But seriously, who do you think really won the civil war?

[blackninja50]

@RighthandofSithis The French in World War 2 thought the same thing, that there mighty forts, thick forests, giant army and the worlds largest air force wold protect them from the Nazis. I think we all know how that turned out for them. The best the stormclocks can hope for is a stalemate with the Thalmor after millions of deaths and probably half Skyrim lost or burnt down (don't forget the Thalmor want to exterminate all none elves and have no resign to live even one city standing).

[Lachdonin]

We also know that Skyrim has a rather... sordid past when it comes to invasions. The Allessians took over, so did the Akiviri, the Remans, the Bretons at one point... They don't really have a history of holding off invaders. If anything, the fact that theres nothing really of value in Skyrim is what keeps it independant.

[ZagreustheLiar]

@RighthandofSithis The French in World War 2 thought the same thing, that there mighty forts, thick forests, giant army and the worlds largest air force wold protect them from the Nazis. I think we all know how that turned out for them. The best the stormclocks can hope for is a stalemate with the Thalmor after millions of deaths and probably half Skyrim lost or burnt down (don't forget the Thalmor want to exterminate all none elves and have no resign to live even one city standing).

 

Thanks for that pearl of strategic wisdom Black Ninja 50.

[RighthandofSithis]

@RighthandofSithis The French in World War 2 thought the same thing, that there mighty forts, thick forests, giant army and the worlds largest air force wold protect them from the Nazis. I think we all know how that turned out for them. The best the stormclocks can hope for is a stalemate with the Thalmor after millions of deaths and probably half Skyrim lost or burnt down (don't forget the Thalmor want to exterminate all none elves and have no resign to live even one city standing).

 

Do the Thalmor have access to mechanised infantry, air superiority and panzer tanks?

 

And if you haven't noticed, Skyrim is a lot different to France. To even get to it, you need to climb the Jerrals, and even if you manage to succeed in defeating the Nords on the Battlefield, they'd still end up loosing a guerrilla war of attrition.

 

"We also know that Skyrim has a rather... sordid past when it comes to invasions. The Allessians took over, so did the Akiviri, the Remans, the Bretons at one point... They don't really have a history of holding off invaders. If anything, the fact that theres nothing really of value in Skyrim is what keeps it independant. "

 

Well, Allessia didn;t occupy Skyrim, We don;t know anything about the circumstances surrounding the Akaviri invasion, or akaviri tactics, Reman didn't conquer Skyrim, it was given to him, and when did the Bretons invade? They also managed to scare of the Kamal (TES:O), thats got to count for something (Intimidating demons), and they held their ground against the Dominion in the Great War.

 

The Nords, however, have a strong history of successful invasions. the War of the Bend'r-mahk, the Skyrim conquests (albeit, that was supposedly luck), the Return, the Markarth Incident.

 

EDIT: The Akaviri took a naval route (because Vivec attacked their navies from the rear), they didn't have to cross the mountains. Their ultimate failure expresses the difficulties of this type of invasion.

Edited January 7, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[RJLbwb]

@RighthandofSithis The French in World War 2 thought the same thing, that there mighty forts, thick forests, giant army and the worlds largest air force wold protect them from the Nazis. I think we all know how that turned out for them. The best the stormclocks can hope for is a stalemate with the Thalmor after millions of deaths and probably half Skyrim lost or burnt down (don't forget the Thalmor want to exterminate all none elves and have no resign to live even one city standing).

 

Do the Thalmor have access to mechanised infantry, air superiority and panzer tanks?

 

And if you haven't noticed, Skyrim is a lot different to France. To even get to it, you need to climb the Jerrals, and even if you manage to succeed in defeating the Nords on the Battlefield, they'd still end up loosing a guerrilla war of attrition.

 

You should go read what the Thamor have to say about Ulfic Stormcloak in their embassy. He really does throw such a remarkable fit upon seeing the Thamor Ambassador, it's like the two have a history.

 

As for the rest of the Jarl's go, the whole embassy party during The Blades quest line is really interesting.

 

I don't think a Thamor army would have any problems getting into skyrim

Edited January 7, 2013 by RJLbwb

[RJLbwb]

On the OP, who wins the Civil War?

 

Well in the Dark Brotherhood quest line the emperor himself shows up in Skyrim for a tour threw the province. That's hard to see if Ulfic wins or there is a stalemate. That sounds like Ulfirc is dead The Empire is trying win back the surviving moderates in the Stormcloaks.

Edited January 7, 2013 by RJLbwb

[blackninja50]

@RighthandofSithis The point I was making was the Nords are over confident and arrogant just like the French and would lose just like the French. Also "EDIT: The Akaviri took a naval route (because Vivec attacked their navies from the rear), they didn't have to cross the mountains." so could the Thalmor. Now I would love to argue this for the rest of time but seeing as we are talking about made up people fighting in a made up world, i don't see anyway one could prove the other wrong or them self right.

 

I will however end with this statement "There is no land in the world that has not been conquered and there is no such think as a impregnable fortress. So long as the attackers have the time and money needed".

Edited January 7, 2013 by blackninja50

[RighthandofSithis]

@RighthandofSithis The point I was making was the Nords are over confident and arrogant just like the French and would lose just like the French. Also "EDIT: The Akaviri took a naval route (because Vivec attacked their navies from the rear), they didn't have to cross the mountains." so could the Thalmor. Now I would love to argue this for the rest of time but seeing as we are talking about made up people fighting in a made up world, i don't see anyway one could prove the other wrong or them self right.

 

I will however end with this statement "There is no land in the world that has not been conquered and there is no such think as a impregnable fortress. So long as the attackers have the time and money needed".

 

Well, because I enjoy the debate, I intend to argue back.

 

 

A Naval route from Summerset to Skyrim would require them to pass either the Redguards or the Argonians (bad ideas), plus the logistics of such an invasion would be a nightmare, considering that piracy and distance would take its toll on the navy and economy.

 

And that final statement means that the attacker needs the resources to successfully invade Skyrim. Considering that they would either have to sustain a naval route, or occupy every Cyrodiilic city (in the easiest land route), then launch a full scale invasion capable of putting down the Nords, on their own hostile turf, I think they'd need A LOT of resources. And even then, to keep such a harsh land, they'd need even more resources. It sounds to me like an Invasion into Skyrim would ultimately ruin the Dominion.

 

And whoever it was talking about the Dossier, we know. It gives no evidence against the Stormcloaks.

Edited January 7, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Lachdonin]

A Naval route from Summerset to Skyrim would require them to pass either the Redguards or the Argonians (bad ideas), plus the logistics of such an invasion would be a nightmare, considering that piracy and distance would take its toll on the navy and economy.

 

The trip from Summurset to Skyrim, regardless of the route taken, would be considerably shorter than the Akiviri had to travel, and they would have had to contend with the infamous sea-monsters that lurk in the wide oceans of Nirn. The likelyhood of the Thalmor having less luck than them is somewhat absurd, considering they have much less distance to cover, and their 2 main threats are the Redguard (who were devistated by the extra 5 years of fighting) and the Argonians (who we have no evidence of having a Navy or really caring, so long as no one lands on their swamps). We also know the Domminion makes wide use of magic, and as has been pointed out, magic changes the dynamics of Warfare. An entire army, with Boots of Feather, could cross the mountains in days instead of weeks, or using Levitation just fly over them.

 

None of that is really the point to this, however, because it's nor an Imperial-vs-Stormcloak debate. it's a question of what you think the canon ending to the Civil War will be.

[RighthandofSithis]

A Naval route from Summerset to Skyrim would require them to pass either the Redguards or the Argonians (bad ideas), plus the logistics of such an invasion would be a nightmare, considering that piracy and distance would take its toll on the navy and economy.

 

The trip from Summurset to Skyrim, regardless of the route taken, would be considerably shorter than the Akiviri had to travel, and they would have had to contend with the infamous sea-monsters that lurk in the wide oceans of Nirn. The likelyhood of the Thalmor having less luck than them is somewhat absurd, considering they have much less distance to cover, and their 2 main threats are the Redguard (who were devistated by the extra 5 years of fighting) and the Argonians (who we have no evidence of having a Navy or really caring, so long as no one lands on their swamps). We also know the Domminion makes wide use of magic, and as has been pointed out, magic changes the dynamics of Warfare. An entire army, with Boots of Feather, could cross the mountains in days instead of weeks, or using Levitation just fly over them.

 

None of that is really the point to this, however, because it's nor an Imperial-vs-Stormcloak debate. it's a question of what you think the canon ending to the Civil War will be.

 

Ahh, debating with you about the naval route again. I can see this will come to no real conclusion, but regardless, I enjoy the debate.

 

I've never heard of the monsterous sea monsters in the seas between Akavir and Tamriel.

 

The Redguards have had around 20 or so years to recover, and there has been no indication that they have been unable to (unlike Cyrodiil).

 

The Argonians are known to be anti-Thalmor, and they don't seem to need a navy. They can live in the seas, they love the water, they could board Aldmeri Ships with stealth, and slaughter the crew. Albeit, I see the point, would they be that concerned about a passing navy? Would they feel threatened or not?

 

Regardless, sustaining a naval supply route across a continent is expensive. You need to supply the crews and the soldiers on the ground, maintain the ships, etc etc.

 

And using magic to levitate over the mountains would mean you have just landed an army in a hostile environment, without a secure supply or escape route. They would be besieged. And being able to cross the mountains in a few days doesn't mean they can walk straight past a phalanx in the mountains. of course, the could blow them apart with fireballs, but then, how did the Nords hold off the Aldmeri at Red Ring?

Edited January 8, 2013 by RighthandofSithis