Another thread about switching from Vortex to MO2

[ouibonjour]

I'm a heavy mod user. After lowering my amount of mods, I'm "down" to 200 esps and 186 esls and esps-tagged-as-esls.

Even though most of my mods were working fine with very few CTDs, I recently found a Fallout 4 "Master Load Order Template" that was very detailed in which mod should go where in the order, explaining the reason why for each mod or mod category – And then I realized that a lot of things were wrong in my order.

However, as you know, moving mods around in Vortex is not an easy task when you have a big lot of them. Rules can be made, Load Index can be changed manually but it's still limited to 2 digits/letters, and apparently does not work well with ESPs-flagged-as-ESLs, as they all get FE as a load index (with 3 digits afterwards).

Anyways, I'd like to be able to simply drag each mods to the position I'd like, and also be able to make my own categories in order to change my load order based on those categories.

I already tried downloading MO2 and use Vortex staging folder as MO2 staging folder, but I did not know I had to uninstall/disable/purge them all in Vortex. So evidently it did not work well : Most mods appeared twice in the left pane of MO2, appearing on top first as "unmanaged" and also appearing lower as regular mods. I tried moving them around ignoring the unmanaged version of them all (I still don't know what those were and what to do with them), and in the end it did not work how I hoped.

I was lucky, as playing with MO2 while using the same Staging folder as Vortex did not mess anything on Vortex's side that I could notice, as I was able to continue playing with all my mods like before without changing anything once back in Vortex, I simply tried launching the game like MO2 had never been in the equation and it went smoothly with no notifiable differences. I'm still playing with Vortex since then, with tons of new mods added (and tons of removed ones as well).

Now I'd like to try again. But I'm afraid to purge all my mods in Vortex as 95% of them work right now and I worry that if MO2 does not go well for me I might have problems switching back to Vortex again. I once tried purging all of my mods, and for some reason I was not able to simply re-deploy them all at once and add to "select all" and then re-install. However Vortex has not "apply this to all" when they ask you a confirmation for installing them, so I couldn't just click "install all" and come back an hour or so later : I had to stay there and click a confirmation between each separate installation (if I didn't it would stay on that confirmation window and would halt all the following installs and wait for me). This took me hours and I'm not even exaggerating. I'm sure there's something I did wrong, but I'm afraid to get there again.

I guess the other option would be to use a different staging folder for MO2 and install them all trough MO2, and if it does not work I could simply delete that staging folder and continue with Vortex (in which I would not have disabled/purged any mods). Would that work ? I'm afraid it wouldn't as even if staging folders would be different, they'd both be affecting the original data folder. Right ?

Also, I also added some mods manually, with archives of those mods being in my regular window's Download folder, instead of Vortex download folder (for example mods not coming from Nexus but other modding communities. I also manually modified some ini's in the Data folder, or even in their respective staging folders after installation (I was able to personalize some mods I understood well enough to do so without breaking them - So I guess I should also back all those inis up before reinstalling those mods in MO2 if I want to keep my personalizations of them — but I'm afraid I did not keep track of which mods I modified, which ones I didn't).


I also read earlier today other people asking how to migrate from Vortex to MO2, and some people suggested that I should also try to use the same Load Order in MO2 as I had with Vortex for my first launch through MO2 (and that I could then modify their order afterwards for my next launches) as it could otherwise break my saves. Is it really required ? That would be very tedious as I have a lot of mods. If I skip that, would I risk breaking only my current save, or all saves where I saved while using those mods ?

Another issue I'm facing is that I fixed SEVERAL (and I mean SEVERAL) conflicts by adding exception rules without actually moving the mods in the order, both in the MODS section and the PLUGINS section. I'm pretty sure I'll need to memorize them all too in order to re-apply each of them once I re-installed all mods in MO2 ?

Also, I have A LOT of mods that I installed through Vortex, then disabled afterwards without uninstalling them (Limiting how many mods appear in blue in my mod list It helps me find newly downloaded mods more quickly when they are the only being blue). I understand that my Vortex download folder does not keep track of which mods are active and which are not, so when installing them in MO2 I would need to do check them one by one instead of just clicking "install all", correct ?

I wished there'd be a way to back up current order with Vortex, then be able to drag each mod easily to the position I where I want them, and simply roll back to my previous order if it happens that it did not work well. I know there is already an option to back up the current order, and I tried saving it a few times, but when it came to restore the saved modlist it seemed like it did nothing and that I was stuck with the newly modified load order. Again, I understand I'mdoing something wrong, but sinc e I still haven't found what exactly, I'm afraid to hit that same wall again.

Darn, it feels like there is so much I need stuff I need to organize and prepare just before migrating to MO2, and then so much stuff I need to do manually even once I migrated haha.

Is it only me who sees this as a huge mountain when there is actually simpler ways to do it, or am I indeed in a very fastious situation if I want to migrate with my current situation ? Please tell me there is a simpler way lol

I believe it might be "easier" to simply make a copy of my current DATA folder, a copy of my current Vortex Staging folder, a copy of my saves, then move them somewhere else, uninstall fallout and reinstall it somewhere else without any mods and then install them from MO2 on a vanilla build (or I could even keep the current Fallout installation on a drive, only back up my saves and move them, and install another instance of fallout on a different drive and only use that one when using MO2 and the other one if I need to revert back to Vortex. However I would face the same issue with my current saves if the load-order is too different from how it was when I last saved in-game while using Vortex correct ?

If there is no simpler way to migrate to MO2, could I have more success with another Mod Organizer ? I also have Wrye Bash that I sometimes use to flag ESPs as ESLs, but other from that I don't really understand of the program works. Or is there a way to move mods in the Load Order in Vortex with more freedom ?

All I'd want to do is be able to move mods to the position I want. If I have to move them all one by one that'd be okay as long I can move them, but if I could also move specific mods to specifics categories, then move entire categories all at once before of after some other categories that would be even better.

Even though I think there won't be any simple fix to my issues, I thank you all in advance if you can get me some advices ! :D

[HadToRegister]

First mistake - "Thinking that the grass is always greener" and following an online "Perfect Load Order Guide", as they are nonsense, and are based solely on the writer's personal preference, when your load order was perfectly fine with LOOT in Vortex sorting it properly.

Second Mistake - Trying to use MO2 AND Vortex together

This is the Vortex Support forum, you're trying to use MO2, and the current state of your Vortex/MO2 install is so messed up, you're best off starting all over again, and seek help in the MO2 forum after you manually delete your game folder, your mods and uninstall Vortex and MO2 and reinstall MO2.

[ouibonjour]

I agree that the grass is not always greener at the neighbors and also that no Load Order guide is full proof.

However, the one I found is not claiming to be full-proof and the several mod authors and community members who worked on it over 2 years (I believe) detailed every suggestion with explanations on why they think this or this change could be a good idea. It is also less a "Load Order guide", and more like huge organized information reference on mods, plugins, scripts, issues that could be caused by them, how to avoid most issues, how to avoid specific issue, how to back up saves and why it's important, etc. I will put a link at the end of my post as it was a really complete guide that teached my a lot. As for the Load Order suggestions, I was not planning on following them blindly, but simply use what information I learned from it to correct some mistakes in my load order.

I understand what you mean when you say "when your load order was perfectly fine with LOOT in Vortex sorting it properly" and know that Vortex does a great job there, however it's clear that I didn't move mods around just for the heck of it lol I did it to fix issues that I was having (that were for example easier for me to correct by moving a specific mod lower in the list instead of creating 17 different exception rules). I'm sure it was probably not the best way to proceed, however I believe I managed to do a not too bad job as I have only a couple of mods that don't work how I'd like to out of the 386 total plugins (or 453 enable items under the Mods tab) I'm using, experiencing very few CTDs on rare occasions. I however understand how my messing-around in the mod order makes migrating to other MM or troubleshooting my issues a real pain lol

Just to clarify that I'm not arguing that I know better than LOOT and Vortex, very far from it. I'm just explaining "why" I did move mods around in the first place.

I agree that my question about migrating out of Vortex on a Vortex forum might have been out of places. I'm sorry if that was badly perceived, that wasn't my intention. I only did so as I've seen other asking the question here getting some great suggestions from you guys so I thought it wasn't bad practice. I also posted here because I know that I don't know everything about Vortex and hoped someone would tell me about a feature that I didn't know that would be able to do what I want.

In fact, I did actually find a Vortex feature that I didn't know existed, like just a few minutes after posting my question, which could help me do what I'd like to try. Even though I knew about the categories in the Mod section, I never really looked into the "Groups" features under the Plugin tab, as I initially assumed they might be the same thing. I was happy when I found out they were not and that I could actually pretty much do what I was looking for with those without having to migrate out of Vortex.

I've been looking and googling for a way to do this for a while before I made this post, but I guess I was bad at formulating what I was looking for since I found nothing for a long time until I ended up on BigBizkit's Help Center, FAQ & Documentation thread on this forum almost by accident :laugh: I don't know how I missed it since it was actually pinned lol Anyway, there I found links about Groups and Managing Load Order and I think I'll be able to achieve what I'd like to do with the information I found here. I think that I'll read a little bit more on how to back and restore load orders first, back up my saves and then have a try there !

In case someone ends up on this post while searching the same thing as me, I'll post the links I found that helped me :

Vortex Help Center, FAQ, Documentation :

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7060326-vortex-help-center-faq-documentation/

• Managing your load order. Plugin rules and group rules - https://wiki.nexusmo...your_Load_Order
• What is the difference between "groups" and "categories"? - https://wiki.nexusmo..._and_Categories
  
  

As for the document I found that explained a lot about different types of mods, plugins, scripts, which types to avoid putting before or after which other types and why – I know there is nothing full proof and that you have a bad opinion on that kind of document – But I'll still put the link here as it's not only giving information about load order issues, but also giving a lot of other information in its 152 pages that I did not find elsewhere else so far. I think it's possible you might find some of its content interesting : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aknl_ze1hHUCiTBgz55dSzBBsfvG7iGXlRNIGWObyME/edit#

Here is a screenshot of a part of its Table Of Contents to get an idea of what information is shared in it :


I'm not assuming that everything in it has to be taken as cash, but I found a lot of information that helped me understand why I experienced some specific issues and how to to prevent (or, if possible, fix) them. Sometimes it's good to get some direct solutions to our issues, but I find it interesting what happens behind the scene when such issues happen.

Anyway, maybe it'll help somebody some day !

[HadToRegister]

 

I understand what you mean when you say "when your load order was perfectly fine with LOOT in Vortex sorting it properly" and know that Vortex does a great job there, however it's clear that I didn't move mods around just for the heck of it lol I did it to fix issues that I was having (that were for example easier for me to correct by moving a specific mod lower in the list instead of creating 17 different exception rules). I'm sure it was probably not the best way to proceed, however I believe I managed to do a not too bad job as I have only a couple of mods that don't work how I'd like to out of the 386 total plugins (or 453 enable items under the Mods tab) I'm using, experiencing very few CTDs on rare occasions. I however understand how my messing-around in the mod order makes migrating to other MM or troubleshooting my issues a real pain lol

 

 

 

IF you had to make 17 different rules to move ONE mod farther down a list, then you were doing it VERY Wrong.

[ouibonjour]

Might be, but it was more an example than an exact memory. What I meant to convey was that when I was moving mods, it was in contexts where it seemed to me like it was the best way to do so.

I'm not saying I was right and that there wasn't any better ways to do it : I'm not a modder nor a Vortex expert, I'm a newbie that tries things and sometimes comes here for advices and suggestions.

I feel like you have a negative opinion of me or my posts because I made the mistake of moving mods, unless it's based on something else that I'm not aware of (in fact, I might even be incorrect in that feeling, and if it's the case I'm sorry for that). I'm sorry that as a newbie, I'm making newbie mistakes. It's not because I take some time to explain the reasoning I had when I made those mistakes that I discard advices against it. Sometimes written discussions make it hard to know for sure what was the intended tone of someone's message, but I can assure you that if you felt anything unpleasant about mines it was truly unintentional.

That being said, I now understand that you have a strong feeling against moving mods and I'll accept that. I guess you never had issues that convinced you to move mods around, but with my limited knowledge as a newbie. it happened to me. I don't mean that it happened to me that moving them WAS the thing to do, just that I've faced situation where I THOUGHT it was. For example, when you're having issues with a mod and read that the mod author suggests to put the mod near the end of the load, but see that Vortex didn't, you don't question Vortex's integrity or anything like that : you just see a problem on one hand and a suggested solution on the other hand. As a newbie, you take for granted that the mod author knows what he's talking about, especially when you see people in the comments saying that they did so and it worked, so you try it. And when you do so and it actually makes that issue go away, there's a lot of chances you might do it again the next time you see that suggestion.

By your activity here, I assume you're very knowledgeable of Vortex and modding in general, which I'm not. However, it's hard for me to grasp how someone that is using a big amount of mods might never come to a situation where a mod is not working the way it should from where Vortex installed it. Maybe you know ways of dealing which such issues that I don't know, but it's exactly why I come here : to get suggestions and advices that will help me learn on the subject and make less mistakes. Ok let's get to my "move a mod lower instead of making 17 rules" example : Let's say I have 30 mods, and that Vortex installs my new mod in position 10. I run the game and it doesn't work. I read the FAQ about that mod, and find nothing else except some people saying it does work better when this mod is near the end of the load. So in order to move my mod to position 30 (or 25, or 20), I could drag Mod#10 dependency icon and attach it to Mod#30, and specify Load #10 after #30. Sometimes it works and moves that mod in the 30th position, moving all the above mods one position higher. When it happens, it's perfect. However, sometimes instead of moving my new mod to position 30, it will keep that mod in position 10 but will move the mod that was at #30 up to #09. Technically, the rule was respected : Mod A indeed loads after Mods B, but in reality I wanted Mod A to be at the end, not move the last one above that one. Then I'm asking myself : will I need to repeat this step with #29, and then with #28, and so on, in order to get all the last mods to load before that one ?

When you don't know any better, and see only two possible options : the one with all the rules, or just going to the plugin tab and lock Mod A to Load Index 30, it's easy to take the easiest way, and thne if it happens to fix the issue it's then even easier to repeat that mistake again. And again, and again, as long as it keeps working. I mean, before I came here and saw your replies, I never thought there was something wrong about that, especially when you see several mod authors suggesting it, and users replying that it fixed their issue. And then when you try it too and it fixes your issue as well, it's easy to assume that you're doing the right thing.

If they are better ways to proceed, well that's exactly why I'm there! I'm all ears for new suggestions. However, with a current gameplay of several tens of hours, with 90-95% of all my mods working fine, if I'm told my only solution is to delete my game and all my mods I'll be sad and will try to find if less drastic options would be available.

 

With the feature of Groups that I just learnt about, suggested by an admin on the forum as an effective way to manage my load order, I feel like it's worth a try. If I can find what I did wrong when I wasn't able to recover my backed-up modlists and find a way to effectively back up and restore my current load order that'll be perfect! But even if I don't and the technique does not go as I expected, what do I have to lose if my only other alternative is to delete everything anyway ?

I'm having as much fun trying new ways to work with my mods and read more about them and test things out as I'm having fun playing the game, I'm sorry if that makes me look bad in the community while I do so and ask questions. I however feel like the mistakes I made have been made by a lot of other newbies. Maybe it does not look good to explain my reasoning behind past incorrect assumptions ? Maybe it makes me sound like a smartass ? I don't know, I feel like I'm clarifying every 3 sentences that I'm fully aware that my workflow was far from optimal due to my admitted lack of knowledge. It's possible that it's the fact that I write long wall of texts, I know some people hate that. If it's the case, I'm sorry : I'm having serious difficulties summarizing my thoughts in only a few messages. It's something I'd like to be able to do, but believe me it's not intentional : I do the same things in my emails, when texting my GF, heck I'll even find a way to write a novel while making a simple grocery list. All my thoughts are scattered everywhere (maybe that's why my mods are too lol) and so do my messages. Even once I notice I'm writing a novel I can't even stop myself. We all have are issues I guess!

I'm not here to make ennemies, I'm here to have fun. Looking for new mods and trying to understand a little more about how they work everyday are equally exciting to me as actually playing the game! So I plan on sticking around for a while on this forum, asking questions about my issues, as much as questions about my attempts as modding. So please don't see me in a bad eye just because I write infinite walls of text, as I know you're very active on the forum and we might cross path often. I'm here to have fun and discuss something that passions me.

( You're also fully allowed to fast-read my posts diagonally or even skip big chunks of them and I won't even feel offended ! I aready take for granted that most people do that already :laugh: )

Anyway, thanks for suggesting me not moving mods around anymore. Since deleting everything seems to be my only option, I think I'll mess around with Groups a little before I delete everything, like why not : I might learn new things while doing so! Once I'm done doing so and I'm back on a fresh start, I won't move mods anymore.

[Guest deleted34304850]

can you, in 1 paragraph, summize what your issue is please?

That's just a whole load of rambling nonsense with tangents going off all over the place.

[Zanderat]

I have used both MO2 and Vortex and decided to stick with Vortex. I prefer the UI. Functionally, they are pretty much the same. As for plugin load order, you can turn off auto-sort in Vortex. You can then drag and drop in Vortex to your heart's content. It will create a rule behind the scenes (that's how LOOT works) but once set, Vortex won't undo your load order if turn off auto-sort. (I do think this is unnecessary however. As trying to enforce a load order from a guide is a mistake.) YMMV.

 

[ouibonjour]

I have used both MO2 and Vortex and decided to stick with Vortex. I prefer the UI. Functionally, they are pretty much the same. As for plugin load order, you can turn off auto-sort in Vortex. You can then drag and drop in Vortex to your heart's content. It will create a rule behind the scenes (that's how LOOT works) but once set, Vortex won't undo your load order if turn off auto-sort. (I do think this is unnecessary however. As trying to enforce a load order from a guide is a mistake.) YMMV.

 

 

 

Thank you a thousand times for taking the time to help me :smile: I didn't know I could do that !! With this, combined with what I found yesterday about creating groups and managing rules that apply to them, I'll be able to do everything I wanted without the need to change program ! I also prefer Vortex over MMO and Wry Batch so far, even over NMM that I really liked too, I'm happy I won't need to use another program ! I'm also glad that I didn't delete Fallout 4 and all my mods. Thanks again sir !

 

As for the guide I found, don't worry : I don't plan on using the Load Order Template itself. But by explaining how different types of mods, plugins and scripts interact with each others, it helped me understand better some mistakes I made. I think your solution as well as the Group function will help me fix them more easily!

[HadToRegister]

 

Thank you a thousand times for taking the time to help me :smile: I didn't know I could do that !! With this, combined with what I found yesterday about creating groups and managing rules that apply to them, I'll be able to do everything I wanted without the need to change program ! I also prefer Vortex over MMO and Wry Batch so far, even over NMM that I really liked too, I'm happy I won't need to use another program ! I'm also glad that I didn't delete Fallout 4 and all my mods. Thanks again sir !

 

As for the guide I found, don't worry : I don't plan on using the Load Order Template. But by explaining different types of plugins and how they interact with each others, it helped me understand better some mistakes I made and I think your solution as well as the Group function will help me do this more easily!

 

 

 

 

ONLY USE GROUPS AS A LAST RESORT, otherwise you can go overboard and easily end up with Cyclical Rules

 

Also, the only time you should create any load order rules, is if Vortex complains about something.

If Vortex is silent, it's because there's nothing wrong.

[Zanderat]

Also, the only time you should create any load order rules, is if Vortex complains about something.

If Vortex is silent, it's because there's nothing wrong.

Agree to a point. LOOT sets your load order by applying various rules it has in its data base. So, yes. Loot will set your load order correctly. But there will be cases where you want one plugins changes to win over another for aesthetics or preference. Loot can't make those decisions for you.