"improved: Don't allow starting the game if there are unsolved file conflicts"

[alannordgren]

i've been working in software for almost 30 years.

while it's not the same thing, i would consider this a function of your software development system. programmer a writes some code, tests it and programmer b writes some code, in the same code path, and tests it.

when that code is promoted into the development lifecycle, your code management software, Git or any other product will raise a warning because the code is in the same codepath, and which one gets written into the code repository and will find its way to the gold copy?

vortex is doing that here. your gold copy in this example would be your game files.

it would be remiss of vortex to ignore this error, just as it would be remiss of your code management software to ignore the potential overwrite from programmer a and programmer b. they would need to work together to figure out the issue and work with the code management software to ensure that the correct code is added and eventually copied into the gold copy.

i don't know of any software development lifecycle that would allow something like this to be ignored. it is not something that can, or should, be ignored. it should be something that needs to be looked into and remediated.

i think it's solid from vortex, that it prevents such a problem to be ignored because then it is not doing what it should be doing and is designed to do.

Well I now sheepishly realize I was speaking to the choir :). And you started when I was only 10 so your experience clearly far exceeds mine. If you don't mind me asking, what development methodology do you use? Waterfall, One of the Agile varieties, DevOps? Just curious.

 

I understand what you are saying, and you are absolutely right. Clearly the error would need to be corrected through the collaboration between the two programmers otherwise the errors would compound overtime through the development process until the end result might end up being a complete failure. And I understand this is what this feature in Vortex is trying to prevent. Which is why you and others have been warning me about the corrupt saves and potentially game breaking behavior. So for someone who wants a pristine gaming experience, your analogy makes a lot of sense.

 

I'm not saying that I have never dealt with these issues, it just hasn't been very often. Maybe it has to do with the types of mods I choose, I overwhelmingly choose graphics enhancing mods over things that change game play or use scripts and that sort of thing. Small graphical issues here and there just don't bother me that much and I don't care to try and fix them. Maybe that's where the disconnect between me and others who have posted on this thread lies.

 

Because of how I mod I don't get many issues and it has been a very long time since I have had a corrupt save or something else breaking my game. I use Loot to show me the glaring errors, I fix those, click the auto sort button and that's basically it. I don't worry about conflicts, I don't clean my mods or game files or do anything else. I just load it up and play. I'm not looking for a pristine gaming experience, I'm just escaping for a little while.

 

And that brings me back to my issue with this "feature", it just gets in my way.

 

I understand that most of the folks who use this forum are more enthusiast than I am. My type of modder probably generally doesn't get involved here. But, being in the software business, I just like new shiny software and I like helping it improve if I find errors, or my user experience is lacking. And I don't get involved here very often either.

[Guest deleted34304850]

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Edited July 18, 2019 by 1ae0bfb8

[alannordgren]

 

 

 

 

 

All I am trying to do with this thread is give some feedback on something I see as a problem so Vortex can be improved further.

 

I'm going to take my car to the garage so they can remove the oil light that keeps coming on, that will fix my problem.

 

You are not being helpful. This is unnecessary. If you continue, I will report you.

 

 

Report me for what?

For having a differing opinion than yours?

For using a metaphor?

 

The example I gave showed EXACTLY what you want to do.

Instead of putting oil in the car, you would rather have the light, (reminding you to put oil in the car) removed, knowing full well, that eventually the car will break down, but until that time, you're not being annoyed by the oil light being on all the time.

 

What you are suggesting is called a "Bad Idea"

 

 

 

HadToRegister, I mad a mistake. I thought you and chanchan05 were the same person because you referenced his initial analogy. Because of that I got a little heated and didn't pay close enough attention to who was saying what. I'm sorry I threatened to report you. Big mistake that I shouldn't have made on a forum. I hope you will accept my apology.

[HadToRegister]

 

Well I now sheepishly realize I was speaking to the choir :smile:. And you started when I was only 10 so your experience clearly far exceeds mine.

 

That makes me 25 when he started, by 1988 I was using an Atari 1040 STE after having graduated from my C64 setup with a rack of synths, and a 128 MOTU midi express using the big old Parallel "Printer Port" and the built in MIDI ports on the Atari.

That's what got me to go with Atari over Amiga.

 

HadToRegister, I mad a mistake. I thought you and chanchan05 were the same person because you referenced his initial analogy. Because of that I got a little heated and didn't pay close enough attention to who was saying what. I'm sorry I threatened to report you. Big mistake that I shouldn't have made on a forum. I hope you will accept my apology.

 

No problem, I was just trying to find a better way to explain the analogy, plus, it's a bannable offense to have more than one account.

 

 

[alannordgren]

used various methodologies over the years. agile is flavour of the month currently so that's where we're at. devops too - although that has other challenges, not least the whole "thats how we've always done it" which is a real bugbear!

 

i can understand your stance, given the mods you choose, but, you should be aware that up to now, you have been lucky, rather than anything else. with texture mods, it is possible that a situation could arise where you apply mod a and then later apply mod b - mod b wants to change a texture that mod a added - you tell your mod manager to over-write - all is good.

 

later you may decide to remove mod b and replace it with mod c. when you remove mod b, it removes itself and its files, including the file that it applied to the texture that mod a added, and now you're missing a texture, and sometimes with bethesda games, that will give you a ctd.

 

if you look - you'll see mod a is still there, and maybe mod c doesn't touch anything from mod a - so you think to yourself - what has happened? how can this be?

 

unless you're really good at making notes about what mod touches what file - you're gonna get an issue at some point and that will break your game.

 

of course, the simple answer is - well i will re-install mod a again and my problem goes away - which is fine, if you want to do that, however, vortex manages all this for you so you dont need to worry about uninstalling mod b, then being forced to re-install mod a. when you uninstall mod b with vortex, vortex will happily uninstall it for you, and it will revert the changes mod b made to the file from mod a - no missing file/texture, everything as it should be. mod a returned intact automatically.

 

that, in a nutshell, is why this is a good thing and the warning should not be ignored.

We are currently transitioning over to DevOps from Agile, but our Agile still looks more like Waterfall in many cases because of "that's how we've always done it" so I'm not sure how the transition will go. I worry that we are just wasting a lot of money by melding these methodologies. Our scrum meetings are weekly not daily and our iterations take months instead of weeks. So DevOps might fall flat on its face. But I don't make those decisions so I will just roll with it.

 

I've seen others on this forum mention similar scenarios to yours and I can see that would certainly be a head ache. When I mod though I will pick my mods before I start a play through and I generally don't touch them or do any experimenting after that point. My play through might last me a year or two. Then I delete everything and start fresh before my next play through. So I haven't ever run into that particular problem.

 

Maybe I am just lucky, but I have been lucky for a very long time and my luck has continued once I started using Vortex. The only major hiccup I have had is this feature getting in the way of my laissez faire modding strategy.

 

Like I said, I am perhaps a more casual/lazy modder than most folks here. I guess, because of the way I play, I didn't see much use for this particular feature and thought it overkill which is why I brought it up.

 

I guess we'll see if my issue is seen as valid or not over the next few releases.

[Guest deleted34304850]

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Edited July 18, 2019 by 1ae0bfb8

[Grestorn]

@alannordgren:

 

I guess the message here is that you should invest the time ONCE to clean up your overwrites. Then the problem is gone, because even if you install new mods in the future, it will be just a handfull of clicks to resolve the future conflicts.

 

The problem with Vortex' approach as compared to NMM's is, that NMM "resolves" the conflicts as you go along installing mods (but more or less irreversible), while in Vortex, you can allow the conflicts to pile up without making any decisions.

 

BOTH tools won't allow you to start the game without resolving a conflict. NMM does that by forcing the user to make the decision when installing a mod here and there, while Vortex allows you to postpone that decision. But it still doesn't go away either way. When you're not telling Vortex what to do with the conflicts, it's even worse than NMM, because then there is no telling what mod is overwriting what.

 

In theory, you can still start the game (outside of Vortex) but you'd have NO idea of the outcome. And that'll cause even more support headaches for the staff (and us here in the forum). That's why there's this huge big red warning light that doesn't allow your car to start without short wiring it :smile: