Trying to understand

[SwedishElk]

 

 

 

 

So, the million dollar question to the admins: if we fill out the form and respond to your follow up prior to august 5th, will you remove any and all traces of the mods we tell you to delete from this website, yes or no?

this has been answered. not clearly and not in basic yes/no format, but its been answered.

 

When did I say it hasn't been answered? I think this is a reasonable question to ask, given that I got the impression that Robin thought that the fact that he/she/they and the others gave mod authors a grace period to delete mods, combined with their intentions, would excuse their lack of allowing people to properly consent to this matter.

 

as far as i can tell, you never said about it not being answered. yes it is a reasonable question to ask, but as it's already been answered elsewhere, it won't get answered here just because you asked it.

but by all means, ask away.

just don't expect any answers because, like probably 99% of the users on this website, you're irrelevant. (just like me).

 

I wonder if admins will still think I'm irrelevant once I release a tutorial about how to use github to upload mod files, and then work together with a influential Modder to create a social media group where all the links to the repos could go?

 

Sounds like a good plan, problem would probably be to get everyone to cooperate. Been here so long and seen so much drama between MA's... :confused: But a good idea for sure.

[MarchinBunny]

So in most cases you suggest to "contact Nexus, and let them know of the circumstances".

 

I have a better solution: simply find a more convenient mod hosting service so that you can delete old crap without asking questions.

I think you have to understand that the reason I am on Nexus' side is because I have seen what can come out of modding communities when they work together instead of against each other. In other words, I want this to work. And so when I see something of which I would consider a very minor inconvenience vs what can come out of such a change, it just seems worth it by a pretty large margin.

 

I understand inconveniences ... no matter how small can be annoying. But in this case, I think it's important to look at the bigger picture here as well as the reasoning behind it. My two favorite games are Minecraft, and Skyrim ... these are the two games I can say I have played thousands of hours of. And what I have seen come out of the Minecraft community when "modpacks" (collections) became popular was amazing. It wasn't just people throwing mods together into a giant mess. What happened is you had pack creators create a union between the mods, some packs going as far as to create their own mods just to get it to work and create new and unique experiences we would never have had if not for that ability to exist.

 

And I also understand that they didn't have to go through the problem of mod deletion, and so they can still go on their page and just remove everything if they wanted to. But I also understand that Minecraft, and Skyrim are not the same games. Modding works differently between the two. And so, I understand why Nexus would want to make the decision that mods can't be fully deleted because it would cause a lot of issues, more so than it typically would for a game like Minecraft.

 

Last but not least, no matter what is said, no matter the reasoning ... not everyone is going to agree with it. And I am absolutely sure Nexus was already aware of that. Heck, even I knew this would happen as the years went by with each Vortex release getting closer and closer to the inevitable collections they have continued to talk about. No one is saying you have to agree with it. No one is forcing anyone to agree. But I just don't know what anyone wants who is against this but not leaving. They act like telling them to go their separate ways is some sort of slight against them or rude. But ... that's life. We all go our separate ways sometimes, that's just how it is. It's not anyone trying to be mean, it's just them speaking the truth. If you don't like it, then .... move on.

 

It can't hurt to try and create your own platforms, and maybe you will find a better solution than Nexus. But as of now, it's Nexus I personally agree with here, and so I am going to stick to defending them unless someone offers up something that changes my mind.

 

And let me be clear, I do think a system that allows deletion of mods could work. I just understand why Nexus doesn't want to go that route.

 

 

You can't force people to forget, but you can force Internet services to help you with that.

 

Right, but that is about personal information. That isn't going to help you remove everything you've ever posted on the internet.

 

And who is asking you to see "how" ? That's not your decision to make.

 

Right, but giving it some sort of explanation on how, can help me to understand. Cause as of now, I see plenty of other communities where they pretty much never delete old versions, and don't seem to have this problem. For example, Thaumcraft for minecraft actually has quite significantly different versions based on the version of minecraft it was released on. Tons of changes, and the old version is still up. Had no issues with adoption rates of the new version. Or rather, I just don't think it actually matters. Some people will continue to play 1.17.10, and some play on 1.12, and some play on the newest version.

 

If it's about support, like if you don't want to deal with getting massaged about a version you have not worked on in a while, just say you dropped support for it ... right? Rather than taking it away, just tell them they are on their own. They throw a fit, ignore them, ban them ... whatever you want. Already happens anyway, so not much is going to change there.

 

 

 

There are known examples of services that had offered deals to mod authors.

Ok, then just name one. Cause it's news to me. As for the premium and how much you get in donations. That's a good point, one I most certainly didn't consider. To be honest, I think Nexus should make Premium free for mod authors if they reach a certain threshold with their mod in terms of ... maybe endorsements or downloads. Seems odd you would have your contributors pay. So see ... here is an argument I think is a really good point. Just for those who just constantly want to call me a troll and act like I will only ever disagree.

 

 

 

No because it's archived already ?

Right, but the author has the ability to hide archived files. Meaning if it was uploaded, and then soon after archived, it's extremely unlikely anyone would have the information to even access the archived file which would have to be done through the API.

 

Something I also want to point out, and this is kind of a little more on the technical side of things in terms of computers in general. No file is ever truly deleted even when you "delete it" regardless of where on the internet you posted it. That isn't how storage typically works, all it does is remove the pointer to the files, it's essentially the equivalent of archiving. The same even occurs on your own computer. The only time a file becomes entirely inaccessible is when it's essentially been overwritten, and there is no way to be sure when that happens. It's why you can load up a recovery program and essentially undelete a file you just deleted it.

[KamariBVB]

 

 

 

 

 

So, the million dollar question to the admins: if we fill out the form and respond to your follow up prior to august 5th, will you remove any and all traces of the mods we tell you to delete from this website, yes or no?

this has been answered. not clearly and not in basic yes/no format, but its been answered.

 

When did I say it hasn't been answered? I think this is a reasonable question to ask, given that I got the impression that Robin thought that the fact that he/she/they and the others gave mod authors a grace period to delete mods, combined with their intentions, would excuse their lack of allowing people to properly consent to this matter.

 

as far as i can tell, you never said about it not being answered. yes it is a reasonable question to ask, but as it's already been answered elsewhere, it won't get answered here just because you asked it.

but by all means, ask away.

just don't expect any answers because, like probably 99% of the users on this website, you're irrelevant. (just like me).

 

I wonder if admins will still think I'm irrelevant once I release a tutorial about how to use github to upload mod files, and then work together with a influential Modder to create a social media group where all the links to the repos could go?

 

Sounds like a good plan, problem would probably be to get everyone to cooperate. Been here so long and seen so much drama between MA's... :confused: But a good idea for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, the million dollar question to the admins: if we fill out the form and respond to your follow up prior to august 5th, will you remove any and all traces of the mods we tell you to delete from this website, yes or no?

this has been answered. not clearly and not in basic yes/no format, but its been answered.

 

When did I say it hasn't been answered? I think this is a reasonable question to ask, given that I got the impression that Robin thought that the fact that he/she/they and the others gave mod authors a grace period to delete mods, combined with their intentions, would excuse their lack of allowing people to properly consent to this matter.

 

as far as i can tell, you never said about it not being answered. yes it is a reasonable question to ask, but as it's already been answered elsewhere, it won't get answered here just because you asked it.

but by all means, ask away.

just don't expect any answers because, like probably 99% of the users on this website, you're irrelevant. (just like me).

 

I wonder if admins will still think I'm irrelevant once I release a tutorial about how to use github to upload mod files, and then work together with a influential Modder to create a social media group where all the links to the repos could go?

 

Sounds like a good plan, problem would probably be to get everyone to cooperate. Been here so long and seen so much drama between MA's... :confused: But a good idea for sure.

I have read their reasoning, and I think it is safe to say that many of us who are still upset have as well. Here are the problems, from what I have thought up:

1) I do not believe the fact that allowing people to opt out of mod collections would break the tool, especially since many mod authors have said that their problem isn't with the Collections, its the inability to delete their own damn files. Many mod authors have asserted that this inability is the only problem they have with this system, but NexusMods is refusing to budge, so as they say, we have unfortunately reached an impasse.

2. Granted, I am not yet a mod author. But IMO this is about so much more than inconveniencing mod authors. It is about blatantly disrespecting our boundaries as artists, even while knowing full well how much time it can take to make a mod. I've even seen people allege that these changes are against the law.

3) On the one hand, it is understandable that they may not have answers about something that they have not planned out fully yet. What is not understandable is the fact that despite this, and despite knowing that mod authors would protest vehemently, they instituted the changes anyways. I would think it would be very reasonable to expect that NexusMods give its users a clear picture of what, exactly, they are asking us to contribute to before giving us as little as a month to make a decision between potentially forfeiting our access to the audience of the largest moddding website and losing control of the product of their blood, sweat, and tears.

Edited July 21, 2021 by KamariBVB

[showler]

They knew that "opt-out" and "deletions" would not be viable with their plans when they first explored this idea during the NMM days. Those things won't change no matter how they work out the details.

[SwedishElk]

I have read their reasoning, and I think it is safe to say that many of us who are still upset have as well. Here are the problems, from what I have thought up:

1) I do not believe the fact that allowing people to opt out of mod collections would break the tool, especially since many mod authors have said that their problem isn't with the Collections, its the inability to delete their own damn files. Many mod authors have asserted that this inability is the only problem they have with this system, but NexusMods is refusing to budge, so as they say, we have unfortunately reached an impasse.

2. Granted, I am not yet a mod author. But IMO this is about so much more than inconveniencing mod authors. It is about blatantly disrespecting our boundaries as artists, even while knowing full well how much time it can take to make a mod. I've even seen people allege that these changes are against the law.

3) On the one hand, it is understandable that they may not have answers about something that they have not planned out fully yet. What is not understandable is the fact that despite this, and despite knowing that mod authors would protest vehemently, they instituted the changes anyways. I would think it would be very reasonable to expect that NexusMods give its users a clear picture of what, exactly, they are asking us to contribute to before giving us as little as a month to make a decision between potentially forfeiting our access to the audience of the largest moddding website and losing control of the product of their blood, sweat, and tears.

 

I agree, this is about IP, the author should have full control over there work. Like I said before, this is a Facebook step, we own what you publish.

[KamariBVB]

They knew that "opt-out" and "deletions" would not be viable with their plans when they first explored this idea during the NMM days.ÃÂ Those things won't change no matter how they work out the details.

Respectfully: bulls***. At least in terms of the option to opt out. You said yourself that it would be easy to implement that, they just don't want to. I can't help but think based on the post they made is that the reason they do not want to is because they will probably make more money with the setup they're planning now. See, that's the problem, though: it is not their content to profit off of like this. It says in the TOS that mod authors retain ownership of the files they upload, but wtf is the point of having ownership if they get to do whatever they want with files no matter what we say or want?

Edited July 21, 2021 by KamariBVB

[showler]

You can't opt out of rival systems.

[KamariBVB]

You can't opt out of rival systems.

Earlier on in this thread, you said it would be easy enough to implement an opt out collections system. The bottom line: it is possible to streamline the process of creating a load order without encouraging-and even creating the tool to allow people to-use a mod file in a manner that the owner does not approve of.

[showler]

The problem is that in order to do so they would need to put in blocks on the website that the website owner does not approve of.

 

Modders may have "built this website" by their own claims. But they don't own any of it. They don't make any decisions regarding its future. They haven't invested any money in it, they don't have any employees to look after.

 

Unless both the modder and the site owner agree that the move is mutually beneficial, then they need to split up. Because the modder cannot force Robin to do something he thinks is wrong. And apparently they can't convince him that what he wants to do is wrong.

[Ladez]

 

Something I also want to point out, and this is kind of a little more on the technical side of things in terms of computers in general. No file is ever truly deleted even when you "delete it" regardless of where on the internet you posted it. That isn't how storage typically works, all it does is remove the pointer to the files, it's essentially the equivalent of archiving. The same even occurs on your own computer. The only time a file becomes entirely inaccessible is when it's essentially been overwritten, and there is no way to be sure when that happens. It's why you can load up a recovery program and essentially undelete a file you just deleted it.

 

Yes, I'd wager most people here know how computers work. It's just much easier to say "delete that file" than it is to say "free up the space reserved for that file on the hard drive so that it may be overwritten by something else".

 

We're not asking Nexus Mods to physically reset the bytes in their storage servers, which they likely don't even have access to. We're asking them to, as you say, remove the pointer, and leave the rest to nature.