."......