Modding Bethesda Games on Game Pass - What we know so far

[RichWebster]

In response to post #91957498. #91958333, #91964623, #91969593, #91974693 are all replies on the same post.

BlasterMasterCaster wrote: This means we won't get more Bethesda and Obsidian games on Steam, isn't it? I fear we will lose the ability to mod games like we used to.

Pickysaurus wrote: I wouldn't jump to conclusions yet :) If you look at 343 (first-party Microsoft dev) and their release of Halo Master Chief Collection, which was on Steam as well as Game Pass. 

BlasterMasterCaster wrote: I hope you're right. I hope that in worst case scenario, at most, they become "timed-exclusive" to GamePass.

Malosar wrote: Microsoft stated in their Press Release after the merger that "some" future Bethesda titles will be exclusive to the Xbox Console and Xbox PC ecosystems.

OmegaDarkKnight wrote: They know how big the modding scene is for TES game; so it's unlikely those will ever be "Exclusive" to Xbox/Gamepass for more than a few months.

@OmegaDarkKnight I agree. It would be a mistake to block out the modding scene in future titles. Bethesda knows that, and my hope is MS will know it to.

I'm not too worried about these Game Pass versions setting a precedent, since all the games are available elsewhere already.

Also worth remembering that a game releasing on Game Pass doesn't mean you can't buy it. I purchased Forza Horizon 4 despite being a Game Pass subscriber because I wanted to own a copy. Edited March 17, 2021 by RichWebster

[Eolhin]

In response to post #91969568. #91972323, #91973983, #91977123 are all replies on the same post.

Eolhin wrote: I have a question, as someone doing support for a mod that does not use SKSE and might well be used by people on Game Pass...

Do those using games on Game Pass on a PC have access to the in-game console?  And does it work as it does for normal PC gamers?  (Edited for clarity)

When doing tech support, I always have to be aware whether the player I am helping is on PC, and can thus use console commands to get information and solve problems (if I talk them through it), or if the player is on XBox, and can not access the console, meaning I am restricted in what methods I can use to help them.

Thank you to anyone that knows the answer.  :)

ff7legend wrote: Nope.  The in-game console is only accessible on PC.  Consoles do not have access to the in-game console & never will.

Eolhin wrote: Right, but what about people accessing the game via Game Pass on  a PC?

Pickysaurus wrote: Yes the console works on PC. It's a full copy of the game 

Excellent, thank you.  :)

[Saggaris]

In response to post #91967003.

TXChannel34 wrote: This is the predictable end of gaming. The general rule for a successful business is to find something that makes money and scale it. This is just Microsoft scaling it. They know that something that is this popular and the bygone conclusion is that there will be enough subscribers that will stay with it, they don't care about the odd ones out. When I bought games from a brick and mortar store for my new alienware laptop was like seeing my kids born, only to find out when I installed them on my computer and then launched it, it said I had to get this "steam" thing to run the game I bought on the computer I paid for. this is nothing more than money grabbing as many have noted. I don't buy a bunch of games, I don't play a bunch of them, there are a few that I have and like, and if there is a game that comes out that looks cool I will buy it, and if I don't like it, I stop playing it. I paid the developers for the privilege of trying it out. If I like it, I buy more of their games, more of their DLCs, etc. I am not going to go on down this road, you all know what I mean. Games like Fortnite and the like, sure, make em subscription stuff. Games like Fallout, Skyrim, etc, they are for refined gamers, they aren't plug and play shoot em ups. If you've ever had a problem with windows, and tried their customer support for a fix, you already know what sort of an invironment we find ourselves in now. Only in the corporate mind would anyone be ok with being turned from a player into a payer and expect the customer to be happy about it.

If they were serious about their plan and keeping us happy, they'd offer us the ability to pay a small one time charge for a game, and subscriptions would be optional with an "in app purchase". I'm still fuming about having had bought a game and have to run it through the steam client. I believe that it causes a lot of the crashes that I experience in the game. I can be playing, the game crashes, won't start back up again unless I go to task manager and force quit the 13 steam apps running in the background. But that's a different thread. I spent the last week downloading a bunch of mods and dlc and working the bugs out, and am still not done to my satisfaction, but it;'s getting there. Heck, on the microsoft platform, all you get is the vanilla game and No DLCs, no popular mods, nada. Just the opportunity to pay Microsoft $50 per month for the privilege of playing the vanilla game using their game client which is required to play at all.

Have a Kudos for your 'rant' TX

I and a good few 'older' others feel the similar about being corporately stuffed.

[BellCube]

In response to post #91967003. #91979463 is also a reply to the same post.

TXChannel34 wrote: This is the predictable end of gaming. The general rule for a successful business is to find something that makes money and scale it. This is just Microsoft scaling it. They know that something that is this popular and the bygone conclusion is that there will be enough subscribers that will stay with it, they don't care about the odd ones out. When I bought games from a brick and mortar store for my new alienware laptop was like seeing my kids born, only to find out when I installed them on my computer and then launched it, it said I had to get this "steam" thing to run the game I bought on the computer I paid for. this is nothing more than money grabbing as many have noted. I don't buy a bunch of games, I don't play a bunch of them, there are a few that I have and like, and if there is a game that comes out that looks cool I will buy it, and if I don't like it, I stop playing it. I paid the developers for the privilege of trying it out. If I like it, I buy more of their games, more of their DLCs, etc. I am not going to go on down this road, you all know what I mean. Games like Fortnite and the like, sure, make em subscription stuff. Games like Fallout, Skyrim, etc, they are for refined gamers, they aren't plug and play shoot em ups. If you've ever had a problem with windows, and tried their customer support for a fix, you already know what sort of an invironment we find ourselves in now. Only in the corporate mind would anyone be ok with being turned from a player into a payer and expect the customer to be happy about it.

If they were serious about their plan and keeping us happy, they'd offer us the ability to pay a small one time charge for a game, and subscriptions would be optional with an "in app purchase". I'm still fuming about having had bought a game and have to run it through the steam client. I believe that it causes a lot of the crashes that I experience in the game. I can be playing, the game crashes, won't start back up again unless I go to task manager and force quit the 13 steam apps running in the background. But that's a different thread. I spent the last week downloading a bunch of mods and dlc and working the bugs out, and am still not done to my satisfaction, but it;'s getting there. Heck, on the microsoft platform, all you get is the vanilla game and No DLCs, no popular mods, nada. Just the opportunity to pay Microsoft $50 per month for the privilege of playing the vanilla game using their game client which is required to play at all.

Saggaris wrote: Have a Kudos for your 'rant' TX

I and a good few 'older' others feel the similar about being corporately stuffed.

Hold on a minute there: As far as we know, most Bethesda titles will be on the MS Store, yes, but we don't even know if they'll be on Steam, like Skyrim.  Personally, I'd prefer Bethesda releases their titles on Steam instead of the Bethesda.net Launcher because, honestly, that's too much bloat for my system. Bethesda titles, in my experience, are buggy and unoptimized. I don't need a buggy and unoptimized launcher running in the background, taking nibbles at my potato rig. Steam is very well optimized and well cared for.

As for the taskkilling the Steam processes: That is the game's fault. Steam provides a bunch of APIs for a game developer to make use of. If a game crashes and the game process isn't entirely dead, Steam provides an option to force quit a game if it is being stubborn. Personally, I've never had problems with Steam, only the games published on the platform. If the game crashes a lot, that's a very nieve answer to just blame the retailer service. The launcher is almost never the problem with a retailer; The problem is almost always with the game itself.

To top it all off, Game Pass is an *optional* thing, and it is $15 a month (for Ultimate), not $50. You can outright buy a copy of the game if you wish, or you can rent it and a bunch of other games for $15 a month. Personally, I would go Game Pass, but buy my Bethesda titles on Steam.


If there's one good thing I can see coming out of the MS-Zenimax deal, I do believe that Bethesda games will get better in terms of performance and bugs. Edited March 17, 2021 by GamingZacharyC

[BellCube]

In response to post #91953468. #91955698, #91957093, #91957748, #91962688, #91963348, #91963533, #91965618, #91967383, #91970368, #91971768, #91972538, #91972728, #91974393 are all replies on the same post.

phatbassanchor wrote: If this is the future, going back to game rental like renting VHS Tapes and DVD's and those filthy arcade tokens we railed against and finally got rid of so many decades ago, then I cannot participate.  These subscription services, microtransactions and other forms of cash grabbing greed are just what I feared Microsoft would do.  If these corporate clones have their way we will all be on a pay as you go basis for all gameplay within the next decade or two.  I won't stand for it!  I can and will find something else to do!
I buy my games.  I purchase the license to play a game as much as I want, however and whenever I see fit to play it.  I do not rent!  I do not subscribe to these services or the philosophy of greed that governs them.  
Sony already has my grandson addicted to their pay as you go service for his PS4, now PS5.  Every dollar he gets goes to those subscription cards.  That's what these corporations want, addicts paying them at every turn for every play.  I will not participate!
I want all my games on my PC.  I want my mods.  I want my script extenders to work full time.  I will have these things or I can and will take my ball and go home!  I'll go test games for a hungry up and coming game developer before I ever give in to the tyranny of greed that has attempted to insert itself so fiercely into the gaming marketplace.  We need to make our voices heard!  No more virtual arcade tokens!  Stop the greed!  Say NO to subscriptions and microtransactions!  No more pay as you go gaming!
Adventure on friends, Phat :)
PS:  Thanks for the tutorial.  I've had my Steam set up to avoid all CC updates since it last crashed my game in March of 2018.  If you play on PC, especially if you use script extenders, make sure to protect the many hours you have invested in creating your perfect load order and set your Steam to only update when launched through Steam and continue to use your manual script extender launch or the script extender launch in your mod manager.  Thanks for Vortex as well! :)  It's perfect for power users like me who are always changing mods.  I do testing and provide input for several notable authors, like Nicoroshi.  I'm always trying new mods.  Big thanks to all my favorite authors and conversion specialists who continually add new fun, joy and flexibility to my games :)

ff7legend wrote: Don't forget all those DATA OVERAGE CHARGES one is likely to incur depending on one's ISP either...  In addition, you need to set your Steam to OFFLINE MODE in order to totally avoid those stealth updates.  If you don't, the game will auto-update itself after a system reboot since Steam will check for a client update if not set to Offline Mode which in turn prompts any games in your Steam Library to check for updates & apply said updates without your knowledge/permission...

DaClockworkNinja wrote: You say this and you have a point, but I see it a little different. I do think its a cash grab and shouldn't be the norm but I'm grateful for this. The average game costs $60 to buy. I live in South Africa, that $60 to you ends up costing me R999 (my currency of Rand). The average salary here is R6000 to R10000 per month. 10% of that is tax, half of that is rent in a crappy place, then there's food etc. We cant afford R999 for a game. I see some Ubisoft crap is going for R1999 now. WTF!? Anyway, the Game Pass costs me R50 PM. I can play so many games for that price. It's affordable and I get to play some great games. So yes, its always nicer to buy and own your games, but for some this is the only way we can enjoy our hobby. I am one of the lucky ones who can afford such things, but I'm glad that it exists for some of my friends.

Pickysaurus wrote:

?You say this and you have a point, but I see it a little different. I do think its a cash grab and shouldn't be the norm but I'm grateful for this. The average game costs $60 to buy. I live in South Africa, that $60 to you ends up costing me R999 (my currency of Rand). The average salary here is R6000 to R10000 per month. 10% of that is tax, half of that is rent in a crappy place, then there's food etc. We cant afford R999 for a game. I see some Ubisoft crap is going for R1999 now. WTF!? Anyway, the Game Pass costs me R50 PM. I can play so many games for that price. It's affordable and I get to play some great games. So yes, its always nicer to buy and own your games, but for some this is the only way we can enjoy our hobby. I am one of the lucky ones who can afford such things, but I'm glad that it exists for some of my friends.

That's a really great insight and something I hadn't really thought about in this context, thanks for sharing :)

ff7legend wrote: That's all well & good but physical media should always be an option regardless.  All these corporate buyouts/mergers serve a singular purpose - the total MONOPOLIZATION of various industries which in turn drives down overall product quality while driving up the price of various goods/services.  There was a reason the late Teddy Roosevelt was adamantly against corporate buyouts/mergers here Stateside folks.  I fear the Micro$oft buyout of Bethesda will water down the quality of future releases, including TES6.  It would not surprise me in the least to see TES6 get locked behind the Micro$oft Store & Bethesda's crappy game launcher...  Take a good look at what happened to WoW after Activision got their GREEDY PAWS on Blizzard.  Blizzard Entertainment hasn't been the same since Activision's buyout/merger.  The same can be said for Bioware after their buyout/merger with EA...

showler wrote: Never had Steam set to offline mode, never had Steam install updates on a game I told it not to update.  No idea why some people have this problem.  This is with my system being shut down every night and over months up to a year without updating Fallout 4.

Also, anyone remember Direct2Drive and how angry people who bought Oblivion through that service were when OBSE didn't work?

ff7legend wrote: The issue lies with the Steam Client randomly checking for updates after a system reboot if not set to Offline Mode.  If Steam is online, it will randomly check for updates to the Client, install the Steam Client update & prompt all games in the Steam Library to check for updates & apply said updates regardless of the setting applied in Steam.  This issue began after Valve thought it a "genius" move to remove the Never Keep This Game Up to Date option from the game Properties menu via a Steam Client update several years back.  I've had it happen to me on several occasions which is why Steam is always locked in Offline Mode so a stealth game update doesn't break my script extenders.

showler wrote: Still, never had it update a game after updating Steam.  Maybe because I always start those games with the Script Extenders?

ff7legend wrote: I also launch the game with the script extender shortcut on my desktop.  Several times the game received a stealth update & the script extender would throw a game version mismatch error.  This is why Steam stays locked down in Offline Mode.  The majority of SKSE64-dependent mods utilize meh321's Address Library to combat Bethesda's tinkering with the game executable but there are still a few that do not.

Impulseman45 wrote: For all of you Steam users that are occasionally plagued by those nasty and unpredictable update, I do have a work around for you. 
First, you will of course need to have your games installed. Then, go to your games main folder, So this should X:/Steam/Steamapps/Common, "X" being your drive. You do have your games installed outside of the ProgramFilesX86 or ProgramFiles folders, right???
So, now you should be in your Steam\SteamApps\Common folder. I will use Fallout 4 as our game of choice, because it has CC content, and although its been a year since the games files have had an update, you just never know what is lurking in BGS's mind. Now change the name of the Fallout 4 folder to something like Fallout 4 old. Then right click and create a new folder, and name it Fallout 4. Open the new empty game folder and right click again and make another new folder. Name it Data. Now, go to Steam, and make sure its in Online mode, and chose Fallout 4 and uninstall the game. It will delete the new empty folder named Fallout 4, leaving the real game folder, called Fallout 4 Old in place and untouched. 

Now go back to the Steam\SteamApps\Common folder and rename Fallout 4 Old back to Fallout 4. Now you can go ahead and use the games native executable files to launch the game. Never use the Steam launcher to do it, as it will try and reinstall the game. The one thing that you should do if you do this to all your Bethesda games, and you really should, is leave Steam in Offline mode as much as possible, and also make sure its not set to auto launch when you start windows. I mean, you do realize its slows the booting process and all, and you simply do not need it running all the time.  

Now you can play your games and not worry that they are going to get hit with some big update that will break them. They will run just fine, as Steam does not remove the Windows Registry entries for the game. But if you leave the game folder renamed, well it will break your mod managers ability to control your mods, and of course the game may not launch as it expects to be in the original folder name. If you forget to have Steam running in Offline, mode, and launch the game, You can Kill Steam pretty fast, and then relaunch it back into safe mode and your game should be fine. I have been playing all my BGS games this way for nearly 4 years now without Steam updating the games until I am ready to do it myself or it simply time for a fresh install. 

Of course the better choice for the older BGS titles, Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas is to buy the GOG versions. They are pre-patched for 64 bit memory extensions by the GOG team, Fallout 3 has had the horrible WindowsLive Games code ripped out, and it runs a bit more stable than the Steam version does. Yes, it means you have to pay for it again, but they have it on sale all the time for like $7 US, and it a big upgrade over the Steam versions of the games. 

Anyway I hope this helps, but I have a very bad feeling that STARFIELD, and TES 6 are going to be a MS Game Pass exclusive titles for PC, I really can't see Microsoft letting Steam sell the game as well. This of course will mean no more modding like we have been for years. This is something that Microsoft has been pushing for a long time, the death of standard desktop apps in favor of their new Windows Store Apps API and their own Apple inspired "Walled Garden" to everything. What it means is that they get to control all of it, and modding these games is going to become very difficult. So unless the Script extender teams can learn and delve into how these new API's work and to insert the script extenders into the game at launch, well its pretty much game over.

We have heard about the death of modding on games for a long time now, but as long as the games worked as they always did, that is using the good old x86 code base for normal Windows desktop applications, its been a forgone conclusion that modding would eventually come along for a new game. But now with the all new Windows App API, all of this is out the window. Windows monitors these files for changes and it will invoke self repair if need be, and or update the apps without you consent. You can see how this is not going to be conducive to the way all of us have played games over the last few decades. Yeah, I am an old fart senior citizen. So don't be surprised when you hear all about STARFIELD and that its going to be and Game Pass exclusive, and only available through the Xbox on PC. 

What that means for me going forward is, I will not be playing STARFIELD, or TES 6, or Fallout 5, as long as they are locked behind the game pass and the Windows Store APP API on Windows.

Kursan wrote: Thank you for this extensive help guide! That is a great idea with the folder switch and I am going to do that. Although I still prefer Skyrim LE over SE and the old Skyrim has not been touched in years, still can't trust that fully.
Great tip for the GOG versions as well, think I will get Morrowind there for sure.
As for Starfield and TES6 you are right again I fear, saw an interview with Tod Howard and others where they pretty much let the bomb drop about those titles being gamepass exclusives, and my first reaction was F... there goes modding.
I have no strong feelings about Starfield, but am extremely bummed about TES6 because it will be set in an area and culture I really want to play; now I am not sure I will ever play it the way I would want to with mods of my choice. Then again I probably be dead by the time its released because I am an old fart as well :)

ff7legend wrote: The day Micro$oft/Bethesda locks their games behind the Micro$oft Store or Game Pass is the day I cease to play Bethesda games on any platform.  The other concern is Bethesda locking future releases behind their crappy launcher.  Any of theses scenarios will result in Micro$oft/Bethesda shooting themselves in the foot since mods are the ONLY REASON Bethesda games stay even remotely relevant a year past release...

ff7legend wrote: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2021/03/09/microsoft-and-bethesda-the-elder-scrolls-6-and-starfield-will-probably-be-xboxpc-exclusive/?sh=76bc678f3667

OmegaDarkKnight wrote: Except there hasn't been an update that broke SKSE in over a year; so there is no real point in needing to run offline mode.

Alright. Let's set the record straight here: You do NOT have to pay for Game Pass to play your Bethesda titles. There is a good chance that at least the TES titles will be released on Steam as well, or that MS will reform their store. And even if the games are not released on Steam, there will be an option to outright buy a copy of the game. Microsoft, as far as I'm aware, has never made a "Game Pass Exclusive" before.

[BellCube]

In response to post #91964123.

polraudio wrote: Why not just by default include SKSE if they get permission? Same for Fallout, Ect.

That's... a really good idea actually! SKSE is already free to download. Wouldn't it be better for everyone if Silverlock and Bethesda teamed up to release it to our Xbox, PlayStation, and Switch users?

[NotPC]

I don't have game pass and don't want it.  Microsoft isn't known for allowing mods in their games.  I have only ever bought one game on the store and it was a freaking disaster so lesson learned.  I don't care about Starfield, but if TES6 is an exclusive then I guess I won't be playing it.  I'm hoping they don't make it exclusive or if it is, only a timed exclusive. 

[BellCube]

In response to post #91955663.

ff7legend wrote: No pun/disrespect intended towards console users but with Game Pass, one does not actually own the game in question.  If one fails to renew their yearly subscription to Game Pass, one will lose access to all those so-called "free games" they downloaded to their console's HDD/SSD.  The same applies to PS Plus users.  One is far better off buying the actual game vs obtaining it via Game Pass/PS Plus. 

I actually prefer physical media vs digital downloads/recordings anyway.  With a physical copy, I actually OWN the game/music/movie in question & can watch/play/listen to it as many times as I wish without having to pay those nagging subscription fees.  Not only that but the overall sound/video quality of physical media is vastly superior vs digital downloads/recordings anyway.  I still have my CDs/Blu-rays for this very reason & will not pay a subscription fee just to watch/play a game/movie or listen to my favorite music.  Total RIPOFF.

Another thing to be concerned with are all those DATA OVERAGE CHARGES one is likely to incur depending upon the ISP.  Streaming games/movies/videogames eats up A TON OF DATA.  This is especially true for 4K/8K video streaming.  Many ISPs here Stateside have monthly data caps & charge a King's ransom for going over one's monthly data allotment.  Others will simply throttle one's internet speeds to the point where streaming is impossible depending on the device used.  Either way, physical media is vastly superior & will save one a TON OF $$$$$$ in the long run...

Someone's a misinformed ranter on this forum. First, find an ISP that doesn't have a ridiculous data cap. 1.2 terabytes a month, my data cap, is plenty for me.

Second, renting your game or movie from a service like Netflix, Disney Plus, and Game Pass are really great options for people who only want to watch a movie once or twice. Chances are I'm never going to watch Frozen 2 again. Renting an entire library of games is a great way to go for people who play a game for a short while (think Human Fall Flat) before needing a new one. Game Pass is a great option for games that aren't replayable. Beyond that, streaming quality is getting better and better. If quality is your concern, well, I'm sorry to say that you're not getting a disk of Flora & Ulysses any time soon. There are times when you have to decide: Wallet or impractical peace of mind.

Something that I haven't even mentioned today is that Game Pass DOES NOT MAKE PROFIT as of yet. Microsoft is taking a gamble with it and hoping that people stick around long enough.

Owning a physical disk because of ISP charges is a very uninformed answer that just screams to me "too stubborn to change." Think about it this way: Owning an Xbox disk is really just a container for a license key and some metadata. You still have to download the game over the internet. Also, if game streaming services like GeForce Now didn't exist, there'd be plenty of games I couldn't play with my potato. Instead of paying upfront for a bunch of expensive hardware, I choose to rent it. My household doesn't incur data cap charges, like, ever.

Of course, I don't know why I'm bothering in an attempt to change the mind of someone who argues so naively anyway. I guess this is here for someone else to read and agree with.

[Saggaris]

In response to post #91953468. #91955698, #91957093, #91957748, #91962688, #91963348, #91963533, #91965618, #91967383, #91970368, #91971768, #91972538, #91972728, #91974393, #91980443 are all replies on the same post.

phatbassanchor wrote: If this is the future, going back to game rental like renting VHS Tapes and DVD's and those filthy arcade tokens we railed against and finally got rid of so many decades ago, then I cannot participate.  These subscription services, microtransactions and other forms of cash grabbing greed are just what I feared Microsoft would do.  If these corporate clones have their way we will all be on a pay as you go basis for all gameplay within the next decade or two.  I won't stand for it!  I can and will find something else to do!
I buy my games.  I purchase the license to play a game as much as I want, however and whenever I see fit to play it.  I do not rent!  I do not subscribe to these services or the philosophy of greed that governs them.  
Sony already has my grandson addicted to their pay as you go service for his PS4, now PS5.  Every dollar he gets goes to those subscription cards.  That's what these corporations want, addicts paying them at every turn for every play.  I will not participate!
I want all my games on my PC.  I want my mods.  I want my script extenders to work full time.  I will have these things or I can and will take my ball and go home!  I'll go test games for a hungry up and coming game developer before I ever give in to the tyranny of greed that has attempted to insert itself so fiercely into the gaming marketplace.  We need to make our voices heard!  No more virtual arcade tokens!  Stop the greed!  Say NO to subscriptions and microtransactions!  No more pay as you go gaming!
Adventure on friends, Phat :)
PS:  Thanks for the tutorial.  I've had my Steam set up to avoid all CC updates since it last crashed my game in March of 2018.  If you play on PC, especially if you use script extenders, make sure to protect the many hours you have invested in creating your perfect load order and set your Steam to only update when launched through Steam and continue to use your manual script extender launch or the script extender launch in your mod manager.  Thanks for Vortex as well! :)  It's perfect for power users like me who are always changing mods.  I do testing and provide input for several notable authors, like Nicoroshi.  I'm always trying new mods.  Big thanks to all my favorite authors and conversion specialists who continually add new fun, joy and flexibility to my games :)

ff7legend wrote: Don't forget all those DATA OVERAGE CHARGES one is likely to incur depending on one's ISP either...  In addition, you need to set your Steam to OFFLINE MODE in order to totally avoid those stealth updates.  If you don't, the game will auto-update itself after a system reboot since Steam will check for a client update if not set to Offline Mode which in turn prompts any games in your Steam Library to check for updates & apply said updates without your knowledge/permission...

DaClockworkNinja wrote: You say this and you have a point, but I see it a little different. I do think its a cash grab and shouldn't be the norm but I'm grateful for this. The average game costs $60 to buy. I live in South Africa, that $60 to you ends up costing me R999 (my currency of Rand). The average salary here is R6000 to R10000 per month. 10% of that is tax, half of that is rent in a crappy place, then there's food etc. We cant afford R999 for a game. I see some Ubisoft crap is going for R1999 now. WTF!? Anyway, the Game Pass costs me R50 PM. I can play so many games for that price. It's affordable and I get to play some great games. So yes, its always nicer to buy and own your games, but for some this is the only way we can enjoy our hobby. I am one of the lucky ones who can afford such things, but I'm glad that it exists for some of my friends.

Pickysaurus wrote:

?You say this and you have a point, but I see it a little different. I do think its a cash grab and shouldn't be the norm but I'm grateful for this. The average game costs $60 to buy. I live in South Africa, that $60 to you ends up costing me R999 (my currency of Rand). The average salary here is R6000 to R10000 per month. 10% of that is tax, half of that is rent in a crappy place, then there's food etc. We cant afford R999 for a game. I see some Ubisoft crap is going for R1999 now. WTF!? Anyway, the Game Pass costs me R50 PM. I can play so many games for that price. It's affordable and I get to play some great games. So yes, its always nicer to buy and own your games, but for some this is the only way we can enjoy our hobby. I am one of the lucky ones who can afford such things, but I'm glad that it exists for some of my friends.

That's a really great insight and something I hadn't really thought about in this context, thanks for sharing :)

ff7legend wrote: That's all well & good but physical media should always be an option regardless.  All these corporate buyouts/mergers serve a singular purpose - the total MONOPOLIZATION of various industries which in turn drives down overall product quality while driving up the price of various goods/services.  There was a reason the late Teddy Roosevelt was adamantly against corporate buyouts/mergers here Stateside folks.  I fear the Micro$oft buyout of Bethesda will water down the quality of future releases, including TES6.  It would not surprise me in the least to see TES6 get locked behind the Micro$oft Store & Bethesda's crappy game launcher...  Take a good look at what happened to WoW after Activision got their GREEDY PAWS on Blizzard.  Blizzard Entertainment hasn't been the same since Activision's buyout/merger.  The same can be said for Bioware after their buyout/merger with EA...

showler wrote: Never had Steam set to offline mode, never had Steam install updates on a game I told it not to update.  No idea why some people have this problem.  This is with my system being shut down every night and over months up to a year without updating Fallout 4.

Also, anyone remember Direct2Drive and how angry people who bought Oblivion through that service were when OBSE didn't work?

ff7legend wrote: The issue lies with the Steam Client randomly checking for updates after a system reboot if not set to Offline Mode.  If Steam is online, it will randomly check for updates to the Client, install the Steam Client update & prompt all games in the Steam Library to check for updates & apply said updates regardless of the setting applied in Steam.  This issue began after Valve thought it a "genius" move to remove the Never Keep This Game Up to Date option from the game Properties menu via a Steam Client update several years back.  I've had it happen to me on several occasions which is why Steam is always locked in Offline Mode so a stealth game update doesn't break my script extenders.

showler wrote: Still, never had it update a game after updating Steam.  Maybe because I always start those games with the Script Extenders?

ff7legend wrote: I also launch the game with the script extender shortcut on my desktop.  Several times the game received a stealth update & the script extender would throw a game version mismatch error.  This is why Steam stays locked down in Offline Mode.  The majority of SKSE64-dependent mods utilize meh321's Address Library to combat Bethesda's tinkering with the game executable but there are still a few that do not.

Impulseman45 wrote: For all of you Steam users that are occasionally plagued by those nasty and unpredictable update, I do have a work around for you. 
First, you will of course need to have your games installed. Then, go to your games main folder, So this should X:/Steam/Steamapps/Common, "X" being your drive. You do have your games installed outside of the ProgramFilesX86 or ProgramFiles folders, right???
So, now you should be in your Steam\SteamApps\Common folder. I will use Fallout 4 as our game of choice, because it has CC content, and although its been a year since the games files have had an update, you just never know what is lurking in BGS's mind. Now change the name of the Fallout 4 folder to something like Fallout 4 old. Then right click and create a new folder, and name it Fallout 4. Open the new empty game folder and right click again and make another new folder. Name it Data. Now, go to Steam, and make sure its in Online mode, and chose Fallout 4 and uninstall the game. It will delete the new empty folder named Fallout 4, leaving the real game folder, called Fallout 4 Old in place and untouched. 

Now go back to the Steam\SteamApps\Common folder and rename Fallout 4 Old back to Fallout 4. Now you can go ahead and use the games native executable files to launch the game. Never use the Steam launcher to do it, as it will try and reinstall the game. The one thing that you should do if you do this to all your Bethesda games, and you really should, is leave Steam in Offline mode as much as possible, and also make sure its not set to auto launch when you start windows. I mean, you do realize its slows the booting process and all, and you simply do not need it running all the time.  

Now you can play your games and not worry that they are going to get hit with some big update that will break them. They will run just fine, as Steam does not remove the Windows Registry entries for the game. But if you leave the game folder renamed, well it will break your mod managers ability to control your mods, and of course the game may not launch as it expects to be in the original folder name. If you forget to have Steam running in Offline, mode, and launch the game, You can Kill Steam pretty fast, and then relaunch it back into safe mode and your game should be fine. I have been playing all my BGS games this way for nearly 4 years now without Steam updating the games until I am ready to do it myself or it simply time for a fresh install. 

Of course the better choice for the older BGS titles, Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas is to buy the GOG versions. They are pre-patched for 64 bit memory extensions by the GOG team, Fallout 3 has had the horrible WindowsLive Games code ripped out, and it runs a bit more stable than the Steam version does. Yes, it means you have to pay for it again, but they have it on sale all the time for like $7 US, and it a big upgrade over the Steam versions of the games. 

Anyway I hope this helps, but I have a very bad feeling that STARFIELD, and TES 6 are going to be a MS Game Pass exclusive titles for PC, I really can't see Microsoft letting Steam sell the game as well. This of course will mean no more modding like we have been for years. This is something that Microsoft has been pushing for a long time, the death of standard desktop apps in favor of their new Windows Store Apps API and their own Apple inspired "Walled Garden" to everything. What it means is that they get to control all of it, and modding these games is going to become very difficult. So unless the Script extender teams can learn and delve into how these new API's work and to insert the script extenders into the game at launch, well its pretty much game over.

We have heard about the death of modding on games for a long time now, but as long as the games worked as they always did, that is using the good old x86 code base for normal Windows desktop applications, its been a forgone conclusion that modding would eventually come along for a new game. But now with the all new Windows App API, all of this is out the window. Windows monitors these files for changes and it will invoke self repair if need be, and or update the apps without you consent. You can see how this is not going to be conducive to the way all of us have played games over the last few decades. Yeah, I am an old fart senior citizen. So don't be surprised when you hear all about STARFIELD and that its going to be and Game Pass exclusive, and only available through the Xbox on PC. 

What that means for me going forward is, I will not be playing STARFIELD, or TES 6, or Fallout 5, as long as they are locked behind the game pass and the Windows Store APP API on Windows.

Kursan wrote: Thank you for this extensive help guide! That is a great idea with the folder switch and I am going to do that. Although I still prefer Skyrim LE over SE and the old Skyrim has not been touched in years, still can't trust that fully.
Great tip for the GOG versions as well, think I will get Morrowind there for sure.
As for Starfield and TES6 you are right again I fear, saw an interview with Tod Howard and others where they pretty much let the bomb drop about those titles being gamepass exclusives, and my first reaction was F... there goes modding.
I have no strong feelings about Starfield, but am extremely bummed about TES6 because it will be set in an area and culture I really want to play; now I am not sure I will ever play it the way I would want to with mods of my choice. Then again I probably be dead by the time its released because I am an old fart as well :)

ff7legend wrote: The day Micro$oft/Bethesda locks their games behind the Micro$oft Store or Game Pass is the day I cease to play Bethesda games on any platform.  The other concern is Bethesda locking future releases behind their crappy launcher.  Any of theses scenarios will result in Micro$oft/Bethesda shooting themselves in the foot since mods are the ONLY REASON Bethesda games stay even remotely relevant a year past release...

ff7legend wrote: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2021/03/09/microsoft-and-bethesda-the-elder-scrolls-6-and-starfield-will-probably-be-xboxpc-exclusive/?sh=76bc678f3667

OmegaDarkKnight wrote: Except there hasn't been an update that broke SKSE in over a year; so there is no real point in needing to run offline mode.

GamingZacharyC wrote: Alright. Let's set the record straight here: You do NOT have to pay for Game Pass to play your Bethesda titles. There is a good chance that at least the TES titles will be released on Steam as well, or that MS will reform their store. And even if the games are not released on Steam, there will be an option to outright buy a copy of the game. Microsoft, as far as I'm aware, has never made a "Game Pass Exclusive" before.

Let's get this straight... "there's a good chance" is just another wish... it's not fact.
Many people see patterns and extrapolate an end point scenario... and to be honest, the line we see may go in either direction dependent on our viewpoint.

[Garul]

SKSE is pretty much a must have for any kind of real modded skyrim. Saying that other mods who don't need SKSE still work, reminds me of microsoft advertising how many great "mods" there are for minecraft windows 10 edition. No.....just....no...like ouh boy i can reskin a cow and make it use the zombie a.i. yaaaaay......meanwhile other mods let you explore the solar system, build fusion reactors and more.  IF and let me be very clear about this, i am saying IF future bethesda titles especially elder scrolls and fallout series, get bogged down or flat out crippled /disabled modding, those franchises will take at the evry least take a heavy hit. Modding is what keeps those games alive and if they take it away and are unwilling to work with their fanbases, the future looks grim :\