Israel, and Gaza.

[HeyYou]

Israel had no intention of being civil. If they did then they would have been willing to deal with Arafat and Fatah. Who eventually came around to accepting the 242 resolution. Since negotiations of any border chnage and withdrawing from occupied lands doesn't seem to work with Israel, they basically haven't moved an inch on 242 for the past 3 decades even when it was viable. It's all but meaningless to negotiate with them. Hence Hamas. The impression I get from Palestinians I know, is post Arafat there isn't any point with negotiations. Talking doesn't work. Basically they were fed up with being occupied by Israel.

 

"They bring these troubles down on themselves" is a bit naive and ignorant of the history of the situation. But if it makes you feel better if all a sudden a bunch of islamic fundies took over the impotent Palestinian government over night and started shooting rockets because they hate jews. Go for it.

Both sides have their issues, but, I don't really see a point in continuing here, given the insulting tone of this particular post. Have a nice day.

[Ghogiel]

Indeed. No point continuing.

[Lisnpuppy]

I was really hoping this would stay fairly on the good side. Though I understand some of the posts, I am not sure that it has always been presented in the best way.

 

If this thread is to continue I suggest everyone stay on the political issues and not the presumed personal hatred of either sides based on their religion, ethnicity or what have you. This discussion is full of possible land mines. It is almost impossible to discuss and understand many of these things without bringing say, religion into it (as we know that is something we can not do.) Calling out one side for anti-semitic hatred or arabic hatred really serves no good purpose as it can not be debated one way or another. However pointing this out os also not any meant as a presonal attack on anyone. There are stong opinions on all sides. Sticking to just the "factoids" would be best. If it continues down these dangerous paths or if the discussion is simply done at this point I will close it up. ~Lisnpuppy

[Aurielius]

Ah yes, the benevolent innocent victim rap.....just because Hamas wants to annihilate the Israeli's from the face of the earth, stash their heavy weapons amongst their own civilians and spend their aid money on tunnels instead of infrastructure improvements....one shouldn't hold them accountable for sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. A minor quick read of Hamas's mission statement versus the constitution of Israel is in order. It might be a lesson in purpose to examine what the Israeli's did with their barren patch of land since their independence versus what the Palestinians have done with theirs.

The true idiocy of this affair is that they are both Semites separated by only religion and ideology.

[Beriallord]

I haven't seen one SINGLE shred of evidence from a neutral source that proves that Hamas has stored weapons in schools, hospitals, UN facilities. Israel's claims of weapons stored in UN facilities were vehemently denied by the UN. When there are dead children laying around blown to bits, they better well be able to prove their claims beyond a reasonable doubt. And that means no less than 100% irrefutable evidence to back up their claims. And even if there were, I don't think that is justification for them to murder civilians just because those civilians occupy a building that Hamas stored weapons in. Are they too chicken **** to actually sends some troops to procure the weapons rather than drop bombs? Or would they rather blow Palestinian kids to bits by the dozens to hundreds rather than risk the neck of one of their own? If anyone is overreacting here its the Israeli government. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't fight back, or that its not within their rights to do so, but they're using extremely unnecessary force without any regards to civilian casualties. I'm sick of the neocons thinking Israel can't do anything wrong. And Fox News is partisan pro-Israel, so much for "fair and balanced" huh? Its nothing but total and complete sucking up. The Palestinian people have honestly been treated like garbage, 2nd class citizens by the Israeli government, and part of me can't really blame them for having a desire to fight back against their oppressors.

[HeyYou]

Several news agencies have reported on weapons found in UN schools. A few have also reported (with pics) Hamas rocket launchers placed outside residential buildings.

[Aurielius]

I haven't seen one SINGLE shred of evidence from a neutral source that proves that Hamas has stored weapons in schools, hospitals, UN facilities. Israel's claims of weapons stored in UN facilities were vehemently denied by the UN. When there are dead children laying around blown to bits, they better well be able to prove their claims beyond a reasonable doubt. And that means no less than 100% irrefutable evidence to back up their claims. And even if there were, I don't think that is justification for them to murder civilians just because those civilians occupy a building that Hamas stored weapons in. Are they too chicken **** to actually sends some troops to procure the weapons rather than drop bombs? Or would they rather blow Palestinian kids to bits by the dozens to hundreds rather than risk the neck of one of their own? If anyone is overreacting here its the Israeli government. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't fight back, or that its not within their rights to do so, but they're using extremely unnecessary force without any regards to civilian casualties. I'm sick of the neocons thinking Israel can't do anything wrong. And Fox News is partisan pro-Israel, so much for "fair and balanced" huh? Its nothing but total and complete sucking up. The Palestinian people have honestly been treated like garbage, 2nd class citizens by the Israeli government, and part of me can't really blame them for having a desire to fight back against their oppressors.

Ok...took me all of a one minute search to find a neutral source concerning the weapon storage in schools.

A military commander that does not utilize all the assets at his disposal to minimize his troops losses is a poor one. Second place in warfare is first loser.

Fox? This is the first time anyone has brought up Fox, no has quoted or even referred to them except you..

 

http://www.aim.org/guest-column/hamas-rockets-found-in-un-schoolagain/

 

Relevant excerpt:

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement saying he was “alarmed and outraged” by the discovery of rockets in a vacant United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA) school. He “calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.”

 

I presume the Secretary General of the UN is an unbiased credible source.

[Ghogiel]

I haven't seen one SINGLE shred of evidence from a neutral source that proves that Hamas has stored weapons in schools, hospitals, UN facilities. Israel's claims of weapons stored in UN facilities were vehemently denied by the UN.

No they haven't denied that. The UN said the 3 UN schools where weapons were found were abandoned sometime prior due to too high a risk of Israelie bombing. They also said Israel have bombed 133 schools since the start of the current conflict.

[Harbringe]

 

I haven't seen one SINGLE shred of evidence from a neutral source that proves that Hamas has stored weapons in schools, hospitals, UN facilities. Israel's claims of weapons stored in UN facilities were vehemently denied by the UN.

No they haven't denied that. The UN said the 3 UN schools where weapons were found were abandoned sometime prior due to too high a risk of Israelie bombing. They also said Israel have bombed 133 schools since the start of the current conflict.

 

 

What the UN has vehemently denied is that any UN facility has been used to fire rockets from , be they a shelter , school , hospital or any other type of UN facility . They have acknowledged that elements within the Palestinian resistance have stored small amounts of rockets within abandoned UN facilities . This also occurred prior to Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09 , wherein 1 abandoned UN school was found to contain a small amount of rockets. After Cast Lead the UN , EU and the International Court of Justice all carried out separate investigations to determine whether actual schools , hospitals or shelters had been used to fire rockets from and found no basis to that claim by the Israeli's . The point is there is a big difference between rockets being found in abandoned buildings and using that rational of having found those rockets as a basis to bomb 133 schools or certain amount of shelters or hospitals that are not abandoned .That's not precise targetting by the most advanced moral army in the world ,that's collective punishment and the whole rockets being found is just propaganda , because what your really witnessing is the infrastuctural degradation of the Palestinians as a whole and thats what collective punishment is really about.

 

Besides this whole thing started because of the deaths of 3 Israeli teens in the West Bank , 3 illegal settler teens (not that it makes their murders justified) but the Israeli's arrested over 450 people many not even from Hamas , killed 9 of them and carried out a few military strikes before any rockets had been fired , yet have ended up arresting someone who went rogue from Hamas years ago and why did they go rogue , because Hamas had agreed to work with the Palestinian Authority (Mahmoud Abbas) on negotiations for a Two State Solution. Makes alot of sense doesn't it .

 

This is a game of narratives (propaganda) and its obvious that many of you have chosen to listen to only one narrative. During the lead up to full blown hostilites Hamas held a news conference wherein they denied having had anything to do with the murders of the 3 teens and because of the actions of Israel (arrests , killings , etc) that they were now in a state of armed conflict , the only difference between them and the Israeli's is that at their news conference not one western based media organization bothered to show , not one . Hence only one narrative.

 

So here's a couple of videos from those who see things differently than you . One from a Palestinian perspective in general and the other an interview from the leader of Hamas on the current state of affairs .

 

[HeyYou]

Well, then we have this article, and this one, and this one..... That are all saying differently. A UN official actually ADMITTING that Hamas has been firing rockets from exactly the areas the IDF has been claiming.There are numerous others. Feel free to look them up yourself.