Profiles Still Broken

[Tannin42]

Out of curiosity: If you guys assumed uninstalling a mod was per-profile, what did you assume the difference between a "disabled" and an "uninstalled" mod was?

[nt5raham]

Obviously I know better now, but at the time I was thinking there would be different "records" for the staging folders per Profile, just as there are for the Data folder.

• Disabled mod is one that is not in the Data folder for one profile, while still in the Data folder for another Profile
• Uninstalled mod is one that is not in the Staging folder for one profile, while still in the Staging folder for another profile.

In essence, the difference in Profiles between "disabled" and "uninstalled" is "Data folder" vs. "Staging folder." Otherwise the concept would be the same.

[Zanderat]

Out of curiosity: If you guys assumed uninstalling a mod was per-profile, what did you assume the difference between a "disabled" and an "uninstalled" mod was?

I thought it meant what @nt5raham described:

 

• Disabled mod is one that is not in the Data folder for one profile, while still in the Data folder for another Profile
• Uninstalled mod is one that is not in the Staging folder for one profile, while still in the Staging folder for another profile.

It seems logical. My assumption was that the profiles were independent from one another.

[Tannin42]

Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation.

To me it doesn't seem logical though, for two reasons:

a) When you create a new profile, that takes less than a second and it has all the same mods installed as the previous profile. How would that even work? If each profile had its own staging folder wouldn't the new profile have all mods as uninstalled or - if they get copied - the creation of a new profile would require copying many GBs of mods which would take much much longer?

b) To me, if we had separate staging folders for each profile and could magically copy gigabytes of data in less than a second, having three states for the mods would be completely pointless. If we had that, there would just be two states, uninstalled and installed and every installed mod gets deployed, end of story.

 

I'm not trying to blame this misunderstanding on you btw., obviously if users gets confused we have to consider how we can improve the UI to avoid that confusion, just trying to explain why I thought it was obvious and didn't push for more explanation.

 

Further: How would this explanation have to be presented such that you wouldn't have missed it?

We do link to gophers videos as tutorials inside Vortex which do explain this quite explicitly plus there is also an explanation text attached to the checkbox where you enable Profile Management in the first place that also explicitly says "All profiles for a game share the set of "available" mods, but each has its own list of "enabled" mods."

Obviously this isn't enough but what would have worked for you?

[AugustaCalidia]

@Tannin42

 

Thank you for your helpful (as always) post.

 

Here is my suggested answer to your question about presenting an explanation so that no one misses it. Use the "Remove" pop-up box that is activated on the mods page. In the box place a big warning that removing/uninstalling a mod is across all profiles.

[nt5raham]

 

Further: How would this explanation have to be presented such that you wouldn't have missed it?

We do link to gophers videos as tutorials inside Vortex which do explain this quite explicitly plus there is also an explanation text attached to the checkbox where you enable Profile Management in the first place that also explicitly says "All profiles for a game share the set of "available" mods, but each has its own list of "enabled" mods."

Obviously this isn't enough but what would have worked for you?

 

For me, consistent terminology would help. We are having a discussion in this thread about Enabled/Disabled and Installed/Uninstalled. Yet in your quote the term "available" is used. To me, if it is in the Downloads folder, it is "available."

[Tannin42]

The terminology *is* consistent, at least in this case. A mod is either "Uninstalled" or "Enabled" or "Disabled".

 

"Installed" is the opposite of "Uninstalled", meaning it includes both Enabled and Disabled mods.

"Available" covers *all* mods you have in Vortex, installed or not. Both Uninstalled and Installed mods are available to you.

 

> To me, if it is in the Downloads folder, it is "available."

 

Sure, but we can't all have our own terminology. Within Vortex we indeed try to be very consistent with terminology but that means we need to use different terms for different things.

 

 

@AugustaCalidia: Fair enough

[nt5raham]

The terminology *is* consistent, at least in this case. A mod is either "Uninstalled" or "Enabled" or "Disabled".

 

"Installed" is the opposite of "Uninstalled", meaning it includes both Enabled and Disabled mods.

"Available" covers *all* mods you have in Vortex, installed or not. Both Uninstalled and Installed mods are available to you.

 

> To me, if it is in the Downloads folder, it is "available."

 

Sure, but we can't all have our own terminology. Within Vortex we indeed try to be very consistent with terminology but that means we need to use different terms for different things.

 

 

@AugustaCalidia: Fair enough

 

It's not about each of us having our own terminology, it is about defining the terminology that is going to be used and sticking with it. If the term "available" is not defined or consistent with what has been used (Enabled/Disable/Uninstalled), then the user is left to come up with their own definition. That is what I meant - sorry if it was not clear.

 

Edit: Even your own post defines "available" as "all" mods you have in Vortex. I would still, at this point as a new user, apply that to mods in the Downloads folder based on your explanation.

[nt5raham]

Apologies - let me connect my thoughts better so others can see the scary things inside my mind:

 

Using the quote from the instructions with your explanation I just quoted:

• Tannin's definition of Available: "Available" covers *all* mods you have in Vortex, installed or not. Both Uninstalled and Installed mods are available to you.

Apply that definition to the instructions:

• Instructions in Vortex: "All profiles for a game share the set of "available" mods, but each has its own list of "enabled" mods."

Therefore, using the property of substitution,

• "All profiles for a game share the set of [*all* mods you have in Vortex, installed or not. Both Uninstalled and Installed mods].

We all know that the last statement isn't true, but it is what has just been said. When taken together, they result in uncertainty at the very least, if not error. We are all trying here, and I'm NOT AT ALL trying to get down on Tannin. I'm just trying to show how easy it is to get tripped up over wording, especially for a new user who has no clue what's going on inside the magic black box.

[nt5raham]

OK, I see what I just did there. I think the final statement is just as Tannin would have it, but I have been misunderstanding it (even though I have a fair idea about how Vortex handles Profiles).

• "All profiles for a game share the set of [*all* mods you have in Vortex, installed or not. Both Uninstalled and Installed mods].

My misunderstanding has been around the use of the term "share" in this context. I believe what Tannin & the instructions are saying is that if it is Uninstalled for one profile, it is Uninstalled for all profiles (which is reality).

 

What I have been looking at in terms of "shared" is that all Profiles have the option to use them, regardless of whether they are Uninstalled or not in another profile. But I have been missing the intended message that a decision to Install/Uninstall in one Profile will be propagated to all other Profiles.

 

OK, forgive my verbosity, but I think I have a suggestion about this aspect.

• Perhaps rather than saying the "mods are shared" it would help to say that the "state of being Installed or Uninstalled is shared" or "common across all profiles"?