Regarding Site Listed as Pirate Site and more.

[Arthmoor]

I did not compare downloads to downloads. Nexus is huge and that would be silly. What I compared were the forums where the communities participate. They have a more active community than we do. I never said they have more mods or get more downloads. I understand the community side of Nexus is less important than the individual game sections where people download and upload.

You appear to have missed the point being made. Nexus has a separate forum section which looks much like any other IPB based site out there. It shows only the traffic of people using the forums at any given moment.

 

LL, and indeed every other regularly configured IPB based site with the downloads module, lists *ALL* traffic. Even those who merely logged in to grab files and leave. Quite a different thing entirely. And yes, I run such an IPB based site, so I've seen traffic stats exactly like this that would make people think the site is far more active than it really is. :tongue:

 

If the forums here showed all the people currently logged on who were only downloading files, I suspect something would choke because the list would be too long to display or something.

[aeonthraen]

I've been sitting on the sidelines of this debate for about a year now and I think its time we really need to address the real problem. Yes I agree that LL NEEDS to put up an Age Block of somekind. Many adult oriented sites do this and for good reason (I'd flip go ape**** crazy if I found my theoretical 8 year old son/daughter checking out a site like that). I have to ask Dark0ne though; if they put up an age restriction is there the possibility of reconciliation? Reason I bring that up is a simple verse;

 

"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." -Matthew 12:25

 

Reason I said that is quite simple. Quite frankly Dark0ne and the moderators here should have seen the danger of what almost happened not 3 months ago. I think you did but it seems to have been lost in the traffic or outright ignored and that troubles me. The modding community was borderline made redundant by the corporate entities of Steam and Bethesda.net. This wasn't simply testing to see something works...it was probing. An attempt to perhaps monopolize a potential market in charging for mods. Bethesda not 100% to blame for this (a good portion of their workforce and development team feel charging for mods made by third parties would alienate a lot of people) but there's still a corporate entity that would love nothing more than to milk the modding community. EA does this simply with DLC content and its disgusting.

 

Why I bring it up is my attempt to offer an olive branch between both communities. We CANNOT be a divided community on this because THIS is not a dead subject. They were simply testing the waters. Now thank heavens nothing extreme happened but as AngryJoe implies this is Corporate Commander at his worst. The devil is in the details my friends. Sure they backed off once the outcry was pretty apparent...but its not a dead subject. They WILL try again. The modding community is a potential milk cow and they're dying to put it into the dairy. We can't afford to have petty disagreements and name calling over who's website is better or worse. We have a darker shadow looming over the horizon and unless both communities work together, the potential for mod making will become a thing of the past as both could potentially be dismantled in favor a corporate entity that wants to charge for a mod made for a certain game. Would you like to pay $12.30 (77% of that going to Corporate Commander) that you not only downloaded but potentially made yourself? Of course not, nobody would. That's like being charged an extra $30 for a BLT you already ate! Some will say this is just conspiracy theory but it does have merit.

 

Dark0ne, LadyMilla, Arthmoor...every moderator and mod maker on the Nexus and abroad I'm begging you; please we cannot be divided on this. If we continue to bicker with LL over petty disagreements (don't kid yourself BOTH sides are guilty of some pretty childish antics) we'll completely ignore the very serious threat that is beginning to rear its butt ugly head. Remember the quote of the Arthashastra;

 

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." I don't want to see the Nexus become, "This mod will cost you $1.99 to download; please input your credit card number and billing address."

[Dark0ne]

Yes, I've already said as much.

 

I feel the point you've raised about the demise of free and open modding is a bit moot in regards to this topic. Irrespective of whether Nexus and LL (and ModDB, Curse, FPSBanana, etc.) stand together on the topic and/or disagree with Bethesda, it's completely out of our hands. We really have no influence over Bethesda's decision to monetise modding. The only reason why it halted last time was because Valve got cold feet over the issue. If Bethesda's blog post mere hours before Valve pulled the plug is anything to go by, they couldn't give two hoots about how the community feels about this topic, probably because the money they'll make from it will be worth the short-term hassle they'll receive from it.

 

The only thing we can do is present valid arguments for keeping a free and open modding community going. Considering Bethesda's track record on listening to their community, I really wouldn't count on them listening to us and the only reason they'd do it is if they saw it as being in their best interests.

[WursWaldo]

@Dark0ne

Have you considered opening a dialogue with the owner of LL concerning the Nexus blacklisting? If linking to that site is something you both want then talking about it would be the most expedient way to make it happen. If LL not having an age gate is the only issue, that can be resolved in a matter of hours. He installs the correct IP Board plugin for content warning or age verify, he informs you of the change, you remove the word filter and blacklist for LL. From what I can gleam from your posts in this thread the lack of an age gate is the sole reason for the black list. If there are other issues preventing this, those could be addressed as well. If this is something you both want it is easy to accomplish.

Concerning fans sites as a unified front against Zenimax’s monetized modding; that is a fantasy imo and not a valid reason for game sites to unite. If monetized modding is tenable people will participate. I believe Bethesda.net will have their own forums and servers both backed by a multi-million dollar corporation. Bethesda.net will be a beast and they will hold a monopoly on paid modding; from the software to mod PC games, the utility to convert mods to XBoxOne, to the distribution platforms for both, they will control it all. If you haven’t been offered the service provider slot like you were previously the hand writing is on the wall.

[Dark0ne]

If the LL admins are bothered about it (they don't seem to have been the past few years!) then I'm always a PM away.

[WursWaldo]

The one question I would ask myself is, “What do I have to gain?” If placating members is the only upside there is no reason to do it. Will it increase your site traffic? Will it add new members? If it does, how many of them will purchase premium memberships? How much unnecessary internet drama will it foment? et cetera. From a business standpoint, is there a payout for you and Nexus? If there isn’t one, it’s not worth considering.

[aeonthraen]

Yes, I've already said as much.

 

I feel the point you've raised about the demise of free and open modding is a bit moot in regards to this topic. Irrespective of whether Nexus and LL (and ModDB, Curse, FPSBanana, etc.) stand together on the topic and/or disagree with Bethesda, it's completely out of our hands. We really have no influence over Bethesda's decision to monetise modding. The only reason why it halted last time was because Valve got cold feet over the issue. If Bethesda's blog post mere hours before Valve pulled the plug is anything to go by, they couldn't give two hoots about how the community feels about this topic, probably because the money they'll make from it will be worth the short-term hassle they'll receive from it.

 

The only thing we can do is present valid arguments for keeping a free and open modding community going. Considering Bethesda's track record on listening to their community, I really wouldn't count on them listening to us and the only reason they'd do it is if they saw it as being in their best interests.

That in itself is troubling. I'm glad to see Valve hasn't lost its sense of self respect in this problem but Bethesda (a company I have long loved) is in danger of becoming another statistic; that money is more important than their customers. We can see this with recent Pre-Order tier system Square-Enix developed for Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. It's actually really disgusting. I thought they were better than that. You're absolutely right Dark0ne; we need to produce compelling statistics and scores on how much better the current system is vs a paid mod system. That requires not just the Nexus as a whole but ALL COMMUNITIES. This could be the olive branch we've been waiting for.

 

The majority of mod development I would wager needs to bring their entire download history forward. This would include not only Nexus but every mod development site on the web if possible. I know that seems like a big undertaking but this is actually a very dangerous situation for the modding community abroad. Desperate times call for desperate measures. People buy games like Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim, Oblivion and even Morrowind FOR THE MODS. This alone is proof that converting to a paid mod system could potentially cripple the industry Bethesda has created over night. In light of that...hmm...it MIGHT be prudent to wait at this point. Let the dice fall as they will I would say. Reason is because we don't have the proper stats on Sales vs Marketing. If Bethesda is made aware that upcoming data indicating a loss in sales because of the advent of paid mods, it'll make them back up faster than a PortaPotty at a BBQ event.

 

Okay so it might be in the best interest of waiting to see what happens that way we can garner the data we need. Still Dark0ne...this animosity between Nexus and LL is not only unbecoming but very sad. Sure there are mods over there that have...ahem...questionable morals but there's a lot of talent over there that literally got told, "F*** OFF," either because of jealously or spite. I'm not pointing fingers (I don't resort to making accusations) but there are a lot of disgruntled people over there that feel they've been treated unfairly.

Edited September 3, 2015 by aeonthraen

[LadyMilla]

People buy games like Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim, Oblivion and even Morrowind FOR THE MODS.

 

 

Bethesda disagrees. They said:

 

Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one.

 

 

That means they spend resources on releasing and supporting modding tools that are used only by 1% (and benefit only 8%) of their player base. Now put on your CFO hat and draw your conclusions.

[Dark0ne]

They'd obviously only been checking the Skyrim Workshop stats to come to that figure as I had no email from them asking for detailed stats to help them in their research. Another set back in a string of "Valve/Steam Workshop is all our community is about" blunders from Bethesda. For comparison, the most popular mod on Skyrim Workshop has 1.53 million unique page views, the most popular mod on Skyrim Nexus has 8 million unique downloads (probably the closest thing to compare rather than "subscribers").

 

Only benefit they get from only checking Skyrim Workshop and nothing else is the fact they can be guaranteed the Skyrim Workshop stats aren't polluted by pirates since anyone using Skyrim Workshop must have bought the game legally. Still, a massively misleading statistic where they haven't clarified either their statistic source or whether they're talking about PC Skyrim players or all Skyrim players across all platforms, which would obviously skew that figure massively. If that figure did included console players, which you can safely ignore simply because they can't mod their game, then you'd be looking at a figure that says over 50% of PC Skyrim players have modded their game. That then becomes a very impressive figure.

[LadyMilla]

They'd obviously only been checking the Skyrim Workshop stats to come to that figure as I had no email from them asking for detailed stats to help them in their research. Another set back in a string of "Valve/Steam Workshop is all our community is about" blunders from Bethesda. For comparison, the most popular mod on Skyrim Workshop has 1.53 million unique page views, the most popular mod on Skyrim Nexus has 8 million unique downloads (probably the closest thing to compare rather than "subscribers").

 

Only benefit they get from only checking Skyrim Workshop and nothing else is the fact they can be guaranteed the Skyrim Workshop stats aren't polluted by pirates since anyone using Skyrim Workshop must have bought the game legally. Still, a massively misleading statistic where they haven't clarified either their statistic source or whether they're talking about PC Skyrim players or all Skyrim players across all platforms, which would obviously skew that figure massively. If that figure did included console players, which you can safely ignore simply because they can't mod their game, then you'd be looking at a figure that says over 50% of PC Skyrim players have modded their game. That then becomes a very impressive figure.

 

Apparently they are using those bad estimates and, as a result, they have a distorted view of their consumer base. I think it is more than likely that they disregard download figures from unofficial modding sites/blogs/forums, etc. (which is a mistake), in the same way they tend to disregard community opinion (which is also a mistake). Steam Workshop figures are misleading for several reasons: it was patch 1.9.36 in April that enabled the CK to upload master files (and a lot of mods require master files), but still any script extender based mods, e.g. those based on physics extension plugins (physics based hair, etc.) are excluded. Before patch 1.9.36, mods bigger than 100 MB were also excluded. So when I wrote "put on your CFO hat", I meant that their actions/statements, including their views about paid modding, should be judged on the basis of those figures. I wonder if they realize that their statistics are way off the mark, or if they intentionally use figures for some agenda.