Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[fknye]

Seems unfair to those of us who don't mod Bethesda games.

[Lisnpuppy]

Here is what I believe and this is not my thoughts or wishes but what we know.

 

Mods will be monetized. That will be done through Beth's own new and shiny site as they want the piece of the pie. it will not be donations-make no mistake. The donation system here at the Nexus is different and separate from the Beth.net. Will they still allow donations after that time? We don't know. Will Beth get involved in pricing? Again, we don't know. Will Beth or anyone be accountable for mod quality? We do not know. If the mod is freely shared there is really no expectations on anyone's part beyond release. If you may for something, regardless of how minimal the amount...then having standards are nice.

 

Will Beth allow for The Nexus and free modding to continue-I think yes to a point. I believe if you release a mod there, for the money, you can not go and put it up free elsewhere. If you want to share it free, I don't think they will stop that...at least not in the foreseeable future.

 

Will Beth allow modders to have things like the Patreon? I doubt it, again this is about making money.

 

As for the entire question of should modders get paid, want to be paid, are they evil-succubus worshiping people if they do...

 

I know how hard it is to make any kind of mod at all. Just learning the necessary skills takes time and sometimes money. Being of the staff side of this place I have see exactly how the mod authors are often treated about their mods. As to how good they are, what they "should" have done, the "hey bro, make it exactly like I say and I might toss you an endoresement."

 

I think of it like this, it would be nice if this stayed free forever-but it isn't going to and I am shocked it lasted so long. But mods are a bit of an art form. Like being able to paint or draw or whatever. Maybe you don't have a "job" doing this-it is a hobby. People offer you the ability to get a bit of money for doing some work. Then maybe you can put your painting in your friend's craft store to sell with a few bucks going their way. Its a bit of cash but nothing to live on. Maybe you still do some free stuff for friends. Still today ever little dollar helps, right?

 

Will I be able to afford the amount of mods I currently have-I very much doubt it. I can't afford a great many things but I don;t abuse people for trying to make money off their talent. Just because I maybe would not or so-and-so doesn't, I won't begrudge them one damn dime. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what they can or can not accept.

 

Regardless I won't call mod authors out for it. I won't think of them as less for it, or more for it either. It just IS. It will happen and there are just not enough folks against it to do that anyway. Add to the console modding and there is already a mindset there for buying things and microtransactions. If all the PC people stopped playing it really wouldn't make Beth loose much sleep-and why is that? Because the people that decide such things are trying to make money. That is why paid modding will happen. Not becuase Beth wants to do a good-deed to modders. Not because they want to screw over the little man. It is how capitalism works. You see a need, you provide that need and make money to go do other fun things with.

 

The only thing all these conversations of who is right and wrong and the how dare you-the only thing they are doing is making modding a whole less fun. I am not going to live someone's life and tell them what to do. I got three kids for that *har!* If you don't want to participate in paid modding then don't, you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. You want to put free mods out-then do and awesome. But stop behaving worse that bossy little children who think they know what motivates people or thinks they know how it all should work and demands that it be thus. Have a bit of decorum and kindness. If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything.

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

[saint909]

In response to post #28655914. #28656504, #28662504, #28666864 are all replies on the same post.

sheson wrote:

 

In response to post #28651299.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

 

 

I fail to see how anyone is strong armed creating something for free so others can get rich?

macintroll wrote: I'm not sure to understand what you mean ?

okroulek wrote: If you want a seat at the economic table, go work as one of the aforementioned types of industry programmers, marketing specialists, etc. Modding, that is the creation of modded content, is not a professional gaming role. The users have showed no interest in paying for what has in the past been free content. If that should change, I for one, would simply create my own mods ,for personal use, using the same tools. I don't spend but maybe $150 a year on gaming products. None of that would go towards paying for mods when I could get whole games instead. I love mods, and I appreciate the hard work people put forth to produce these mods, but I'm with CardTaken on this one.

Arthmoor wrote: Actually, the users HAVE shown interest. $25K worth in 2 days even. Expand that out to a monthly thing, and you can see that this isn't going to go away, and the minority (vocal as they may be) opposed to this simply aren't going to stop it in the end.

People whined about DLC when Bethesda first dropped that bomb on the market. Barely anyone makes a peep now. People whined about microtransactions in MMOs. It's the norm now. People whined about the hat market in TF2. Clearly that settled down, and is making serious money according to Valve. The same will hold true for paid mods. Some people are whining. Given enough time, it will be the norm.

The silent majority who pay for these things will just do so and ignore pretty much everything said about it. I'd wager most of them aren't even aware there was a debate about any of the things I mentioned. They number in the millions. They are the target audience.

In the immortal words of Agent Smith:

I can tell you that if paid mods become a legitimate thing then I, for one, will no longer play with additional mods; I'll keep what I already have installed and deal with what I currently have. I will not under any circumstances be forced to pay for someone's [hobby] regardless of if I am able to create my own mods or not.

Modding is not a business so it should not be treated as such; supporting someone you think deserves it is one thing; allowing half-assed mod authors to put disastrous mods on a market is a convoluted idea. Regardless of if it might follow previous trends as mentioned before, there are still those who will not be as silent as the rest. Edited September 13, 2015 by saint909

[Gopher]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744, #28671734 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

HadToRegister wrote: NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

"Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job."

And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28655914. #28656504, #28662504, #28666864, #28671969 are all replies on the same post.

sheson wrote:

 

In response to post #28651299.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

 

 

I fail to see how anyone is strong armed creating something for free so others can get rich?

macintroll wrote: I'm not sure to understand what you mean ?

okroulek wrote: If you want a seat at the economic table, go work as one of the aforementioned types of industry programmers, marketing specialists, etc. Modding, that is the creation of modded content, is not a professional gaming role. The users have showed no interest in paying for what has in the past been free content. If that should change, I for one, would simply create my own mods ,for personal use, using the same tools. I don't spend but maybe $150 a year on gaming products. None of that would go towards paying for mods when I could get whole games instead. I love mods, and I appreciate the hard work people put forth to produce these mods, but I'm with CardTaken on this one.

Arthmoor wrote: Actually, the users HAVE shown interest. $25K worth in 2 days even. Expand that out to a monthly thing, and you can see that this isn't going to go away, and the minority (vocal as they may be) opposed to this simply aren't going to stop it in the end.

People whined about DLC when Bethesda first dropped that bomb on the market. Barely anyone makes a peep now. People whined about microtransactions in MMOs. It's the norm now. People whined about the hat market in TF2. Clearly that settled down, and is making serious money according to Valve. The same will hold true for paid mods. Some people are whining. Given enough time, it will be the norm.

The silent majority who pay for these things will just do so and ignore pretty much everything said about it. I'd wager most of them aren't even aware there was a debate about any of the things I mentioned. They number in the millions. They are the target audience.

In the immortal words of Agent Smith:

saint909 wrote: I can tell you that if paid mods become a legitimate thing then I, for one, will no longer play with additional mods; I'll keep what I already have installed and deal with what I currently have. I will not under any circumstances be forced to pay for someone's [hobby] regardless of if I am able to create my own mods or not.

Modding is not a business so it should not be treated as such; supporting someone you think deserves it is one thing; allowing half-assed mod authors to put disastrous mods on a market is a convoluted idea. Regardless of if it might follow previous trends as mentioned before, there are still those who will not be as silent as the rest.

What a horrible future. I'm glad I have like 5+ years of backlog.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744, #28671734 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.

When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.

If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.

If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

 

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

 

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

 

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

 

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

 

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s*** they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

 

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

 

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

 

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.

I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

 

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.

(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)

Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

 

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

 

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.

1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.

2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.

3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.

They are just not my cup of tea.

 

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.

I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

 

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

 

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

 

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

 

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

 

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16

THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

 

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

 

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

 

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.

Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

 

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )

I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.

Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...

 

 

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

 

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

 

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.

The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.

I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.

And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.

A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16

You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko

Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

 

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

 

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

HadToRegister wrote: NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

 

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

 

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

 

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

 

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

"Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job."

 

And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business.

 

 

And with this grand apex of work and play, what becomes apparent is the importance of what kind of business it is. One thing we have come to know about the free market is that it is very expensive.

 

What I see as a potential issue is if one has to pay to do the hobby, in order to get the job so as to be paid.

[Fireblossom]

What surprised me most in paid mods incident was that so many modders just let Bethesda trample over them. I'm not opposed to modders making money, but all money I donate should go straight to modders, Bethesda deserves NO cut. I think we should focus on "what should" than "what is". "what should" is what makes the world a better place, not "what is". It really upsets me so many people still spoke as if they were slaves to the big cooperations. We should hold our grounds in modding community. We should not just accept whatever Beth decides to throw at us. And to be fair, Bethesda's games are full of bugs and issues, they always are. And they have the audacity to demand a cut in something that makes their games ten time better? I don't know about you, but I'm NOT OK with that. Well, the sad thing is, there's just not enough people to oppose monetized modding, so they may succeed next time. THAT is something we should really think about.

As for " If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything", I think this kind of attitude is part of what caused the rift between modders and mod users. There are too many modders taking offense on negative comments rather than just listen and learn from them. Some modders don't even respect mod users at all and treat them like lesser beings. I for one, will not use anything they make no matter how good they are, and will not miss them in a tiny bit if they decide to leave and make business out of their hobby. So, if I don't have anything nice to say, I will still say it, and say it out loud ( I don't mean insults and calling names, which I will never abide), because it's my born right.If you don't like my comment, don't read it. No one is forcing you to. :)

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28671324.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

Here is what I believe and this is not my thoughts or wishes but what we know.

 

Mods will be monetized. That will be done through Beth's own new and shiny site as they want the piece of the pie. it will not be donations-make no mistake. The donation system here at the Nexus is different and separate from the Beth.net. Will they still allow donations after that time? We don't know. Will Beth get involved in pricing? Again, we don't know. Will Beth or anyone be accountable for mod quality? We do not know. If the mod is freely shared there is really no expectations on anyone's part beyond release. If you may for something, regardless of how minimal the amount...then having standards are nice.

 

Will Beth allow for The Nexus and free modding to continue-I think yes to a point. I believe if you release a mod there, for the money, you can not go and put it up free elsewhere. If you want to share it free, I don't think they will stop that...at least not in the foreseeable future.

 

Will Beth allow modders to have things like the Patreon? I doubt it, again this is about making money.

 

As for the entire question of should modders get paid, want to be paid, are they evil-succubus worshiping people if they do...

 

I know how hard it is to make any kind of mod at all. Just learning the necessary skills takes time and sometimes money. Being of the staff side of this place I have see exactly how the mod authors are often treated about their mods. As to how good they are, what they "should" have done, the "hey bro, make it exactly like I say and I might toss you an endoresement."

 

I think of it like this, it would be nice if this stayed free forever-but it isn't going to and I am shocked it lasted so long. But mods are a bit of an art form. Like being able to paint or draw or whatever. Maybe you don't have a "job" doing this-it is a hobby. People offer you the ability to get a bit of money for doing some work. Then maybe you can put your painting in your friend's craft store to sell with a few bucks going their way. Its a bit of cash but nothing to live on. Maybe you still do some free stuff for friends. Still today ever little dollar helps, right?

 

Will I be able to afford the amount of mods I currently have-I very much doubt it. I can't afford a great many things but I don;t abuse people for trying to make money off their talent. Just because I maybe would not or so-and-so doesn't, I won't begrudge them one damn dime. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what they can or can not accept.

 

Regardless I won't call mod authors out for it. I won't think of them as less for it, or more for it either. It just IS. It will happen and there are just not enough folks against it to do that anyway. Add to the console modding and there is already a mindset there for buying things and microtransactions. If all the PC people stopped playing it really wouldn't make Beth loose much sleep-and why is that? Because the people that decide such things are trying to make money. That is why paid modding will happen. Not becuase Beth wants to do a good-deed to modders. Not because they want to screw over the little man. It is how capitalism works. You see a need, you provide that need and make money to go do other fun things with.

 

The only thing all these conversations of who is right and wrong and the how dare you-the only thing they are doing is making modding a whole less fun. I am not going to live someone's life and tell them what to do. I got three kids for that *har!* If you don't want to participate in paid modding then don't, you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. You want to put free mods out-then do and awesome. But stop behaving worse that bossy little children who think they know what motivates people or thinks they know how it all should work and demands that it be thus. Have a bit of decorum and kindness. If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything.

Sorry brah, but while I respect your opinion and your well-constructed post - I'm still gonna be critical of stuff I don't agree with. If we all just stayed silent on negative change then we'd all just get steamrolled. I mean think about it man: if I like Skyrim mods and enjoy coming to the website every day seeing what amazing new things people have made, appreciating the community built here around sharing and helping each other to all build their own personal perfect version of Skyrim, why would I want to see that change for the worse? Why wouldn't I show my disappointment, or provide my criticism for broken systems?
Yeah I don't have to be abusive to the modders, a lot of people are assholes, and a lot more were just full-on seeing red. I do think most people agree that modders were not the bad guys here, but alas - this event required them to be willful participants in something some people would love and others would hate.

If this whole controversy didn't begin then there'd be no fighting. Bethesda and Valve built the ring and put the money in the middle.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28668749. #28670729 is also a reply to the same post.

Kraynic wrote: I was traveling during the whole paid mod fiasco, and it was all over when I returned home and was reading some of the news (and following comments) on this site. There seemed to be a lot of animosity between some mod authors and users. Some mods and authors disappeared. And now it has all come round again, it seems like. I had a few thoughts (worthwhile or not).

First, there seem to be some that are angered at Dark0ne. Almost as if there is a belief that this site is something that can be run on a shoestring budget, so that any advertisement revenue should be going to mod authors. I didn't check back before starting to type this up, but I believe there have been posts in the past that talked about expenses. This is not a cheap enterprise, and then you have people like me. I finally responded to the ad placeholders that ask you to donate $2 for site upkeep to help replace lost ad revenue. Anyone that expects advertisement to pay needs to keep people like me in mind that don't turn off adblock and noscript for very many places at all. I have never seen the ads on this site. Ever. There are probably others who never bothered to pay the $2 to support the site.

Second, I wonder if people are thinking of the impact of monetizing mods. Even if you are just going for donations instead of straight up pay to use, cooperation will most likely be affected. For the most part, assets seem to be shared fairly freely here. If profit is tied in to having people using your mod, why would you be willing to share and have someone else perhaps make a more popular mod that incorporates yours that has the chance to dry up your money flow? I am thinking here of mods like IA, IJ, and LotD which are much more than borrowed work, but do incorporate other work than just done by the releasing author. Would mod authors start wanting "donations" from another author wanting to incorporate their work in another mod, or perhaps refuse to share at all?

Third, will donations be seen as mandatory, and who will determine what size a donation should be? Would it be frowned upon to donate less to "The Paarthurnax Dilemma" than to "Falskaar"? Will people be called out by mod authors for not donating enough? (I am unsure if incoming donations would be able to be tracked or anonymous, so maybe that wouldn't be a problem.) Some people have thrown out $5-$10 as being a good range, and that would be fine if you just run a few mods. That is awful spendy if you are running many at all.

And fourth, how much of the "community" will survive this? I suppose this thread is a vocal minority, but there is a fair amount of hate here. Go ahead, and scroll down through the comments. I haven't read them all and don 't intend to. From reading here, you can get the impression that all mod users are lazy idiots, and all mod authors are greedy bloodsuckers. Maybe some are. It will probably be best for all if we could do without the name calling.

I am not a mod author and am very unlikely to become one. I am (currently, can't spend too long doing one thing) an electrician that would be spending a lot more time on my music and leatherwork if it wasn't for mod authors. I have run a heavily modded game through wine on linux without any of the fancy tools other platforms enjoy, and have had some fun just learning how the files get used since I do everything manually. That being said, there is a limit or trade off on fun and expense.

I can guarantee you that as mods get monetized (I'm assuming it will happen), if I stick around using mods, that I will be paying attention to the character of mod authors as portrayed in their posts. After all, why send support to anyone you don't like/respect? Although I guess that can go both ways with mod authors removing mods as has already happened to some degree. Still, another angle for people to think about.

Mod users wouldn't have mods without the mod authors, but mod authors wouldn't have a (potentially paying) market without mod users. I believe both groups should command a little respect as a result. And... that is enough rambling from this lazy idiot of a mod user.

CynicalDriver wrote: I wouldn't call it rambling, I would call it sensible.
I also missed the whole paid mod fiasco, because I was working too much to really pay any attention to my games or their mods/modding communities. I am not a vocal member of this site at all, but I have used countless mods from here over the course of the past four years and I have seen what you are talking about.

Yes, a lot of users are idiots and could solve most of their problems by simply reading instructions or submitting proper bug reports. That said, there are authors who are helpful and others who are not. We all need each other; after all, why make mods if nobody is going to use them?

Very well said, and I agree on every single point.

Personally I think this site could survive donations a lot better than you think. Yeah some people would get into bitchfights, but the magic of donations is that it's completely voluntary: nobody gets hurt. Since the 'product' is sompletely free mods (with per this sites rules - no begging allowed) then there's no provable link between a donation and the result. Whatever money modders make here will be practically inconsequential.