You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[Lachdonin]

When someone like Saj can't even follow their opponents arguments without having them explained to him in a 10000 word research document, bibliography and all, it becomes pointless to argue with them.

 

So, suddenly providing sourced evidence and requesting decent argument formatting is a bad thing? Excuse me while i alert the media, the Trolls have finally won.

 

Sajuukkar is argueing that everything you do has an impact, and changes the way characters react to you. But it does so in a way that isn't as flashy or forces as... well... Every guild quest im Oblivion (lets face it, the game was a test to see how many world-ending events they could cram into one game. Between Undead, Daedra, Hist-junkies and flaming dogs, Cyrodiil was practically a write off).

 

The woman running a Sawmill sends you to look for her deadbeat husband, and when you find out he was murdered trying to provide for his family, from then on she thanks you for avenging him and for releaving the scorn she felt. When you complete the Civil War questline, supporters of the opposing faction resent you for your choice every time you walk by. People comment on your acheivements and your affiliations every time you run into them, with the obvious exception of the main quest, which has been dealt with before.

 

Most people had no clue Alduin had returned, or what exactly was happening. Dragons were comming back, that's all they knew. Even when you do Season Unending, you're only talking to the LEADERS of Skyrim, not the general public. No one in their right mind would stand infront of the general populace and shout "Ok, the World Eater is back, this guy is going to try to save us, but if he fails, we're all gonna die". It would incite panic. And when the deed is done, it's best to sweep it under the rug rather than tell those same panicy morons that you kept something that big from them. That's why there is very little recognition for defeating Alduin, because the entire situation was kept on a very need-to-know basis, and was in fact the type of situation where you could keep it low key. Absolutely, totally unlike the battle for New Vegas.

 

I will admit, the quest lines in Skyrim are rushed, but no more than they were in Oblivion. Oblivion's only advantage was the fact that you got a lot of the Morrowind-esque filler as padding. How many missions in hte Fighters Guild actually involved the Blackwood Company? 4? How about Necromancers? 3 or 4 there. The Theives Guild was probably the most well rounded in Oblivion, and again it's actually a good chain in Skyrim, working to build the trust of the guild and your station therin before being trusted with very serious, important information.

 

The point of this isn't that Sajuukkar (and myself, really) refuse to accept the validity of other arguements, its that other arguements are failing to dispute the facts we present. If you can't present proof, definitive, subjective or otherwise, that nothing you do in Skyrim affects how NPC's react, you aren't even making an arguement. You get more reactions, in a more realistic manner, out of people in Skyrim, than you ever did in Oblivion. All Oblivion had was end of the day hero worship.

[HeyYou]

When someone like Saj can't even follow their opponents arguments without having them explained to him in a 10000 word research document, bibliography and all, it becomes pointless to argue with them.

 

So, suddenly providing sourced evidence and requesting decent argument formatting is a bad thing? Excuse me while i alert the media, the Trolls have finally won.

 

Sajuukkar is argueing that everything you do has an impact, and changes the way characters react to you. But it does so in a way that isn't as flashy or forces as... well... Every guild quest im Oblivion (lets face it, the game was a test to see how many world-ending events they could cram into one game. Between Undead, Daedra, Hist-junkies and flaming dogs, Cyrodiil was practically a write off).

 

The woman running a Sawmill sends you to look for her deadbeat husband, and when you find out he was murdered trying to provide for his family, from then on she thanks you for avenging him and for releaving the scorn she felt. When you complete the Civil War questline, supporters of the opposing faction resent you for your choice every time you walk by. People comment on your acheivements and your affiliations every time you run into them, with the obvious exception of the main quest, which has been dealt with before.

 

Most people had no clue Alduin had returned, or what exactly was happening. Dragons were comming back, that's all they knew. Even when you do Season Unending, you're only talking to the LEADERS of Skyrim, not the general public. No one in their right mind would stand infront of the general populace and shout "Ok, the World Eater is back, this guy is going to try to save us, but if he fails, we're all gonna die". It would incite panic. And when the deed is done, it's best to sweep it under the rug rather than tell those same panicy morons that you kept something that big from them. That's why there is very little recognition for defeating Alduin, because the entire situation was kept on a very need-to-know basis, and was in fact the type of situation where you could keep it low key. Absolutely, totally unlike the battle for New Vegas.

 

I will admit, the quest lines in Skyrim are rushed, but no more than they were in Oblivion. Oblivion's only advantage was the fact that you got a lot of the Morrowind-esque filler as padding. How many missions in hte Fighters Guild actually involved the Blackwood Company? 4? How about Necromancers? 3 or 4 there. The Theives Guild was probably the most well rounded in Oblivion, and again it's actually a good chain in Skyrim, working to build the trust of the guild and your station therin before being trusted with very serious, important information.

 

The point of this isn't that Sajuukkar (and myself, really) refuse to accept the validity of other arguements, its that other arguements are failing to dispute the facts we present. If you can't present proof, definitive, subjective or otherwise, that nothing you do in Skyrim affects how NPC's react, you aren't even making an arguement. You get more reactions, in a more realistic manner, out of people in Skyrim, than you ever did in Oblivion. All Oblivion had was end of the day hero worship.

 

And Farengar keeps telling me to go the college at Winterhold if I have any aptitude for magic. As I stand there in my Arch Mages robes......

 

Also, one of the points of contention here (and the major one, in my opinion) is his definition of "choice" on accepting, or not... quests. His contention that you can't get quests just walking past folks is wrong, even though he still maintains that you can 'avoid it'....... You seem to be in agreement with him here... in that it isn't a 'journal' per se, but a log.... I am not entirely sure just what the difference there is..... either way, you get a list of things to do, not all of which you have any interest in doing, but, you have no option to clear them from the log, as completed quests are cleared.

 

Yes, some of your actions do indeed have an impact on the world around you, and folks reactions to you change accordingly. Unfortunately, those are in the minority.... You can be the head of a guild, and folks, including members, still treat you as if you have never joined, or, are still the low man on the totem pole.

[JimboUK]

Just found this video. Though it's not entirely the same, I'd say the dude sums it all up quite brilliantly:

 

Excellent video, it's sums up exactly why I don't like the game. Nothing you do makes the slightest bit of difference to anyone or anything, the characters are bland, the quests are dull and the story is tired. I never felt part of anything, I felt like my character was nothing more than a camera watching some not very interesting events unfold. The game looks stunning and there's very good artistic design in there but that's it. Bethesda really need to start investing in writers, an awful lot of the issues with their games can traced back to the appalling writing and a staggering lack of imagination, it's hard to believe this is the same company that bought us Morrowind.

[HeyYou]

Just found this video. Though it's not entirely the same, I'd say the dude sums it all up quite brilliantly:

 

Excellent video, it's sums up exactly why I don't like the game. Nothing you do makes the slightest bit of difference to anyone or anything, the characters are bland, the quests are dull and the story is tired. I never felt part of anything, I felt like my character was nothing more than a camera watching some not very interesting events unfold. The game looks stunning and there's very good artistic design in there but that's it. Bethesda really need to start investing in writers, an awful lot of the issues with their games can traced back to the appalling writing and a staggering lack of imagination, it's hard to believe this is the same company that bought us Morrowind.

 

Yee Haa!! Someone gets it. :D

 

I see the major problem being Beth going mainstream. They are appealing to the casual gamers, so the games get more and more simplified. Unfortunately, that's where the big money is..... Don't expect it to change.

 

TESVI will have three skills..... combat, stealth, and magic....... and a boatload of perks.....

[imperistan]

So, suddenly providing sourced evidence and requesting decent argument formatting is a bad thing? Excuse me while i alert the media, the Trolls have finally won.

 

No, its not a bad thing. A bad thing is when the sheer amount of evidence and explanation that would be required JUST to cover every possible base he'd try to pick at would require me to reserve several posts in advance. And given his past responses, that simply is not worth it, as he'll ignore the vast majority of it anyway and stubbornly reiterate his arguments.

 

I see the major problem being Beth going mainstream. They are appealing to the casual gamers, so the games get more and more simplified. Unfortunately, that's where the big money is..... Don't expect it to change.

 

Thing is though is that Beth doesn't even have to try to appeal to the casual gamers now. After Oblivion (and now Skyrim) Beth could do whatever they want and still get stupid amounts of money just for slapping Elder Scrolls on the box, regardless of how the actual game is. Beth's continual "streamlining"*** is pointless now because casuals will buy it up all the same, so why not do some service towards the original fans?

 

***Streamlining =/= removal

[JimboUK]

So, suddenly providing sourced evidence and requesting decent argument formatting is a bad thing? Excuse me while i alert the media, the Trolls have finally won.

 

No, its not a bad thing. A bad thing is when the sheer amount of evidence and explanation that would be required JUST to cover every possible base he'd try to pick at would require me to reserve several posts in advance. And given his past responses, that simply is not worth it, as he'll ignore the vast majority of it anyway and stubbornly reiterate his arguments.

 

I see the major problem being Beth going mainstream. They are appealing to the casual gamers, so the games get more and more simplified. Unfortunately, that's where the big money is..... Don't expect it to change.

 

Thing is though is that Beth doesn't even have to try to appeal to the casual gamers now. After Oblivion (and now Skyrim) Beth could do whatever they want and still get stupid amounts of money just for slapping Elder Scrolls on the box, regardless of how the actual game is. Beth's continual "streamlining"*** is pointless now because casuals will buy it up all the same, so why not do some service towards the original fans?

 

***Streamlining =/= removal

 

This is worth looking at, it shows just how much stuff they've removed from the games http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Oblivion_for_Morrowind_players

 

Other companies add more stuff to sequels, Bethesda does exactly the opposite. I shudder to think what they're going to with Fallout 4.

[screendrop]

TESVI= Turret missions and air strikes against jug suits in survival mode

[sajuukkhar9000]

This is worth looking at, it shows just how much stuff they've removed from the games http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Oblivion_for_Morrowind_players

 

Other companies add more stuff to sequels, Bethesda does exactly the opposite. I shudder to think what they're going to with Fallout 4.

Bethesda removes things in order to make the remaining things better.

 

Things such as lowering the total number of armor pieces

-Allowed more NPCs to be on the screen

-Allowed armor pieces to have more detail

-Made each individual armor piece more important

-Made perk systems like matching set, and custom fit actually useable

-And with the dual enchanting system wwe can have the same number of enchantments as we did back in Morrowind, despite having less armor to wear.

 

Skyrim has a lower total number of things like weapons/armor pieces, but Bethesda always adds something to make the game more deeper in return.

 

Most of the Skyrim removed X argument work solely on a numbers basis, i.e. 1<2, and not a mechanics one. Mechanically, Skyrim does far more per item then Morrowind ever did.

Edited February 7, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[blackninja50]

-lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not change the number NPCs you can have on screen at a time by a large enough amount to be justifiable.

 

-lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not allow the armor pieces to have more detail. In fact some of the highest detail armors have lost of pieces.

 

-I don't see how making each individual armor piece more important justifies dumping down the armor system.

 

-lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not make perk systems doable that's just bulls*** you could have each armor set have 50 pieces and still have a working perk system if you actually spent the time to make it and didn't just rip it from fallout.

 

-With Skyrims dual enchanting system you can have 14 enchantments. Armor, Boots, Gauntlets, Helmet, Shield, ring and necklace.

In Oblivion you have Cuirass, Greaves, Boots, Gauntlets, Helmet, Shield, 2 rings and a necklace all of witch can be enchanted with 1 or more enchantments. Meaning you can have 9,18,32 or 41 enchantments.

In Morrowind you can have a maximum of eight effects that can be added to an item and seeing as you can have like 10 15 items on at a time you can have 120 enchantments. So no you do not have the same number of enchantments by any stretch of the mind.

 

As for your "Mechanically, Skyrim does far more per item then Morrowind ever did." Skyrim was made 10 years after Morrowind, if Skyrim did not mechanically out do Morrowind by a landslide it would be downright pathetic. Skyrim should out do both Morrowind and Oblivion numerically and mechanically (again it's 10/4 years older and way more money was spent) but as it is Skyrim is barley (if at all) better in either way. If you included moding witch is biggest feature and selling point of Elder Scroll games Morrowind and Oblivion are mechanically and numerically just as good as Skyrim if not better.

Edited February 7, 2013 by blackninja50

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

-Actually, it does. If we had Morrowind's armor system in Skyrim those 30NPC battles in the civil war would have been reduced to 10.

 

-All armors in Skyrim have the same number of pieces so...... that's impossible.

 

-Because instead of being able to just walk around without pauldrons and still do fine, you actually NEED armor to survive? I could walk around in Morrowind missing 2-3 armor pieces because each individual armor piece was worthless because you had so many of them.

 

-If we had Morrowind's armor system, can you honestly tell me that the custom fit perks would do doable? in all my time of playing Morrowind, the only time I ever had a full set of some armor, was glass armor, there was WAY to many pieces in Morrowind to make many of Skyrim's perks feasible.

 

-Objects in Morrowind and Oblivion could be enchanted only once, meaning

--Morrowind = 16 (curiass, helm, pauldronX2, greaves, boots, gauntlesX2, ringX2, necklace, pants, robe, shirt, weapon, belt)

--Oblivion = 10 (boots, cuirass, gauntlets, greaves, helmet. shield, ringX2, necklace, weapon)

--Skyrim = 16 (helm, cuirass, boots, gauntlets, shield, ring, necklace, weapon)X2

 

-Having more objects means nothing if you cant make each item type diverse, putting in more weapons doesn't make the game better, it only gives Bethesda less time to make each item type good. Morrowind and Oblivion only beat out Skyrim numerically because all of its items had little, if anything, to make them different. All melee weapons in Morrowind were essentially just swords with different skins, whereas Skyrim gives them things like differing speeds, stagger levels, noise levels, and special effects via perks.

 

Games do not just more on a "more quantity AND more quality" equation. You have either have more items that do less, or less items that do more, not to mention the fact that video game budgets are skyrocketing to even higher levels each year, meaning Bethesda has to male considerably more and more money in order to be able to just even make something at the level of their last time. To believe that games should have more, and everything should do more, is to ignore the entire situation of video game development, and cost.

Edited February 7, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000