Illusion of freedom

[Mudran]

It seems to me that Americans tend to reply on any topic - we have freedom, we don't want regulations, but then in some other topic they complain about people with a lot of money having all the power and deciding about everything. Europeans say - we don't have freedom, we are regulated so much that we hate it, but still sometimes it looks like things are better for ordinary people.

 

So my idea is - if there is total freedom, is it really freedom? Because if everything is allowed, then you will hit the reality - people are different and some of them are stronger, smarter, whatever, and some of them will start to misuse that and enforce their will on others, weaker ones, who cannot defend themselves. If everything is allowed in capitalism and no control, then they cannot go anywhere for help - they have to defend themselves as they can or live horribly. Also others will not help them if everything is allowed - they would have to make themselves the law, and in order to do that you have to have bigger strength than simply say: it is not allowed by rules.

 

On the other hand with rules established, power groups will see that and will try to alter those rules into their favor, knowing that if they can do it, you will need even bigger strength to 1. break the bad rule again and 2. defend the strong group/person, 3. push through what you feel is right.

 

also strong people know they are stronger in a group, while someone, who just want freedom, usually act for himself.

 

But my idea is - isn't it easier to operate with rules, orders, laws and tear down a bad law, than fighting a powergroup with nothing in your hands?

 

I forgot about communism - they said - we have freedom for working class people from bad capitalistic rich people, and then they destroyed all and established themselves as the new rulers with the basic need filled for ordinary people.

But it wasn't allowed to say anything, do anything else but live, eat, and die - that doesn't sound like freedom, still it was Ok for some people. There are rules, but also very strong powergroup with no competition, no way how to change it. On the other hand they had such control over the country, no mafia, drog dealers, thieves gangs could afford to go against them - they knew them all and controlled it, so the country was much more safer. So for ordinary people that could be freedom they promised, but generally it wasn't really freedom.

 

But maybe that is the reason why everyone in America has his agency, very extreme, very loud and he is screaming that everywhere, because maybe without money, power, that is the only way how to change things in America. But I don't know about Europe - you could scream as much as you want, nobody cares, things are established in Belgium by bureaucrats and that is. And it is worse than communism, because local government doesn't have such control over their country as it used to be when they were afraid of someone accusing them of not being good communists. On the other hand - you can say what you want - if nobody will listen to you - does it matter?

Maybe it is worse, because it looks like it is tied to nationalities even, and nationalities are tied to how big the nation is - so again it is rule of the strongest one, but you cannot change nationalism.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Mudran

[Mktavish]

I wouldn't say there is an illusion of freedom , except in the idea that 1 size fits all , or even most.

 

We are not free to escape the laws of physics so to speak . But we are always free to learn them and figure out how to circumvent them.

Which we as people working together have done time and time again.

 

It's just a matter of figuring out the critical mass situations that do threaten our freedoms gained by human interaction and ingenuity.

Like a cougar that needs 10 square miles to live a healthy life . What represents that 10 square miles , and what is a healthy life for humans ?

 

Is it being able to surf the internet at said content load speed ?

[Mudran]

Yes, I realized that I was talking in circles, trying to find the most complete description, I described everything :smile:.

The basic idea was thinking if I would like to live in some country like America rather than Europe, and lately when I hear what people can endure there, I'm not sure anymore. It was always presented as the land of freedom, but it looks more like land of extremes - or horrible extreme law or nothing. While in Europe we have long tradition of keeping things under control. so in America it looks like illusion of freedom and in Europe you feel without freedom, but without extremes, so again illusion limitations, but there can be freedom within limitations.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Mudran

[blaze1514]

Short answer to OP: There is no such thing as total freedom. Though there is freedom. Going by the world today it is obvious that communism and socialism didn't work.

Long answers:
First... Total freedom is a lie, everyone will control something. If there was "NO" government 'control' and the only thing the government did was deliver mail and form an army for protection against foreign powers and kept records of who owns what (similar to the original idea of the U.S.), then there would be other large groups that would take over. Probably corporations or militia/municipal control would be established to keep things together. Lets say its a totally civilian funded volunteer militia that polices, protects, and maintains some areas... even if meant to be as free as possible, it will still be a form of control.
Even if we go on a smaller scale and say a single family owns 100 acres of land, and 'rents/leases' it out. In the absence of laws set by a governing body they would just make rules and enforce them themselves.
However that all being said, I would still prefer the 'more freedom' I get in a capitalist libertarian country than have to put of with Socialist, communist, fascist control from other countries. The 50 states are (were) technically different countries all united under one simple law of the US Constitution (now its muddied with TONS of unneeded stupid federal laws and regulations, but the original idea is still somewhat in tact) if I dislike the way something is happening where I live, I can just move to a different county or state due to the decentralized nature of the U.S. I wouldn't ever want to live in California due to the heavy socialist leaning the laws and the resulting massive debt the state is trying to keep everyone distracted from, but the US isn't just California I have 49 other states (all with their own pro's and cons) to chose from. Then each county (basically "provinces" of the individual 50 States/sub countries in the united states) has their own pros/cons.

Second... The Soviet experiment failed miserably and the European socialist experiment is failing (Greece, France, the UK, etc...). India just went democratic with capitalist themes within the last decade while Japan and S. Korea are both thriving wonderfully under a more capitalist themed system. Of course just like the US, Japan and Korea have a few socialist aspects, which is fine. I find that mixing the two together while leaning as far to capitalism as you can seems to work best. As well as leaning to less government regulations and more choice up to the individual. Japan and Korea seem a bit more controlling than I like, but its no where near the off the charts levels of many heavy socialist leaning countries.

Note: I do think that many socialist ideas are fine. Social Security systems, the idea of free healthcare (though for the US I think it should be a mix of free government hospitals and then ones we have now), and the idea of free/reduced education to keep the citizens of your state healthy and capable to work in the capitalist system are needed.

For anyone curious... The healthcare system mentioned. If we had "at least" one free state ran hospital per state (obviously more depending on population and distance), that could care for impoverished citizens as well as anyone that 'chooses' to use it, while keeping insurance/monetary hospitals around as well... then you would get a very good mix of socialist healthcare and American paid systems. Anyone that needs to (or wants to) put up with the waiting and possibly under-preforming aspects of a free system could use the government provided hospitals... while others that are able can choose to pay insurance and go to a privatized corporation hospital. VA hospitals used by veterans in the US are a good indicator of the level of sub-quality that would most likely infect the general government hospitals. However this seems to happen to all free/government ran hospital systems to a degree, so it is to be expected. This dual system would be a simple answer to those calling for free healthcare and those wanting healthcare to stay the same. *Does a pew-die-pie voice*- "Why not both".

Edited April 2, 2019 by blaze1514

[Deleted54170User]

I believe if I were to gain freedom from the Earthly mentions you have all made I would still be encapsulated in space, not free of the Earth's atmosphere, or not free from gravity, or some form of energy would keep us in a state of suspension even in that way that we think of after we die, from being totally free.

 

Free to roam about like a ghost, but then I would still be a ghost. Free to roam about as an ethereal entity, but then I would still be an entity in some form of matter. In my opinion freedom begins when we have no sense of our self, no sense of others, no sense of any kind. Then all that has been known no longer holds us by our intellectual curiosity.

 

If we sever all ties with what is known is that freedom?

 

The unknown may become another problem that binds us to it just as curiosity binds us to debate a curiosity, and to question more than just our lifestyle, but to question reality as well.

[Harbringe]

 

Free to roam about like a ghost, but then I would still be a ghost. Free to roam about as an ethereal entity, but then I would still be an entity in some form of matter. In my opinion freedom begins when we have no sense of our self, no sense of others, no sense of any kind. Then all that has been known no longer holds us by our intellectual curiosity.

 

Without the I Am there can be no that is /you are ie you need a point of singularity for any differentiation to exist . To devoid yourself of the things you mentioned is not freedom , its nihilism. There would be no intellectual curiosity to hold as you would be non existent.

[Deleted54170User]

First shouldn't we free our self from that which binds our body and keeps us mobile and keeps us from wandering too far from our dinner table?

Then the only thing that keeps us from being free is that which fills our bellies/stomach and thins our blood so we can move, breath, and think?

 

Is that which binds us, to all this reasoning, food and drink?

 

Food we hold up with our trained hands, with utensils to put just enough in our mouths to chew?

 

Food which we lift up in a cup and drink?

 

Can we find Freedom from the simple mindedness of what really is what keeps us bound and I mean biologically held together by the biological human flesh, blood, bones, sinew, ligaments, tendons, etc., etc..

 

The first children to form a group made up rules among themselves. Nihilism: is a description of hypothetical reasoning, the theoretical whys and why nots.

 

Put whatever name, as you like, on the symbols of chemical compounds that are the reason for our thoughtful captivity. Those words only move in our minds and take us away from the rules we all found we had to follow, whether we chose to follow the rules to follow or were just born where they exist.

 

The Rules of Our Stomachs keep us from leaving where we live, here on Earth.

 

When we no longer eat and drink our body ceases to function. Freedom?

 

Free yourselves from that which keeps you alive.

 

Free yourselves from that which you raise to your mouth which is what keeps you bound to this Earth.

 

Whatever rules and regulations we have after we finish eating are made up before we share what we have gathered before the feast and again after the feast.

 

Unless I can find reason enough to stop gathering food to eat and water to drink and consuming it; I will sit at the table and thank all those who have made it possible so I don't have to wander in the wilderness, or go to the field's crops where I would gather food, too to the well or stream to bring in water, or go hunting and fishing.

 

There is no freedom from whatever it is you gain your sustenance from. Except death.

 

No one has returned from death with a convincing enough story to make me want to quit eating and drinking the forms of nutrition that keeps my body from dying, so I don't see being free from eating food and drinking water any way, any time, any how, soon.

 

Freedom to decide how you get the food and water can be yours if you live where there are no rules that keep you from gathering it however you like.

 

Freedom to decide who eats at your table, when you and your friends gather in a cluster for your dinner, is the group's decision.

 

Enjoy your next meal.

[Arneercool]

I like a good philosophical headache, but i also feel we should pin this subject until after we get rid of human tyranny.

 

I feel silly having such lofty discourse as long as some of you are willing to kill to enforce your will over others.

 

Humans are hopeless egotistical rotten trash,clinging to the smallest notion of power, individualism, personal gain and muh freedom, and we are destined to burn in the hell we created for ourselves.

 

So there is that.

[blaze1514]

From the sound of things we are going into Serial Experiments Lain territory. The theory being that we are never free unless we can unchain our conciousness from our bodies and be free to roam as energy.

[Deleted54170User]

From the sound of things we are going into Serial Experiments Lain territory. The theory being that we are never free unless we can unchain our conciousness from our bodies and be free to roam as energy.

 

What you've suggested is that there is another state of consciousness. Where there is consciousness, albeit pure energy, there may be conditions which give us the ability to roam without the physical body restraints, and yet still; have a set of concepts which may end up making room for rules that cause us to lose our own freedoms.

 

As long as there is a control factor, we are limited by it and have no freedom. Pure energy would be like the battery that has two points. Intake (negative) and output (positive). Without a wire connected to the output of the battery going to a capacitor, a triode, diode, and many resistors and a wire to the input to control the flow of energy the battery would not transfer the positive energy out and through any device that uses it, and return the energy to the negative connection. The negative portions of the batteries function would not react to the used energy causing a electronic reaction to keep the positive energy at it's best strength for the life of the battery.

 

The energy is contained in the battery, passed along the outside of the wires, thus needing a shield, and through parts to use it's electromotive force within the borders of the device. Therefore the energy is contained and is not free to go outside the limitations of the devices channels and the battery to the extent we seek freedom. If our body is a battery, than that energy, our Ohms, is co-active within us making all our vital body parts work until our electric contained energy is used up. Although being freed from our body that may give us a vast amount of space to explore???

 

Fortunately for us, we can recharge our body by ingesting food and water. We can extend our life force for decades and records show many ancestors lived for centuries.

 

All the rules that we are given do not keep us from using the one part that so many people try to capture, contain, use, and block; that is; our ability to use it for our own means for thinking, imagining, and being creative, our mind.

 

Is the primary reason for Freedom to Explore :dance: , Create :sweat: , Share :hurr: , and have Recreation :sweat: with this extraordinary device we've all become, the human body and mind?

 

 

(Note: Try not to break :ohdear: :facepalm: the rules we've become accustomed while we are at it. If you come up with something amazing that might actually change the common household ways we all think that could change the way we make life, pursue happiness, and love; 'remember to share' it with me too.)