Israel, and Gaza.

[JimboUK]

 

There are calls from within Netanyahu's cabinet for it and the former head of Shabak has also called for Gaza to be reoccupied, it'll be messy on the ground and politically but it's the only way to deal with Hamas, get rid of them and Israel can leave again. As for Obama, someone did do a lot better, the Egyptians, they made headway while Obama had Kerry sucking up to his Brotherhood pals.

Even if the world accepts the invasion, and full reoccupation, what happens after Israel leaves? Poverty, desperation, ignorance and fanaticism are driving forces in Gaza. I doubt that Israel has the ability, or even will power, to fix up the profound problems of Gaza and its people. As for Obama, he is just one man even if he is the US President and making him a scapegoat will do nothing because it is going to take the positive efforts of many to solve this deep, very long term problem. Any kind of scapegoating leads away from a possible solution whether it be from any political perspective; I used to be a narrow focused left winger but I left that behind and am not about to take up any other kind of such thinking. Positivity is needed and so is hope!

 

 

Who's causing the poverty? there is plenty of money going in there from the international community and Israel sends tons of aid in, the poverty is caused by Hamas who'd rather spend the money on rockets than on the population, the UN build schools and hospitals and Hamas use them as missile sites, free the Palestinians from Hamas and then we might get somewhere.

 

@Ihoe Israel is a bastion of democracy in that region, Israeli Jews do not get preference over Israeli Arabs, people can worship whatever they want, they're free to protest and speak their minds, it's no different to any other western nation and in complete contrast to the way Hamas run things. If Hamas don't want what dead Palestinians then they should stop using them as human shields, they're quite willing to sacrifice their people for some anti Israeli propaganda and the liberal press in the west lap that propaganda up. Israel has the right to defend itself, no nation would just sit there and do nothing while rockets rain down on it's people, if Hamas want peace then they shouldn't start wars.

[HeyYou]

 

 

There are calls from within Netanyahu's cabinet for it and the former head of Shabak has also called for Gaza to be reoccupied, it'll be messy on the ground and politically but it's the only way to deal with Hamas, get rid of them and Israel can leave again. As for Obama, someone did do a lot better, the Egyptians, they made headway while Obama had Kerry sucking up to his Brotherhood pals.

Even if the world accepts the invasion, and full reoccupation, what happens after Israel leaves? Poverty, desperation, ignorance and fanaticism are driving forces in Gaza. I doubt that Israel has the ability, or even will power, to fix up the profound problems of Gaza and its people. As for Obama, he is just one man even if he is the US President and making him a scapegoat will do nothing because it is going to take the positive efforts of many to solve this deep, very long term problem. Any kind of scapegoating leads away from a possible solution whether it be from any political perspective; I used to be a narrow focused left winger but I left that behind and am not about to take up any other kind of such thinking. Positivity is needed and so is hope!

 

 

Who's causing the poverty? there is plenty of money going in there from the international community and Israel sends tons of aid in, the poverty is caused by Hamas who'd rather spend the money on rockets than on the population, the UN build schools and hospitals and Hamas use them as missile sites, free the Palestinians from Hamas and then we might get somewhere.

 

@Ihoe Israel is a bastion of democracy in that region, Israeli Jews do not get preference over Israeli Arabs, people can worship whatever they want, they're free to protest and speak their minds, it's no different to any other western nation and in complete contrast to the way Hamas run things. If Hamas don't want what dead Palestinians then they should stop using them as human shields, they're quite willing to sacrifice their people for some anti Israeli propaganda and the liberal press in the west lap that propaganda up. Israel has the right to defend itself, no nation would just sit there and do nothing while rockets rain down on it's people, if Hamas want peace then they shouldn't start wars.

 

Exactly. You don't get peace by firing rockets. You don't get open borders by spending all your money on weapons to launch at your neighbors. You don't get sanctions lifted by exhibiting the very behavior that got those sanctions put in place to begin with.

 

Hamas is the biggest problem in Gaza.

[Ghogiel]

No one here should be that misinformed to be talking about rockets recently launched by Hamas as a start to the conflict. It's just been on various cease fires for the past 60 odd years. It's the same Arab-Israeli war.

People see what is happening now as disconnected to British mandate, zionist terror bombings and Israels state expansionism and subjugation of Palestinians over the last century.

 

Additionally Hamas doesn't want peace. It wants Israel to f*** off. Israel never wanted peace either and has been in a state of war and aggressive action against all Arabs in the area, least of all palestinians. Displacing then penning Palestinians and then annexing lands and continually fighting a war for the last 60 odd years doesn't get one peace either.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ghogiel

[Aurielius]

No one here should be that misinformed to be talking about rockets recently launched by Hamas as a start to the conflict. It's just been on various cease fires for the past 60 odd years. It's the same Arab-Israeli war.

 

People see what is happening now as disconnected to British mandate, zionist terror bombings and Israels state expansionism and subjugation of Palestinians over the last century.

 

Additionally Hamas doesn't want peace. It wants Israel to f*** off. Israel never wanted peace either and has been in a state of war and aggressive action against all Arabs in the area, least of all palestinians. Displacing then penning Palestinians and then annexing lands and continually fighting a war for the last 60 odd years doesn't get one peace either.

Though I tend to agree about the continuing legacy of the Palestinian Mandate by GB is irrefutable. Where we part company is the concept that the Israeli's have any other option than to respond to hostile attacks whether by Arab States or Muslim terrorists. Lets face it, in an imperfect world Israel is closer to a western democracy than it's opponents. We in the west better get a grip on this, fundamental radical Islam is antithetical to western values. The extremists have already picked a side in this global war, our current fearless leaders are dithering along hoping for an unrealistic politically correct outcome given the actual facts on the ground. It seems the biography of Neville Chamberlain was never on their reading list.

[Ghogiel]

Non Secular. Nationalist. Think they are gods choosen people. Hard Propaganda. Youth indoctrination. Expansionist. Sure hope that doesn't resemble western states. And democracy doesn't say much. Even China has elections ffs. And in particular the idea of democracy in the US is as ironic as it is in China.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ghogiel

[HeyYou]

And that could accurately describe Gaza as well. The only 'real' difference that I see is, Israel doesn't have a published mandate to destroy Gaza/Palestine/whatever.

 

Yes, both sides are to blame. Israeli policies as much as palestinian/hamas policies. From where I am sitting, NEITHER side wants peace. For Israel, that would mean established borders, which would seriously curtail their settlement building, and expansion. For Palestine/Hamas, that would mean having to learn to live with Israel as a neighbor. I don't see that EVER happening. This is a war that WILL continue, until one side, or the other, is completely gone. I really don't have any desire to see an islamist state come to be in the middle east, although, ISIS is trying pretty hard to make that a reality. That is the LAST thing the world needs.....

[Maharg67]

Hamas does spend funds on people if only to win 'hearts and minds'.

 

Israeli democracy is far from perfect given the odd nature of many of its laws and the very powerful influence that fanatical Judaism, and Zionism, has had on the forming of the nation.

 

Generalizations are easy to believe in and to promote but they are more likely to muddy any real awareness of a situation than to clarify it.

 

Take deeper research into both sides, their histories, the history of their interaction, and then the simple views of a very complicated historical based problems will seem less true, less useful.

 

If you want to see the truth, then first take out the filters from your own eyes. I have done this and the world, for me, is both more amazing and more fearful.

 

PS: Being wary of Zionism is not being antisemitic. I have had this accusation aimed at me before.

[Ihoe]

 

 

There are calls from within Netanyahu's cabinet for it and the former head of Shabak has also called for Gaza to be reoccupied, it'll be messy on the ground and politically but it's the only way to deal with Hamas, get rid of them and Israel can leave again. As for Obama, someone did do a lot better, the Egyptians, they made headway while Obama had Kerry sucking up to his Brotherhood pals.

Even if the world accepts the invasion, and full reoccupation, what happens after Israel leaves? Poverty, desperation, ignorance and fanaticism are driving forces in Gaza. I doubt that Israel has the ability, or even will power, to fix up the profound problems of Gaza and its people. As for Obama, he is just one man even if he is the US President and making him a scapegoat will do nothing because it is going to take the positive efforts of many to solve this deep, very long term problem. Any kind of scapegoating leads away from a possible solution whether it be from any political perspective; I used to be a narrow focused left winger but I left that behind and am not about to take up any other kind of such thinking. Positivity is needed and so is hope!

 

Who's causing the poverty? there is plenty of money going in there from the international community and Israel sends tons of aid in, the poverty is caused by Hamas who'd rather spend the money on rockets than on the population, the UN build schools and hospitals and Hamas use them as missile sites, free the Palestinians from Hamas and then we might get somewhere.

 

@Ihoe Israel is a bastion of democracy in that region, Israeli Jews do not get preference over Israeli Arabs, people can worship whatever they want, they're free to protest and speak their minds, it's no different to any other western nation and in complete contrast to the way Hamas run things. If Hamas don't want what dead Palestinians then they should stop using them as human shields, they're quite willing to sacrifice their people for some anti Israeli propaganda and the liberal press in the west lap that propaganda up. Israel has the right to defend itself, no nation would just sit there and do nothing while rockets rain down on it's people, if Hamas want peace then they shouldn't start wars.

 

 

Well, I'm not going to repeat all the valid points presented by other posters in contrast to yours. But did Israel Really Have to bomb UN shelters? Sure I know the UN is one Big Joke but one cannot criticize vilification when actions committed by one side are rightly wrong.

 

Please just don't reiterate the retarded "Human Shield" argument. when You bomb non-combatant people in a state of war you don't bring up terrible excuses. That is just a lame response by Israel Paraphrasing "We Don't give a **ck what you think. This is what we're gonna do."

 

I don't see how people are taking sides in this situation. Killing innocents is Wrong no matter where you are, what your ideals are, or what you hope to achieve.

 

Ideals like Democracy, Socialism... blah blah blah, which are presented by the media (read Modern Propaganda) are just modern forms of indoctrination. the Brainwashing that causes people to take sides in a conflict that they naturally should not have any interest in. Sure Israel is a democracy, But the Jews should have the power. Iran is a Democracy, but the Mullahs have the Power. People are free to practice whichever Religion or whatever they want as long as it doesn't interfere with the interests of those in power. Democracy is one big Fallacy, a word invented by a fantasy nation who actually Called Women cowardly Dogs (as Stated by Aristotle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle's_views_on_women . a trait which he also attributed to their Big Neighbors the Persians "Like Women") and kept them inside hot houses and made them wear veils and Kept Slaves to wash their greasy nether regions.

 

I live in Canada. where I pay 13% additional fee for Toilet paper, I pay 50% of my income every year in taxes because "F**k you, Citizen. This is the Law. Because it's the Law it does not Contradict the Doctrine of western Democracy. Work harder.". I pay 13% additional Hard-Earned money to wipe my a** so that a clean shaven Monkey Called Stephen Harper can send it to Israel (instead of, like, improving the sh*tty overpriced public transport, building shelters for people who need it or blah blah blah), take away my citizenship any time he wants because he's in power and Canada is a motherf**king western democracy, right? (King Democracy, Like the democratic nation of UK, wait a sec, Commonwealth of nations? British people talking about the validity of western democracy? what the **ck, am I seeing this or am I going bat-sh*t insane?! talk about that the next time you see the queen. because, That is kinda paradoxical) People voted for him and that allows him to bash racist pamphlets in my face every time I take a dump in the university. At least I can use those pamphlets as toilet paper. Harper is destroying the Awesome nation of Canada. The only place in the world that All Colors of Benetton can Live without trouble. Well, Until this Shaven Monkey came.

 

I think I went a little rant-y-not-so-useful-to-other-people in there. But God this has been itching me for a while.

[HeyYou]

It is a proven fact that Hamas launches rockets from civilian-populated areas. This includes schools (UN, or not), Hospitals, and Apartment buildings. Are you trying to suggest that Israel should NOT attack those sites, because it is likely to inflict civilian casualties? If that's the case, then you should also be condemning the US, for it's policy of drone strikes in Afghanistan/Pakistan, as we would regularly blow up civilian housing, because we suspected that terrorists were hiding there. More often than not, there were indeed terrorists at the targets in question, but, there were also innocent civilians, who also died.

 

I put the responsibility for the out of proportion civilian deaths squarely at the feet of Hamas. THEY are the ones launching from civilian areas, and they are well aware of what the consequences are likely going to be. Yet they continue with this same tactic, all the while screaming "WAR CRIMES"!!! It should be readily apparent that they do this ON PURPOSE, SPECIFICALLY so civilians will die. They know they have zero chance of winning anything at all militarily, so, they fight their battles in the courts of public opinion, counting on the outrage of the world at the high body count of civilians.

 

No, I have zero sympathy for Gaza/Hamas here. They bring these troubles down on themselves.

[Ghogiel]

Israel had no intention of being civil. If they did then they would have been willing to deal with Arafat and Fatah. Who eventually came around to accepting the 242 resolution. Since negotiations of any border chnage and withdrawing from occupied lands doesn't seem to work with Israel, they basically haven't moved an inch on 242 for the past 3 decades even when it was viable. It's all but meaningless to negotiate with them. Hence Hamas. The impression I get from Palestinians I know, is post Arafat there isn't any point with negotiations. Talking doesn't work. Basically they were fed up with being occupied by Israel.

 

"They bring these troubles down on themselves" is a bit naive and ignorant of the history of the situation. But if it makes you feel better if all a sudden a bunch of islamic fundies took over the impotent Palestinian government over night and started shooting rockets because they hate jews. Go for it.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Ghogiel